If you hated Michael Moore before ...

[Master of Ossus]

Non sequitur. Just because the number of firearms per capita and the violent crime rate don't seem to correlate doesn't mean that the laxness of gun laws and violent crime are similarly unrelated.

True, although it has been shown that there is no demonstrable link between gun control laws in the United States and the crime rate, the violent crime rate or the homicide rate.

Additionally, BFC seems to demonstrate that Canadian firearms laws are laxer than those in the United States (ie. When Moore makes a big deal about how he's a foreigner but is able to purchase ammunition in Canada quickly and easily).

[Glocksman]

The scene where Moore bought ammo in Canada was either staged or was an illegal purchase under Canadian law. Foreigners purchasing ammunition in Canada must present both proper identification and a firearms borrowing or importation license.

In other words, Moore's point about how easy it was for him to buy ammo in Canada was complete bullshit.

[Master of Ossus]

The scene where Moore bought ammo in Canada was either staged or was an illegal purchase under Canadian law. Foreigners purchasing ammunition in Canada must present both proper identification and a firearms borrowing or importation license.

In other words, Moore's point about how easy it was for him to buy ammo in Canada was complete bullshit.

Regardless, I defy anyone to claim that Moore's POINT in making the scene was an effort to show that Canadian gun-control laws are not as strict as American ones.

[Durandal]

Of course not, but it concludes that firearms are not the problem, and that instead a mysterious and undefined "culture of violence" is the problem. Since no evidence is given suggesting that guns themselves are the cause of the "culture of violence" (and, in fact, evidence is presented directly contradicting that hypothesis), one must conclude from watching the film that eliminating or limiting firearms is not a potential solution.

Present them please.

ie. The statement that Canadians have about the same density of firearms than Americans, yet much lower rates of violent crime. If guns were the cause of this "culture of violence," one would expect Canada to share a similar culture in that respect because they have about the same number of firearms.

Cart before the horse. Moore says that the gun ownership rate in America is due to a culture of fear (which is at least partially legitimate), not that a high gun ownership rate causes a culture of fear to come about.

The scene where Moore bought ammo in Canada was either staged or was an illegal purchase under Canadian law. Foreigners purchasing ammunition in Canada must present both proper identification and a firearms borrowing or importation license.

In other words, Moore's point about how easy it was for him to buy ammo in Canada was complete bullshit.

So by showing how easy it was to buy ammunition in Canada ... he failed to show how easy it was to buy ammunition in Cananda? What's next? If I make a documentary about how easy it is to buy illegal drugs, are you going to say I'm full of shit because buying illegal drugs is against the law?

[His Divine Shadow]

The scene where Moore bought ammo in Canada was either staged or was an illegal purchase under Canadian law. Foreigners purchasing ammunition in Canada must present both proper identification and a firearms borrowing or importation license.

In other words, Moore's point about how easy it was for him to buy ammo in Canada was complete bullshit.

Wasn't it really meant though that canadians can easily buy ammunition, just like americans, so thats also a supportive argument for his culture-of-fear idea, that canadians also have around the same amount of guns and they have no trouble getting ammo.
It's been a while since I saw the movie.

[Glocksman]

The point is that he lied.

It's not legally possible in Canada to just walk into a Wal-Mart and buy ammo without showing ID, even for Canadians, and it's certainly not possible for an American to do so without the aforementioned licenses.

The whole scene was about how easy it was for him to just walk into a random store and buy ammo without showing ID or permits.

[Glocksman]

I meant to say:

The whole scene was about how easy it was for him to just walk into a random store and buy ammo without showing ID or permits, not about obtaining ammo illegally.

[His Divine Shadow]

I meant to say:

The whole scene was about how easy it was for him to just walk into a random store and buy ammo without showing ID or permits, not about obtaining ammo illegally.

Well yeah, this he did, because thats how it is for a canadian, which I believe was his point anyway.
It's not like I have to show ID or permit for buying ammo, that I can remember anyway...

[Glocksman]

Well yeah, this he did, because thats how it is for a canadian, which I believe was his point anyway.

But that's not how it is for a Canadian.
Canadians have to show proper ID to buy ammo.

[Durandal]

The point is that he lied.

Oh really? I don't recall him saying that Canada had no laws preventing foreigners from buying ammunition without identification, just that it was easy to do so, which he demonstrated handily.

It's not legally possible in Canada to just walk into a Wal-Mart and buy ammo without showing ID, even for Canadians, and it's certainly not possible for an American to do so without the aforementioned licenses.

Moore never mentioned anything about it being legally possible. He just did it. I refer you to my illegal drug example.

The whole scene was about how easy it was for him to just walk into a random store and buy ammo without showing ID or permits.

YES! Finally, you actually got the fucking point!

[Graeme Dice]

In other words, Moore's point about how easy it was for him to buy ammo in Canada was complete bullshit.

Incorrect. If he actually purchased the ammunition, then it demonstrates that it was easy to procure ammunition, regardless of whether it was legal for him to do so.

