Too close to the system, Vader? What are you goi... <chok

[Cockknocker]

This is a little question that has bugged me for over a decade.

When Vader comments that Admiral Ozzel has come out of Lightspeed "too close" to the system, what is talking about?

I'd have thought that the closer you were, the greater the element of surprise, but it seems as though that's not the case here.

The only explanation I've ever received that satisifed me partially was that Vader wanted the Imperials to jump to the outskirts of the system, and then make a microjump into orbit.

Surely there's a better explanation than that?

[Zac Naloen]

This is a little question that has bugged me for over a decade.

When Vader comments that Admiral Ozzel has come out of Lightspeed "too close" to the system, what is talking about?

I'd have thought that the closer you were, the greater the element of surprise, but it seems as though that's not the case here.

The only explanation I've ever received that satisifed me partially was that Vader wanted the Imperials to jump to the outskirts of the system, and then make a microjump into orbit.

Surely there's a better explanation than that?

Entering and exiting hyperspace gives off a lot of energy, meaning that it is more likely to be detected by the rebels if you come out of hyperspace too close no matter what stealthing technology you may have.

If however they exist further away they won't be detected and can use stealthing and similar technologies to the best advanatage and sneak up on the rebels with less likelyhood of being detected


Thats the best Explanation i've heard about it.

[Dartzap]

i think he meant that the Rebel sensors were more likely to detect them when they came so close.

[Dartzap]

and Damn my fellow Brit for being too fast of the block, and in more detail

[Zac Naloen]

and Damn my fellow Brit for being too fast of the block, and in more detail

But with typo's to spare

[Crazedwraith]

you know i've always wondered the exact same thing. No explaination I've been given has made sense either.

[Dirty Harry]

Basically whta Zac Naleon said. Exiting hyperspace produces Cronau radiation which gives away your exit direction and location. I'm getting the Cronau part from the Black fleet crisis books , but its been ages since I read them and I haven't got them to hand so if anyone wants to correct me on that feel free.

General Rikieen mentioned that there was alot of meteor activity in system and it was making it hard to spot incoming ships. Maybe the Imperials planned on exiting hyperspace just outside the system and using this activity to cover their advance.

[Wild Karrde]

Under the cover of the asteroid field the Death Squadron could have used cordinates from the probe droid to take out the shield generator and ion cannon from long range and send in fighters, bombers, and troop ships before the rebels had a chance to react.

[Mr Bean]

For the reasons stated above as well as coming in to close makes sure you can't launch a commando shuttle(s) to knock out the generators ahead of time) And /Or preforma microjump and drop you into orbital bombardment position with a minium of hassel

[Crazedwraith]

I just had a revelation, I always though they'd whant to get as close as possible and so they could just jump in straight to point blank and stuturate the are with ion cannon fire hence stopping the rebels being able to do anything.

But i just realised That the imps had no idea where in the Hoth system the base was, so they wated to be far enough out so they could locate the base and not have the base locate tehm but Ozzel came to close and thus ther base detected them beofre they deceted it.

[Darth Yoshi]

But presumably the probot would have sent its current coordinates on the planet and which planet it was on along with the data about the generator.

[McC]

In summation of the above arguments, the reason to me always seemed to stem from the following:

RIEEKAN: Commander Skywalker reported in yet?
SOLO: No, he's checking out a meteorite that hit near him.
RIEEKAN: With all the meteor activity in this system, it's going to be difficult to spot approaching ships.

CONTROLLER: General, there's a fleet of star destroyers coming out of hyperspace in sector four.
RIEEKAN: Reroute all power to the energy shield. We've got to hold them 'til all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault.

VADER: What is it, General?
VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
VADER: The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system.
VEERS: H-He felt surprise was wiser--
VADER: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.
VEERS: Yes, my lord.

So, to summarize:

Vader's plan was to arrive in the outskirts of the Hoth system and make a very gradual approach to the planet, masking the fleet as a group of asteroids (a strategy Rieekan mentions would have a high degree of effectiveness). This outskirt arrival would mask the presence of the fleet, since the signature emissions of hyperspace would be far beyond the range of Rebel sensors.

However, Ozzel decided to ignore Vader's plan and instead chose a surprise attack strategy. He arrived in-system, instantly setting off all of the Rebel's sensors (as indicated by the controller's detection), alerting the Rebels to the presence of the Imperial fleet and allowing them to reinforce their deflector shield, which was either not active or not at full power at the time (the difference presumably coming from "Reroute all power" and resulting in "deflect any bombardment"). This prevented Vader from employing a direct surgical bombardment of the power generator itself, and thus made the siezure of the Rebel base more difficult than his plan would have necessitated otherwise.

In fact, it was such an enormous blunder that many Rebel transports escaped, as did Vader's quarry. Ozzel was ostensibly executed for failing to follow the orders of a superior officer during wartime.

[Crazedwraith]

But presumably the probot would have sent its current coordinates on the planet and which planet it was on along with the data about the generator.

