If you hated Michael Moore before ...

[The Kernel]

Have you even seen the scene in question? There are four quick transition edits in it.

That Moore edited the scene is a fact. The only question is what he edited out.

Name me a movie that hasn't been edited please.

You have the option of either believing that the girl made an illegal sale while a camera crew (Moore was accompanied by both a cameraman and a soundman with a boom) filmed the whole thing, or that Moore edited out the scene of him filling out the paperwork.

Considering that she would have been videotaped anyways by the internal security system, I don't see this as being much of a point. Which is more of a threat to her job security? An unknown man filming a documentary or Wal-Mart's own management?

The claim that is was an illegal sale and that this Wal-Mart worker was stupid (as was claimed earlier) and would willingly break the law while being filmed is a lot less likely than the explanation that Moore simply edited out the part that ran counter to his 'argument'.

They are always being filmed genius.

I can't prove what that large open binder was on the counter next to Moore, but I doubt it was the store CD catalog.

What is this? A supposition game where you throw random facts at the wall and try to see what sticks?

If the sale was illegal, wouldn't Moore be shouting it from the rooftops in order to publicize his 'case' against Wal-Mart selling ammo instead of saying 'no comment' when asked about the circumstances surrounding the clip?

That is perhaps the flimsiest line of reasoning I've ever heard.

[Glocksman]

Considering that she would have been videotaped anyways by the internal security system, I don't see this as being much of a point. Which is more of a threat to her job security? An unknown man filming a documentary or Wal-Mart's own management?

While there are people willing to risk their jobs that they can conceal their thefts or other illegal activity for the store's security cameras (happens at the DC where I work all of the time), there aren't that many people who'd do so with a camera crew right in their face.

What is this? A supposition game where you throw random facts at the wall and try to see what sticks?

No, it's a reasonable guess based on Canadian gun laws as to just what that binder was.

That is perhaps the flimsiest line of reasoning I've ever heard.

The supposition that the sale was illegal is even flimsier.

Other than a film clip that has the portion edited out of it that would prove an illegal sale, there's no proof an illegal act was committed.

Moore doesn't state that it's illegal, either.

In the absence of an allegation of illegality on his part, the reasonable course is to assume the sale is legal as the whole context of that 'Fun Facts about Canada' segment was to prove that Canadians are just as 'gun crazy' as Americans.

If it's not illegal, it was either staged or he edited out the paperwork because it contradicted his 'point'.

[The Kernel]

While there are people willing to risk their jobs that they can conceal their thefts or other illegal activity for the store's security cameras (happens at the DC where I work all of the time), there aren't that many people who'd do so with a camera crew right in their face.

They already have a camera in their face you dense fucking moron. This supposition of yours is totally baseless.

No, it's a reasonable guess based on Canadian gun laws as to just what that binder was.

It could also be a million other things. Got any evidence whatsoever that this mystical binder proves Moore was forced to show ID?

The supposition that the sale was illegal is even flimsier.

This is not a supposition, this is the information as presented.

Other than a film clip that has the portion edited out of it that would prove an illegal sale, there's no proof an illegal act was committed.

Oh, so now you have definative proof that he edited key portions of the tape out?

Moore doesn't state that it's illegal, either.

His point has to do with the ease of buying ammunition in Canada versus the United States, not the legality of the situation.

In the absence of an allegation of illegality on his part, the reasonable course is to assume the sale is legal as the whole context of that 'Fun Facts about Canada' segment was to prove that Canadians are just as 'gun crazy' as Americans.

Did you even watch this movie? That was NOT the point of that segment, the point was to prove that Canadians had equal access to guns as Americans, yet they didn't choose to go around murdering people with them. That was, what, the whole fucking point of the movie!

If it's not illegal, it was either staged or he edited out the paperwork because it contradicted his 'point'.

...which you have utterly failed to prove beyond even the flimsiest of suppositions. Everything you have said is based on sophistry and your own personal opinion of the psychology of retail clerks, despite the fact that retail clerks routinely violate the law on camera!

[Durandal]

Glocksman, the problem with your argument is that you're basing it on the assumption that the law is always followed. Well ... it isn't. Even if there's a video camera in front of you. So, let's consider what you're saying:

1: Michael Moore wouldn't film himself breaking Canadian law. Complete crap. The man's been arrested on camera, for filming a music video where he hadn't been given permission to do so.