[Glocksman]

So you think Moore filmed both himself and the clerk violating the law?

Here's the story on the clip.

CBC story

Officials at the Canadian Firearms Centre in Edmonton say filmmaker Michael Moore misrepresented Canada during a scene in his latest documentary.

Moore's Bowling for Columbine examines gun culture in the United States. He makes several comparisions with Canada in the film.

In one scene, Moore buys ammunition at an Ontario Wal-Mart without showing any identification.

But a spokesperson for the firearms centre says anyone buying ammunition in Canada has to present proper identification.

Officials say they've sent Moore an email, asking whether he was asked to show identification or if he edited the scene from the film.

Moore hasn't commented on the controversy.

Moore either edited out presenting his paperwork, staged the scene altogether, or filmed himself violating Canadian law.

Of the three, I'd say the most likely is that it was staged altogether. He might have actually bought the ammo with the proper paperwork and edited the scene out, but then he'd have the problem of disposing of the ammo before he went back home to New York.

The least likely is that it was an illegal purchase simply because not even Michael Moore is stupid enough to film himself breaking the law unless he never intends to visit Canada again.

Oh really? I don't recall him saying that Canada had no laws preventing foreigners from buying ammunition without identification, just that it was easy to do so, which he demonstrated handily.

In the clip Moore said he was 'amazed' that a foreigner could just walk into a Wal Mart and buy ammo with no ID.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, such as the chain being shut down or prosecuted, one can presume that Wal-Mart wouldn't be blatantly violating Canadian law by selling ammo illegally.

Given a choice between believing Moore staged the buy or that Wal-Mart sells ammo illegally on a widespread basis (remember the point was how easy it was to get) in Canada, I'll believe the buy was staged.

[The Kernel]

So you have no evidence that he didn't buy the ammo besides your gut instinct. Gotcha.

[Glocksman]

So you have no evidence that he didn't buy the ammo besides your gut instinct. Gotcha.

I wouldn't call the reasonable belief based on a lack of prosecutions that Wal-Mart isn't violating Canadian gun laws on a wholesale basis 'gut instinct'.

Believing Moore's version, especially given his penchant for selective editing and his refusal to comment on the controversy, on the other hand....

[The Kernel]

I wouldn't call the reasonable belief based on a lack of prosecutions that Wal-Mart isn't violating Canadian gun laws on a wholesale basis 'gut instinct'.

The Canadian government is not obligated to prosecute every infraction. The fact is, celebrities have commited crimes on camera before without being prosecuted. And like you said, they didn't have any evidence that it wasn't a staged incident.

Believing Moore's version, especially given his penchant for selective editing and his refusal to comment on the controversy, on the other hand....

Refusal to comment to the Canadian government about an investigation on whether or not he commited a crime is not proof that he forged the scene. If you have nothing else besides that then you have nothing.

[Glocksman]

The Canadian government is not obligated to prosecute every infraction. The fact is, celebrities have commited crimes on camera before without being prosecuted. And like you said, they didn't have any evidence that it wasn't a staged incident.

No, but they certainly would prosecute if the violations were widespread and a result of a deliberate Wal-Mart policy. For it to be 'easy' for an American to buy ammo, the conspiracy to violate Canada's gun laws would have to be more widespread than a single Ontario Wal-Mart.

Unless there's a conspiracy at Wally world to thumb their noses at Canada's gun laws, it's not that easy to buy ammo.

Hell, Wally World checks ID for ammo sales here in Indiana, much less in Canada where it's the law.

Moore didn't state the sale was legal, but neither did he state it was illegal.

If it was illegal, he probably would have said so by making a crack about how the laws are ignored with impunity by Canada's gun owners.

As presented, the scene gives the viewer (and I *have* seen it as I have the movie on VCD) the impression that there was nothing unusual about the sale and that it was SOP for Canadian ammo sales.

It's not.


We can argue this all day but the impression Moore meant to convey with that little clip was just how easy it was for an American to walk into any Wal-Mart and buy ammo with no ID.

If it was illegal, it wouldn't be that easy.

And if nothing else, the clerk wouldn't be so stupid as to be filmed making an illegal sale. This wasn't done with a hidden camera. There was a whole camera crew trailing along with him.

[The Kernel]

We can argue this all day but the impression Moore meant to convey with that little clip was just how easy it was for an American to walk into any Wal-Mart and buy ammo with no ID.

If it was illegal, it wouldn't be that easy.

It's illegal for games that arre rated Mature to be sold to minors, yet no one ever cards and it is ridiculously easy for a minor to purchase an adult game simply because the law isn't enforced.

And if nothing else, the clerk wouldn't be so stupid as to be filmed making an illegal sale. This wasn't done with a hidden camera. There was a whole camera crew trailing along with him.

So he's an idiot, so what? You think a clerk would care if his was being filmed selling a Mature rated game? Of course not because its a law no one gives a shit about.

