"Michael Moore responds to the wacko attackos..."

[Ma Deuce]

Then he's a goddamned idiot. Many states have handgun hunting seasons.

What do people hunt with handguns and why don’t they use rifles or shotguns?

Because handguns are smaller and easier to carry than rifles, and some people hunt at ranges where a rifle's range and accuracy isn't required, or a shotgun's lethality isn't needed. Some handguns, like the Desert Eagle, are directed specifically at sportsmen/hunters. The DE is in fact marketed as a "target shooting/sporting" pistol. This makes sense: despite it's appearance in many Hollywood films (like the Matrix trilogy), the DE, especially the .44 magnum and .50 Action Express versions, really isn't suited for for offensive or self-defence purposes at all: It produces too much recoil and muzzle flash (the .357 version isn't too bad in this respect, but this is not enough to ammorilate the other drawbacks of the weapon), it is too prone to jamming, and it's much too heavy. The .50AE cartridge (the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world) is in fact marketed specifically at hunters, as it's advertised as being capable of dropping a grizzly bear with one shot.

[Plekhanov]

Because handguns are smaller and easier to carry than rifles, and some people hunt at ranges where a rifle's range and accuracy isn't required, or a shotgun's lethality isn't needed.

But which animals allow you to get so close? Is this primarily a sport for people who are so good at stalking that hunting with a rifle is boring or something?

Some handguns, like the Desert Eagle, are directed specifically at sportsmen/hunters. The DE is in fact marketed as a "target shooting/sporting" pistol. This makes sense: despite it's appearance in many Hollywood films (like the Matrix trilogy), the DE, especially the .44 magnum and .50 Action Express versions, really isn't suited for for offensive or self-defence purposes at all: It produces too much recoil and muzzle flash (the .357 version isn't too bad in this respect, but this is not enough to ammorilate the other drawbacks of the weapon), it is too prone to jamming, and it's much too heavy. The .50AE cartridge (the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world) is in fact marketed specifically at hunters, as it's advertised as being capable of dropping a grizzly bear with one shot.

Isn’t that just the macho marketing to go with a product that is more about machismo than practicality, surely nobody goes hunting grizzlies with pistols, do they? The mind boggles.

[Ma Deuce]

But which animals allow you to get so close? Is this primarily a sport for people who are so good at stalking that hunting with a rifle is boring or something?

With a scope attachment installed, the DE has (at least supposedly) an effective range of 200 meters. Although this sounds a little farfetched for a handgun (I'm a little skeptical myself), when one considers the muzzle velocity afforded by Magnum-caliber cartridges, as well as the fact that weapons with polygonal rifling (like the DE) tend to have better accuracy, it seems more plausible. Most handguns chambered for the more common and practical cartridges (9mm Luger/Para, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) have an average effective range of 50-75 yards. If someone is careful, they can easily get into the accurate shooting range of "common" handguns before it scampers off...

BTW, Magnum cartridges were always directed at hunters: even the first Magnum, the .357, which debuted in 1935.

Isn’t that just the macho marketing to go with a product that is more about machismo than practicality, surely nobody goes hunting grizzlies with pistols, do they? The mind boggles.

Possibly: It could be the same reason some people buy big, hulking SUVs where a coupe will do nicely. However, some hunters do carry them as a backup to their rifle/shotgun: Grizzlies have an uncanny ability to sneak up on you. Also, it's not just hunters who use them: They're also used by those who own one simply to shoot it at practice targets or in shooting competitions, where needless to say accuracy is key.

[Galvatron]

Whether or not he's an idiot isn't a point of contention, here. The point is that he is a lifetime member of the NRA, grew up around guns and does believe in the right to bear arms. So it's not like he just bought a membership for the sake of saying that he has, which is what Ossus was implying.

I wish he'd make that clear. The article indicates his support for tougher gun laws which seems incompatible with a belief in the right to bear arms.

[Master of Ossus]

Usually my grandfather carried his Colt with him when he went bow-hunting. It was just a back-up for self-defense, in case one of the wild boars he hunted decided to charge, and he missed or didn't kill it with his first arrow. The DE, and doubtless other similar handguns, would probably be ideally suited for such a role, since it could bring down a potentially dangerous large animal fairly easily.