2: The clerk wouldn't break Canadian law on camera. Have you ever worked at a place like Wal-Mart? In the US, the only things that most people would expect to be carded for are tobacco and alcohol. New employees might not even know that it's store policy or Canadian law to ask for identification for buying ammunition. At places like Wal-Mart, employees get a couple hours of crappy, boring videos for training that no one pays attention to, and that's it. It's not difficult to believe that the cashier simply didn't card him for it at all.

[Glocksman]

The clerk wouldn't break Canadian law on camera. Have you ever worked at a place like Wal-Mart? In the US, the only things that most people would expect to be carded for are tobacco and alcohol. New employees might not even know that it's store policy or Canadian law to ask for identification for buying ammunition. At places like Wal-Mart, employees get a couple hours of crappy, boring videos for training that no one pays attention to, and that's it. It's not difficult to believe that the cashier simply didn't card him for it at all.

Canada and the US are different, as Mike would be glad to point out. Canada's gun laws have historically been tighter than the US's, with correspondingly greater restrictions on retailers.


I worked part time at a Thornton's (local 7-11 type store) for a while, and management was death on failures to card for tobacco.
I can only imagine what they would have been like on guns and ammo if we had sold them.

As for your first point, I'll grant you that.

However, wouldn't Moore point out that 'despite it being illegal, it's easy to do, even for an American.' or something along that line?

In my mind, the fact that Moore condemns (and is petitioning them to stop doing so) Wal-Mart for selling ammo, yet won't use this allegedly illegal sale as evidence against the company to stir up support for his petition, coupled with the missing footage (if it was an illegal sale) of the clerk plopping the ammo on the counter and saying 'That'll be x dollars, sir', tells me that there was more to it than he chose to show us.

[Graeme Dice]

Canada and the US are different, as Mike would be glad to point out. Canada's gun laws have historically been tighter than the US's, with correspondingly greater restrictions on retailers.

Except on ammunition, which has always been very easy to purchase. I know that just three years ago a friend and myself were not asked for identification when purchasing 500 .22 rounds at a small convenience store in a resort community. Management cracks down on tobacco and alcohol in Canada because the fines are upwards of $50,000 per offense for repeat offenders.

[Durandal]

Canada and the US are different, as Mike would be glad to point out. Canada's gun laws have historically been tighter than the US's, with correspondingly greater restrictions on retailers.

I worked part time at a Thornton's (local 7-11 type store) for a while, and management was death on failures to card for tobacco.
I can only imagine what they would have been like on guns and ammo if we had sold them.

Yeah, and have you ever worked at a large store like Wal-Mart? I've worked at Dominick's, which is comparable in size, but the Wal-Mart customer base is infinitely more depressing. Seriously, imagine having to spend hours upon hours dealing with some of the ugliest, most disgusting people on the face of the planet for shitty pay in a massive store. How much are you going to give a shit if you get fired for not carding some fat customer when all he's buying is a box of ammunition?

As for your first point, I'll grant you that.

However, wouldn't Moore point out that 'despite it being illegal, it's easy to do, even for an American.' or something along that line?

I don't know. Maybe Moore honestly didn't know that it was an illegal purchase in Canada. How many times do you think he's bought ammunition there? He just said it was easy to get a hold of ammunition in Canada without identification, and then proceeded to demonstrate.

In my mind, the fact that Moore condemns (and is petitioning them to stop doing so) Wal-Mart for selling ammo, yet won't use this allegedly illegal sale as evidence against the company to stir up support for his petition, coupled with the missing footage (if it was an illegal sale) of the clerk plopping the ammo on the counter and saying 'That'll be x dollars, sir', tells me that there was more to it than he chose to show us.

What if the clerk was making small-talk with him? What if the clerk was a big Michael Moore fan and spent a half-hour chatting his ear off? There are other equally likely explanations aside from this conspiracy theory of yours.

[Illuminatus Primus]

PDs around here aren't sending narcs out to retailers about ammo sales, either.

[LordShaithis]

Yeah, and have you ever worked at a large store like Wal-Mart?