Let's look at what you are saying here. You are trying to say that because Michael Moore wasn't prosecuted for his involvment in an illegal ammo sale, he must have made it up despite the fact that you yourself provided evidence that they investigated this claim.

By your logic, Michael Moore must have actually purchased the ammo since if he did fake it and used real papers, the clerk would have sued him for slander. You see the problem with this train of thought?

[Durandal]

So you think Moore filmed both himself and the clerk violating the law?

Why yes, I do. People do it all the time. Ever seen a reporter trespass on property clearly marked "NO TRESPASSING"?

Here's the story on the clip.
<snip>

Wow that's some hard evidence you've got there. Canadian officials said he should have shown his ID, even though he didn't, therefore he must've shown his ID and edited it out, or he convinced the management to let him stage a scene where he films one of their employees violating Canadian law. Absolutely brilliant.

Moore either edited out presenting his paperwork, staged the scene altogether, or filmed himself violating Canadian law.

Of the three, I'd say the most likely is that it was staged altogether. He might have actually bought the ammo with the proper paperwork and edited the scene out, but then he'd have the problem of disposing of the ammo before he went back home to New York.

Yeah, it's not likely at all that the events transpired the way they did on camera.

The least likely is that it was an illegal purchase simply because not even Michael Moore is stupid enough to film himself breaking the law unless he never intends to visit Canada again.

You seem to believe that Moore is completely unwilling to film himself breaking a law, despite the fact that he's been arrested on camera for filming a Rage Against The Machine music video in front of Wall Street in New York City after the city had explicitly denied the band permission to play there.

Somehow, I doubt that he's afraid of a slap on the wrist for buying ammunition without showing his ID.

In the clip Moore said he was 'amazed' that a foreigner could just walk into a Wal Mart and buy ammo with no ID.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, such as the chain being shut down or prosecuted, one can presume that Wal-Mart wouldn't be blatantly violating Canadian law by selling ammo illegally.

And you don't count a video of him buying ammo without showing his identification "evidence to the contrary"?

[Glocksman]

It's illegal for games that arre rated Mature to be sold to minors, yet no one ever cards and it is ridiculously easy for a minor to purchase an adult game simply because the law isn't enforced.

No it's not.
The ESRB is a voluntary industry and retailer initiative, not law.

You are trying to say that because Michael Moore wasn't prosecuted for his involvment in an illegal ammo sale, he must have made it up despite the fact that you yourself provided evidence that they investigated this claim.

I said the most likely option was that he staged it.

I also stated that he could have bought the ammo with the proper paperwork and edited that scene out in order to convey the misleading impression that one could buy ammo at Wal-Mart in Canada with no ID.

For all I know, he legally bought the ammo with the proper papers and then shot it up at the gun club he visited up there.

Either option is more likely than even the dumbest of store clerks letting themselves be filmed openly breaking firearms laws.

[Glocksman]

And you don't count a video of him buying ammo without showing his identification "evidence to the contrary"?

Given his penchant for context editing?

I wouldn't trust a Moore video of the sunset without seeing all the footage left on the cutting room floor.

[Durandal]

And you don't count a video of him buying ammo without showing his identification "evidence to the contrary"?

Given his penchant for context editing?

I wouldn't trust a Moore video of the sunset without seeing all the footage left on the cutting room floor.

Have you even watched the scene in question?

[Howedar]

I find Moore's lack of comment regarding the CBC story to be interesting.

[Glocksman]

And you don't count a video of him buying ammo without showing his identification "evidence to the contrary"?

Given his penchant for context editing?

I wouldn't trust a Moore video of the sunset without seeing all the footage left on the cutting room floor.

Have you even watched the scene in question?

Yes, I have the movie on VCD.

[The Kernel]

No it's not.
The ESRB is a voluntary industry and retailer initiative, not law.

You're right, I can't believe I didn't know that. Still, I can't think of other retailer activities that are illegal yet done often such as not following proper "pawn shop" laws on the sale or trade of used merchandise.

I said the most likely option was that he staged it.

Which is your opinion and it isn't based on any facts whatsoever.

I also stated that he could have bought the ammo with the proper paperwork and edited that scene out in order to convey the misleading impression that one could buy ammo at Wal-Mart in Canada with no ID.

For all I know, he legally bought the ammo with the proper papers and then shot it up at the gun club he visited up there.

For all we know, Michael Moore is actually a pan-dimensional Hyper Chicken from the Andromeda Galaxy.

Either option is more likely than even the dumbest of store clerks letting themselves be filmed openly breaking firearms laws.

Another opionion of yours that is completely unsubstantiated by actual fact.

[Howedar]

Either option is more likely than even the dumbest of store clerks letting themselves be filmed openly breaking firearms laws.

Another opionion of yours that is completely unsubstantiated by actual fact.

Wrong, the fact that most employees are not dumb enough to break the law in front of a big video camera is definately substantiating evidence.

It does not prove Crackpot's theory, but it is substantiating evidence.