[Master of Ossus]

Oh come on, Ossus, get your head out of your ass for just a second. Moore may not like the people heading up the NRA (Charleton Heston in particular), but he does believe in the right to bear arms.

Good for him. How does that in any way affect what I said?

He grew up in rural Michigan and hunted there as a youth.

Who gives a flying fuck? My dad grew up in rural Michigan (and, later, Wisconsin), but he doesn't support firearms use. Where he grew up is totally irrelevant, as is the fact that he hunted while growing up.

He mainly opposes handguns, because he believes that handguns are specifically designed to kill people.

Then he's wrong. There are legitimate uses for handguns that don't involve killing people.

This is a sentiment that my aunt's grandfather, who lived on a farm in Michigan, held as well.

Again, good for him, but that in no way rebuts the fact that handguns are used by sportsmen for legitimate purposes.

[Elfdart]

Why the NRA is still pissed off at Moore is beyond me. They didn't come off nearly as badly as Dick "close the van door and drive off" Clark.

[Durandal]

Oh come on, Ossus, get your head out of your ass for just a second. Moore may not like the people heading up the NRA (Charleton Heston in particular), but he does believe in the right to bear arms.

Good for him. How does that in any way affect what I said?

You gave the impression that he was not sincere in his support for the right to bear arms, and I'm giving you contradictory evidence. Unless you meant something else by noting your failure to be impressed that he was a lifetime member of the NRA.

Who gives a flying fuck? My dad grew up in rural Michigan (and, later, Wisconsin), but he doesn't support firearms use. Where he grew up is totally irrelevant, as is the fact that he hunted while growing up.

But Moore does. He just doesn't like handguns.

Then he's wrong. There are legitimate uses for handguns that don't involve killing people.

And like I said to Shep before, that's completely irrelevant. I'm not arguing his side; I'm telling you what it is and that it's compatible with a belief in the right to bear arms.

[Frank Hipper]

Why the NRA is still pissed off at Moore is beyond me. They didn't come off nearly as badly as Dick "close the van door and drive off" Clark.

That was fucking beautiful! What an incredible asshole...

[Illuminatus Primus]

But which animals allow you to get so close? Is this primarily a sport for people who are so good at stalking that hunting with a rifle is boring or something?

I can't stand this attitude. So now hunters must justify to you which guns are suitable enough for hunting? Nice backpeddle becuase you were ignorant. Maybe the enjoy the challenge. A .22 or 30-06 is unwieldly in thick brush and needlessly overkill for small game like squirrels and rabbits.

Isn’t that just the macho marketing to go with a product that is more about machismo than practicality, surely nobody goes hunting grizzlies with pistols, do they? The mind boggles.

Yes, they do. Maybe you should do some research before mouthing off like a dumbfuck. Maybe people don't buy Desert Eagles for macho posturing; somehow I think professional sportsmen and hunters already know about the massive handguns before they were glorified by Hollywood.

In fact, the Desert Eagle in unsuitable and downright terrible for combat. That's just a fact. It was designed for sport shooting and small game hunt.

[Master of Ossus]

Good for him. How does that in any way affect what I said?

You gave the impression that he was not sincere in his support for the right to bear arms, and I'm giving you contradictory evidence. Unless you meant something else by noting your failure to be impressed that he was a lifetime member of the NRA.

Anyone with any agenda can easily become a lifetime member of the NRA, so the fact that he's done so is not remotely impressive. Thus, the fact that Moore has done so DOES NOT provide "contradictory evidence" of anything.

But Moore does. He just doesn't like handguns.

And, as I already said, who cares? The point is that BFC supported the NRA's central position, which is that guns are not at fault and should not be banned because of human foibles. Moore agrees with that statement, which is the same message presented by BFC.

Then he's wrong. There are legitimate uses for handguns that don't involve killing people.

And like I said to Shep before, that's completely irrelevant. I'm not arguing his side; I'm telling you what it is and that it's compatible with a belief in the right to bear arms.