Well in the movie it just says from the "hoth system" and shows a few pictures of the shield generators it may have only given the position of the planet not is presice position on that planet and even if it had Vader has no idea where that will be in relation to him when he drops out of hyperspace.

[McC]

Well in the movie it just says from the "hoth system" and shows a few pictures of the shield generators it may have only given the position of the planet not is presice position on that planet and even if it had Vader has no idea where that will be in relation to him when he drops out of hyperspace.

A probe droid would almost certainly have precise coordinate data with respect to its location on a planet. Further more, the probe droid's capsule would probably have sensors to gather system data on its way in that would feed into the droid itself. This system data would be vital to any fleet dropping out of hyperspace. A miscalculation could result in a mass-shadow collision, which would be Really Fuckin' Bad™, especially for Death Squadron.

[hvb]

In other words the probe droid told them where the Generator was, but not where the main base & any orbital defences that the Rebels might have (a single Ion cannon, as it turned out) and any additional shield & power generators, if any, where located.

Thus they could not ensure that a surprice attack would be able to take out the facility, as they would need to detect, identify and engage these targets after arrival, before the Rebels got their shields up to a strength (which seemed from screenplay to be a matter of seconds).

Thus the stealthy approach, which would in Rieekans own assessment most probably allow them to identify these targets, and attempt to get assets into positions to deal with them before the Rebels where alerted to their presence, thus pre-empting any countermeasures. Rushing in and the way Ozzel did was likely the backup plan, in case of an premature (and unlikely) Rebel detection during the stealthy approach.

Ozzel decided to go to the less safe backup plan without any need that we know of (unless he was a Rebel sympathizer as some have speculated), and payed a fully justified price for it. I think Vader was well within his rights to execute him.

Cpt. Needa on the other hand (going of on a tangent here, I know), now that was probably a bit excessive: Incompetence should not be punishable by death. Cashiering him would seem more approprate, or a several-grade demotion and transfer out of command track (but apparently Vader was getting a bit pissed at the continuing missteps of his the fleet at this point ).

[McC]

I dunno, I don't think Needa was justified at all. He was diligently pursuing them, they charged his ship -- and then they disappeared. They didn't go into hyperspace, they were too small to have a cloaking device, so what the hell happened to them? He had no information, but he didn't "lose" them in any traditional sense.

[Zac Naloen]

I dunno, I don't think Needa was justified at all. He was diligently pursuing them, they charged his ship -- and then they disappeared. They didn't go into hyperspace, they were too small to have a cloaking device, so what the hell happened to them? He had no information, but he didn't "lose" them in any traditional sense.

I assume he was hiding in a sensor blind spot between the sensor domes. the only way they could have been found was to actually go out there and have a look visually.

[McC]

Right, that's my point. Vader killed Needa for "losing them," even though he never really failed in any way.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Right, that's my point. Vader killed Needa for "losing them," even though he never really failed in any way.

And?

[Dirty Harry]

Right, that's my point. Vader killed Needa for "losing them," even though he never really failed in any way.

And?

Needa's execution was pointless.

In other words the probe droid told them where the Generator was, but not where the main base & any orbital defences that the Rebels might have (a single Ion cannon, as it turned out) and any additional shield & power generators, if any, where located.

I've got my copy of The essential guide to vehicles and vessels in front of me and the probot entry on p.126 says

"the probot on Hoth made detailed observations of the Rebel base, reporting the locations of shield generators, artillery emplacements and troop deployments, thus giving the Empire execellent intelligance before the assault"

I think theres a good chance the Empire knew the location of the Ion cannon.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Right, that's my point. Vader killed Needa for "losing them," even though he never really failed in any way.

And?

Needa's execution was pointless.

Not exactly, from a more draconian point of view. You're forgetting that Needa accepted full responcibility for the Falcon disappearing when he went to personally receive punishment from Vader.

[Dirty Harry]

Not exactly, from a more draconian point of view. You're forgetting that Needa accepted full responcibility for the Falcon disappearing when he went to personally receive punishment from Vader.

True. I'm not seeing this from Vaders angle. I suppose you or I would have had him charged or demoted, but executed, seems like a waste of a trained Star destroyer skipper to me.

[Crazedwraith]

Not exactly, from a more draconian point of view. You're forgetting that Needa accepted full responcibility for the Falcon disappearing when he went to personally receive punishment from Vader.

True. I'm not seeing this from Vaders angle. I suppose you or I would have had him charged or demoted, but executed, seems like a waste of a trained Star destroyer skipper to me.

But that wouldn't demeonstrated to the audeince how EVIL Vader is.

[McC]

Not exactly, from a more draconian point of view. You're forgetting that Needa accepted full responcibility for the Falcon disappearing when he went to personally receive punishment from Vader.

Okay, so he accepted the responsibility for it disappearing. So what? They didn't escape by any traditional methods that any Star Destroyer captain would know to deal with. Executing an effective Star Destroyer captain who suddenly found a pursued ship completely off his scope was a waste of resources if nothing else.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, this isn't the first time this has been discussed. That's just how Vader operates: he has zero tollerance for any sort of failure. So it's just too bad, really.