STGOD 4 OOC Thread

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-11 01:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:I think, Rogue9, that you underestimate me wildly. I have had and continue to have the resources to smash your alliance peicemeal, even in open military conflict. Just because you can only measure power in fleet bases and warships doesn't mean there aren't other forms just as potent. I strongly suspect that any effort made by your Alliance to defeat the Hajr would end with your own destruction. If you would like to test this, feel free- I stand ready.
I've got no plans to start a war of conquest. Why people can't figure this out, I have no idea.

Maybe because this is an STGOD? Trust no one, is the motto of the utterly naive in this game.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-06-11 01:07pm

That's a pretty bold claim, Thirdfain, Rogue's alliance has 3 or 4 nations, that's a lot of firepower.

*shrug* Yup. Additionally, they have btter strategic speed, I rely on a long and vulnerable supply line, and my fleets are spread out guarding large territories. Seems I really don't have much going for me if it comes to conflict. I wonder why I'm so confident?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 01:10pm

Exactly. This is an STGOD. I don't need to start a war; they'll come my way whether I like it or not, and if I'm the attacked instead of the attacker (especially as there's no good reason to attack me) I'm more likely to garner sympathy and/or support. Starting wars is a dangerous business. There haven't been many who've made the first move in a war and won. Hitler? The vaunted blitzkrieg availed him nothing in the long run. WW1 Central Powers? That adventure ended in one of the most humiliating defeats in human history. The South in the U.S. Civil War? Crushed. Napoleon? Waterloo. North Korea? Pushed all the way to their northern border, had to get their asses saved by the Chinese. Iraq in 1990? Owned and denied. The list goes on. No, I think I'll just be the benevolent republic. Safer that way.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-06-11 01:18pm

STGOD history has it's share of failed peaceful democracies. I seem to recall the Peaceful & Successful History of the Aquarian Union...

Oh, and your reputation as a benevolent republic is, by now, at the very least quite tarnished. I reckon you are an Imperialist Opressor And Destroyer of Religious Freedoms, if you ask the big news-nets...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-11 01:21pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Exactly. This is an STGOD. I don't need to start a war; they'll come my way whether I like it or not, and if I'm the attacked instead of the attacker (especially as there's no good reason to attack me) I'm more likely to garner sympathy and/or support. Starting wars is a dangerous business. There haven't been many who've made the first move in a war and won. Hitler? The vaunted blitzkrieg availed him nothing in the long run. WW1 Central Powers? That adventure ended in one of the most humiliating defeats in human history. The South in the U.S. Civil War? Crushed. Napoleon? Waterloo. North Korea? Pushed all the way to their northern border, had to get their asses saved by the Chinese. Iraq in 1990? Owned and denied. The list goes on. No, I think I'll just be the benevolent republic. Safer that way.

Funny, but there are plenty of power that made it with agressive wars against their neighbors. Persia, various Greek city states, Rome, the British, the Americans, the Russians/Soviets. Sure starting a war can be risky but starting a smart one and not letting ego get in the way can pay off nicely.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 01:23pm

How? Who the hell am I oppressing? The Covenant? As I recall, they attacked me for no apparent reason, and continue to fight (mostly by your doing, but that's neither here nor there). Can't just settle down so I can reestablish their infrastructure and leave in good conscience and with the assurance that they probably aren't going to build right back up and have at me again, can they?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-11 01:28pm

Rogue 9 wrote:How? Who the hell am I oppressing? The Covenant? As I recall, they attacked me for no apparent reason, and continue to fight (mostly by your doing, but that's neither here nor there). Can't just settle down so I can reestablish their infrastructure and leave in good conscience and with the assurance that they probably aren't going to build right back up and have at me again, can they?

Did I say you were oppressing any one? I was simply pointing out that you can get away with offensive and agressive warfare if you're smart about it.

PS: You seem touchy. It makes a guy wonder.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-06-11 01:51pm

How? Who the hell am I oppressing? The Covenant? As I recall, they attacked me for no apparent reason, and continue to fight (mostly by your doing, but that's neither here nor there). Can't just settle down so I can reestablish their infrastructure and leave in good conscience and with the assurance that they probably aren't going to build right back up and have at me again, can they?

If you can't see the obvious modern parallels...

Of course the Covenant! You invasion of them was of course wholly justified; your occupation, on the other hand is very easy to paint in a negative light.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-11 02:17pm

Alyrium, using current FTL speeds, it would take just over a year to go from one tip of the galaxy to the other, assuming dreadnought scale ships are determining speed, and assuming you could go through the core. Needless to say, while it would take a while for a massed Overseer fleet to get to our part of the galaxy, it's not decades.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 02:24pm

Thirdfain wrote:

How? Who the hell am I oppressing? The Covenant? As I recall, they attacked me for no apparent reason, and continue to fight (mostly by your doing, but that's neither here nor there). Can't just settle down so I can reestablish their infrastructure and leave in good conscience and with the assurance that they probably aren't going to build right back up and have at me again, can they?
If you can't see the obvious modern parallels...