Right, and I already explained the BFC does nothing to damage the NRA's central position regarding firearms. If it contains any messages specifically against hand guns, as opposed to other types of firearms, then that message is also muddled and ineffective.

[Elfdart]

Why the NRA is still pissed off at Moore is beyond me. They didn't come off nearly as badly as Dick "close the van door and drive off" Clark.

That was fucking beautiful! What an incredible asshole...

I knew he was a dickhead when he cut from the live performance of Led Zeppelin at Live Aid for a tape of Madonna. Fuck Dick Clark!

I'm pretty left-wing, but I was just amused at the NRA after BFC. My real anger was aimed at Clark and the so-called "reform" of welfare.

[Plekhanov]

But which animals allow you to get so close? Is this primarily a sport for people who are so good at stalking that hunting with a rifle is boring or something?

I can't stand this attitude. So now hunters must justify to you which guns are suitable enough for hunting?

Calm down and take a few deep breaths before you post you’re getting over excited.

When did I state a belief that hunters had to justify anything to me? I merely asked some sceptical questions about hunting with handguns, which Ma Deuce was kind enough to answer for me.

Nice backpeddle becuase you were ignorant. Maybe the enjoy the challenge. A .22 or 30-06 is unwieldly in thick brush and needlessly overkill for small game like squirrels and rabbits.

What back peddle? I asked a question Ma Deuce answered it, I was still a little unsure so I asked another and he answered that to, what position am I retreating from?

Isn’t that just the macho marketing to go with a product that is more about machismo than practicality, surely nobody goes hunting grizzlies with pistols, do they? The mind boggles.

Yes, they do.

Do they really you learn something everyday, Is it really so incredible that I should be surprised that people would go hunting Grizzly Bears in handgun season? I don’t know much about guns but I know enough about grizzly bears to want to be more than handgun range away from one before I decided to piss one off which is why I was so surprised about the whole drop a grizzly thing.

Maybe you should do some research before mouthing off like a dumbfuck.

Who’s mouthing off? As for research what do you think I’m doing? I saw Shep’s post about the handgun hunting season and so asked a few (admittedly sceptical) questions about it in a thread where people who know about such things could answer them.

Maybe people don't buy Desert Eagles for macho posturing; somehow I think professional sportsmen and hunters already know about the massive handguns before they were glorified by Hollywood.

I’m sure some buy them for other reasons but I suspect many buy them for the same reason that suburbanites who never venture off tarmac buy SUVs

In fact, the Desert Eagle in unsuitable and downright terrible for combat. That's just a fact. It was designed for sport shooting and small game hunt.

No shit the desert eagle is rubbish for combat I’m glad you told me that because it not the first thing everybody ever says about the desert eagle

[Stuart Mackey]

And he is right..if he was factually wog on anything..he would have been sued into the ground in any democratic nation.

What do you have agians Greeks/Itallians Sutart? ...

We dont serve their kind here..they will have to leave
*damn typo's*

[Stuart Mackey]

Whether or not he's an idiot isn't a point of contention, here. The point is that he is a lifetime member of the NRA, grew up around guns and does believe in the right to bear arms. So it's not like he just bought a membership for the sake of saying that he has, which is what Ossus was implying.

I wish he'd make that clear. The article indicates his support for tougher gun laws which seems incompatible with a belief in the right to bear arms.

Supporting gun control just means that maybe he supports their regulation, not that he is opposed to any right to bear arms?.

[Elfdart]

Plekhanov, it's not entirely up to the hunter where, when and at what distance he runs into a bear -especially in the woods where the bear's superior smell and hearing trump Homo sapiens' better eyesight. Trying to use a rifle in that situation often won't work: By the time the rifle is brought to bear (no pun intended or even noticed until I hit "preview"), the hunter gets a major backhand from Ursus arctos.

In many cases, a bear isn't even the game being hunted but they can turn up any time.

In India, park rangers in tiger country (thick brush and tall grass) sometimes use machinepistols like the Sterling or short-barreled shotguns because long rifles aren't as wieldy in the dense forest.