Yes, about eight years ago. Kmart, sporting goods, selling guns and ammo among other things.

I've worked at Dominick's, which is comparable in size, but the Wal-Mart customer base is infinitely more depressing. Seriously, imagine having to spend hours upon hours dealing with some of the ugliest, most disgusting people on the face of the planet for shitty pay in a massive store.

It's not fun, but it's not exactly slaving away in the Romulan dilithium mines either.

How much are you going to give a shit if you get fired for not carding some fat customer when all he's buying is a box of ammunition?

At that sort of job, you get used to asking for ID constantly. Nobody is going to deliberately ignore the law with a camera and a bloody boom mic in their face. That's a bit different than the inconspicuous security camera, the output of which is probably only ever going to be examined if your register comes up short.

[Darth Wong]

I take you simply ignored Graeme Dice saying that he bought ammo 3 years ago in Canada without showing ID?

[LordShaithis]

Wow, and I thought I said...

Nobody is going to deliberately ignore the law with a camera and a bloody boom mic in their face.

But apparently what I really said was...

Nobody is going to deliberately ignore the law ever, under any circumstances.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Elfdart]

I know from personal experience that retail employees don't always obey the law. Sometimes it's laziness or a "who gives a shit?" attitude. Sometimes it's deliberate.

Years ago, I was the night clerk in a store where state law forbade the sale of alcohol to people under 21 or after midnight. Well this was right by a college with a lot of hot chicks, and I was a teenage pushover, so there was no fucking way on Earth I was going to card these girls. It worked! I got phone numbers, invitations to parties and other friendly gestures. Sure, I got in trouble when my boss found out, but it's a small price to pay when you're 17 years old and you get to screw around with drunk college girls.

Another case in point: At another retail job where I was moonlighting, a local second-string news anchor came by the store to shop. The way employees fawned over this guy was embarassing. The assistant manager even started offering him free stuff! He could have walked out of there without paying for a thing. And this was just the guy who filled in when the regular anchor was sick or on vacation!

Sure, Michael Moore isn't a hot 19-year-old college chick who needs to buy beer really badly at 2 AM, but he's also not a backup news anchor at the worst station in the local area. So the notion that a cashier in a store would NEVER bend, break or ignore the rules or the law is hogwash. The idea that a camera being present would make a difference is hogwash, too.

[LordShaithis]

Another case in point: At another retail job where I was moonlighting, a local second-string news anchor came by the store to shop. The way employees fawned over this guy was embarassing. The assistant manager even started offering him free stuff!

Was the assistant manager ON CAMERA when he was doing this? If not, it's not a valid comparison. If you're Joe Schmuck behind the counter at Wal-Mart, and some asshole comes in specifically to film you selling him ammunition, you're probably not going to choose that particular instance to be lazy and crap on the procedure.

Did Moore even claim it was an illegal sale? Does he have any reason to obscure the fact, if it WAS illegal? What are we getting at here?

Anyway, speaking of Moore and guns, I finally saw Bowling for Columbine. It was really interesting, and only marred by the fact that Moore himself is such a wanker.

"Hey, do you think it's a good idea to give away guns at a bank? Well don't bother answering, because I'm going to instantly cut away!"

Yeah, dipshit, a robber is going to come in there with his ID and fill out the paperwork to open a bank account. Then he's going to accept his free gun, take it out of the box in front of everyone, load it with the bullets he brought along in his pocket, and say "Stick 'em up!" Of course, he'll be doing all of this with his ski mask on. I mean, he'd have to be pretty stupid to rob a bank with his face showing.

[Elfdart]

There were at least EIGHT cameras going at the time (It's a large store.) and NOTHING happened to the asst. manager. If the anchor wanted to, he could have just walked out with whatever he wanted.

Keep in mind that Michael Moore is considered as much a comedian as a journalist. People clown around and slack off when he comes calling -especially when the cameras are rolling! My ex-girlfriend worked at a bookstore when he did a book signing. Employees goofed off, didn't charge customers for drinks (even though they were supposed to), let their friends trash the place, you name it. There were at least three cameras running (Moore's, the company's, and a local TV station's), not including several security cameras in the store.