Of course the Covenant! You invasion of them was of course wholly justified; your occupation, on the other hand is very easy to paint in a negative light.

Modern parallels? If you're trying to compare this to the current occupation of Iraq, your analogy is a tad flawed, as the Covenant did indeed make an obvious military attack against me before I even considered moving against them. If the attack hadn't been an abject failure and the perpetrating nation hadn't immediately surrendered at the first sign of counterattack, I'd compare to Pearl Harbor. Since both the above conditions apply, there really isn't a modern parallel; so far no one's been insane enough to try something like that IRL. But that's really beside the point. If I were to pull out today, along with all the other forces in the Covenant, the whole region would immediately suffer one of the greatest bloodlettings in recent memory, bar only the Rape of Terra. Which I would then be blamed for permitting. Its a pretty little Catch-22, I'll grant you that, but the alternative was to utterly destroy the military and government and then leave the people to fend for themselves (a condition forced by the premature Covenant surrender; I didn't go in planning to annihilate them). There wasn't much of a choice.

And Stormbringer, I was referring to Thirdfain. I was typing on that post intermittently between work assignments, and therefore went a long time between starting the post and submitting it. Didn't see yours. (Heck, the same applies to this. There's probably more posts up by now; I started this about twenty minutes ago and got interrupted.)

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-11 02:33pm

Hotfoot wrote:Alyrium, using current FTL speeds, it would take just over a year to go from one tip of the galaxy to the other, assuming dreadnought scale ships are determining speed, and assuming you could go through the core. Needless to say, while it would take a while for a massed Overseer fleet to get to our part of the galaxy, it's not decades.

How, we are DS9 tech level and move at roughly 2000 c

Or at least that is what we agreed upon in the beginning.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 02:38pm

Oh, and I forgot the bit about destroying religious freedoms. Please and by all means, point to where I banned their religion.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-06-11 02:40pm

Hotfoot wrote:Alyrium, using current FTL speeds, it would take just over a year to go from one tip of the galaxy to the other, assuming dreadnought scale ships are determining speed, and assuming you could go through the core. Needless to say, while it would take a while for a massed Overseer fleet to get to our part of the galaxy, it's not decades.

I'd like to disagree with that. Recall this is DS9 tech. Thinking back to Voyager, it would take something like 75 years to go across something like 3/4ths of the galaxy. I'd say the biggest reason for this is durability of engines especially at faster speeds. Sure your ship can go fast, but after a coulpe weeks at this ship your going to need to start replacing parts left and right. There's that, and then the whole problem of fuel. I would suppose a ship built for such a trip (mostly fuel stores and replacement parts) would take close to a decade to go such a distance.

I submit that a War fleet would take far longer. If you load warships down with fuel and supplies you'll have to sacrifice some of its ability to fight. The obviuos alternative is to have deidcated ships carrying only fuel and spare parts. Depending no the fleet size a problem might occur where you have more supply ships than warships (supply ships need supplies too!). So the only other alternative is to carry the equipment needed to produce fuel and supplies. Now your stopping every so often to mine, refine and perhaps even manfacture supplies! The time required obviuosly baloons quickly, and it stands to reason that this could be the reason why, despite our fast FTL drives, we don't populate the entier galaxy.

The biggest question is, how much of this would/could be in game knowledge.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-06-11 02:42pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Oh, and I forgot the bit about destroying religious freedoms. Please and by all means, point to where I banned their religion.

The Covenant clerics hate your guts and are actively launching attacks against your occupation forces. Yet by suppressing them, you're killing priests and blowing up temples. It's a difficult, many-faceted situation...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 02:46pm

I realize this, but unless the news networks include the killing of those who disagree with the religion in question among legitimate religious freedoms then I fail to see how this amounts to wholesale suppression of religion. (And if they do, how about they start the line to get killed? After all, they're infidels as well...)

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-11 03:11pm

InnocentBystander wrote:I'd like to disagree with that. Recall this is DS9 tech.

It was widely agreed upon that current FTL was faster than STGOD1 FTL. Known space is 2,000 ly in diameter and can be traversed in a week. The Milky Way, end to end, is 100,000 ly in diameter. Either known space is MUCH smaller than originally put forth, or our FTL tech is superior in speed to DS9, as previously agreed upon.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-06-11 03:36pm

Hotfoot wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:I'd like to disagree with that. Recall this is DS9 tech.
It was widely agreed upon that current FTL was faster than STGOD1 FTL. Known space is 2,000 ly in diameter and can be traversed in a week. The Milky Way, end to end, is 100,000 ly in diameter. Either known space is MUCH smaller than originally put forth, or our FTL tech is superior in speed to DS9, as previously agreed upon.