[Durandal]

Anyone with any agenda can easily become a lifetime member of the NRA, so the fact that he's done so is not remotely impressive. Thus, the fact that Moore has done so DOES NOT provide "contradictory evidence" of anything.

Are you being this thick-headed on purpose? You're implying that Moore simply got a lifetime membership with the NRA to make it look like he doesn't have an agenda and for no other reason. When I point out that the guy has been in shooting competitions and grown up around guns in rural Michigan, you just repeat your original argument. This is the second time I've explained this to you. Is it getting through yet?

And, as I already said, who cares? The point is that BFC supported the NRA's central position, which is that guns are not at fault and should not be banned because of human foibles. Moore agrees with that statement, which is the same message presented by BFC.

So then what the fuck are you arguing? That Moore agrees with the NRA, but he has an agenda against them, and he got a lifetime membership with the NRA for the express purpose of making it look like he doesn't have an agenda against them?

[Elfdart]

Anyone with any agenda can easily become a lifetime member of the NRA, so the fact that he's done so is not remotely impressive. Thus, the fact that Moore has done so DOES NOT provide "contradictory evidence" of anything.

Are you being this thick-headed on purpose? You're implying that Moore simply got a lifetime membership with the NRA to make it look like he doesn't have an agenda and for no other reason. When I point out that the guy has been in shooting competitions and grown up around guns in rural Michigan, you just repeat your original argument. This is the second time I've explained this to you. Is it getting through yet?

And, as I already said, who cares? The point is that BFC supported the NRA's central position, which is that guns are not at fault and should not be banned because of human foibles. Moore agrees with that statement, which is the same message presented by BFC.

So then what the fuck are you arguing? That Moore agrees with the NRA, but he has an agenda against them, and he got a lifetime membership with the NRA for the express purpose of making it look like he doesn't have an agenda against them?

Durandal is right. Rural Michigan is proof that rednecks do exist North of the Mason-Dixon Line.

[Galvatron]

[Master of Ossus]

Anyone with any agenda can easily become a lifetime member of the NRA, so the fact that he's done so is not remotely impressive. Thus, the fact that Moore has done so DOES NOT provide "contradictory evidence" of anything.

Are you being this thick-headed on purpose? You're implying that Moore simply got a lifetime membership with the NRA to make it look like he doesn't have an agenda and for no other reason. When I point out that the guy has been in shooting competitions and grown up around guns in rural Michigan, you just repeat your original argument.

Are you deliberately ignoring my points? The fact that he grew up in rural Michigan means nothing, since anyone can grow up anywhere and have any agenda that they like. Moreover, you were using the fact that he was an NRA member to explain that Moore was doing nothing to attack their political agenda. You have yet to show that lifetime membership in the NRA prevents someone from opposing their political agenda.

Are you deliberately throwing out random red herrings or are you actually trying to use them to show something?

And, as I already said, who cares? The point is that BFC supported the NRA's central position, which is that guns are not at fault and should not be banned because of human foibles. Moore agrees with that statement, which is the same message presented by BFC.

So then what the fuck are you arguing? That Moore agrees with the NRA, but he has an agenda against them, and he got a lifetime membership with the NRA for the express purpose of making it look like he doesn't have an agenda against them?

No, dumbass, I've already explained that BFC does nothing to attack the NRA, but that it attacks the personalities of certain gun-owners. It is thus incomprehensible to me why so many people claim that BFC is some damning indictment of the NRA.

[MKSheppard]

Damn right Galvy, that's one of the most effective anti trespassing
signs i've seen.

[Durandal]

Are you deliberately ignoring my points? The fact that he grew up in rural Michigan means nothing, since anyone can grow up anywhere and have any agenda that they like. Moreover, you were using the fact that he was an NRA member to explain that Moore was doing nothing to attack their political agenda. You have yet to show that lifetime membership in the NRA prevents someone from opposing their political agenda.

I mentioned that he was a lifetime NRA member in the context of, "Well it's not surprising that he doesn't attack the NRA's core ideals; he's a lifetime member." Are we to be surprised every time a member of a certain organization actually supports that organization's principles?