The tech level is far more important than the supposed size of known space. I suggest we fudge numbers & shrink the size of known space. I know for certain that FTL drive is not faster now than in STGOD one. STGOD 1 FTL was Star Wars tech level, no?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-11 04:00pm

InnocentBystander wrote:The tech level is far more important than the supposed size of known space. I suggest we fudge numbers & shrink the size of known space. I know for certain that FTL drive is not faster now than in STGOD one. STGOD 1 FTL was Star Wars tech level, no?

No, that was STGOD 2. STGOD 1 was somewhat above Star Trek FTL, IIRC. Everyone previously agreed that 11ly/h was a good speed in the beginning of the game.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-11 04:11pm

Ah well. On to more immediate problems. I dispatched a fleet for the Machine base before you guys did, and then you got there and destroyed it first while I was away. How do we explain this? (And I'd by far prefer an explanation that doesn't involve me having outrageously slow FTL or attempting to let the Machines off, if you don't mind.) Ideas, anyone?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-06-11 04:12pm

The tech level is far more important than the supposed size of known space. I suggest we fudge numbers & shrink the size of known space. I know for certain that FTL drive is not faster now than in STGOD one. STGOD 1 FTL was Star Wars tech level, no?

Foolish. We need it to take certain ammounts of time to cross known space for strategic and gameplay reasons. Known Space needs to be a certain size to accomobate our powers and the varied feifdoms and old nations. Ergo, we must bow to the game mechanics in terms of FTL speed. Since no one has any particular advantage due to this fudging of DS9 tech limits, I have NO problem with it.

I realize this, but unless the news networks include the killing of those who disagree with the religion in question among legitimate religious freedoms then I fail to see how this amounts to wholesale suppression of religion. (And if they do, how about they start the line to get killed? After all, they're infidels as well...)

The Covenant isn't currently worried about the Infidel part so much as the Invading our Planets part- and I'll point out that despite the fact the Covenanters hadn't yet risen up, the occupation forces began stifiling the clerics and promoting their own religions upon taking control- Of course, the Arcanists who did this are gone, but their legacy remains.

Now, it's clear to me that the Covenant is dangerous and needs to be kept from becoming a major power. The way to do this without public disdain does NOT involve firing automatic weapons into unarmed crowds or casting chain lightening on rioting civilians.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-06-11 04:12pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Ah well. On to more immediate problems. I dispatched a fleet for the Machine base before you guys did, and then you got there and destroyed it first while I was away. How do we explain this? (And I'd by far prefer an explanation that doesn't involve me having outrageously slow FTL or attempting to let the Machines off, if you don't mind.) Ideas, anyone?

As I told you on AIM, your base that you found is different then the one which I found and we destroyed.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-06-11 04:15pm

Ah well. On to more immediate problems. I dispatched a fleet for the Machine base before you guys did, and then you got there and destroyed it first while I was away. How do we explain this? (And I'd by far prefer an explanation that doesn't involve me having outrageously slow FTL or attempting to let the Machines off, if you don't mind.) Ideas, anyone?

-shrug- Who cares? You were gone for a LONG time and the STGOD was slowing down immensely- you should not make a major story move and then disappear for a month (Hey! Sharkbait!) As it damages the STGOD. If enough people do it, the game dies.

I don't particularly like it, but we'll cite supply problems, or an engine malfunction on one of your carriers, or something. It certainly won't be held up as a tool to hurt your nation simply because you were gone for a while and missed a battle...

-edit- Never mind! Straha Solved!

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-06-11 04:22pm

Hotfoot wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:I'd like to disagree with that. Recall this is DS9 tech.
It was widely agreed upon that current FTL was faster than STGOD1 FTL. Known space is 2,000 ly in diameter and can be traversed in a week. The Milky Way, end to end, is 100,000 ly in diameter. Either known space is MUCH smaller than originally put forth, or our FTL tech is superior in speed to DS9, as previously agreed upon.

Actually this fits with the DS9 limit. Remember the Federation did have Trans-warp tech way back when in Star Trek III, so if we remove Scotty sabotaging the drive we've got the speed limit we now have.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-06-11 04:23pm

Stormbringer wrote:Would you like me to mod this while you're gone?

I thought we'd already decided that we were both mods. Nobody can be on 24/7.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-11 04:24pm

By the way, I did make a rather long and detailed post concerning FTL speeds several pages back which got passed over. Since I now have everyone's attention again, and Pablo's back to make a ruling, here's the link

Suggestions, criticisms, rants?