Can Dominion phased polorn beams penetrate Imperial shields

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-06-16 10:41am

I think not. Poloron beams are designed to penetrate trek shielding. Since Imperial shields operate on totaly different principles they should be immune.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-06-16 11:08am

That, and thier shields are so strong, that they wouldn't even notice the beams.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-06-16 11:27am

Even if they did manage to penetrate, odds are the beam would barely scratch the Imp's armour. They certainly wouldn't have time to cause any real damage before they got shredded by TL fire.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-16 01:30pm

There is no precident for any sort of weapons penetrating Imperial shields without knocking them down. There is ample precident for things penetrating Trek shields without bringing down shields first.

These include but are not necessarily limited to:
X-rays in TNG Symbiosis,
Borg transporters in TNG Q Who?
Lysian disruptors in TNG Conundrum
a nucleonic beam in TNG The Inner Light
psychic weapons in TNG Gambit II
obviously, Dominion polaron beams in DS9 The Dominion

It seems likely that with all of these examples of things penetrating Federation shields, the polaron weapons are simply taking advantage of a weakness that was already present in the shields.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-16 02:19pm

Trek ships are deliberately designed to allow passage of things through their shields, such as communications and even sensor data. They allow weapons fire to pass out. They are intentionally porous, thus opening up the possibility of an exploit. Imperial shields, on the other hand, are not designed in such a manner, which is why they have to drop local shields in order to use Holo-Net communications among other things.

It's like asking if you can use a remote buffer exploit on a computer that isn't connected to the Internet. First you have to show that there is some vulnerability to expoit, rather than bragging about how great your exploit is.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-06-16 02:42pm

Howedar wrote: Lysian disruptors in TNG Conundrum

Just clarification...

You do mean the memory erasing weapon, right? Not actual anti-ship weapons?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-06-16 03:36pm

Well. IIRC, there have been a couple of incidents with strange star radiation going through Imperial shielding (Nklon and Athega, I think). It shouldn't be imposible to develop some kind of weapon designed to exploit that weakness. Of course, the probabilities of Dominion polaron beams piercing through Imp shields because of that one weakness are next to zero.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-16 03:52pm

Murazor wrote:Well. IIRC, there have been a couple of incidents with strange star radiation going through Imperial shielding (Nklon and Athega, I think). It shouldn't be imposible to develop some kind of weapon designed to exploit that weakness. Of course, the probabilities of Dominion polaron beams piercing through Imp shields because of that one weakness are next to zero.

Nope, it was only evident that sensors and similar equipment were burned away, which makes sense since they would have to poke outside the shield in order to operate. The same may be true for the tips of gun barrels, particularly light guns (how many holes would one want to have to track and open in a shield, considering the sheer number of light guns on an ISD?).

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-06-16 03:59pm

Well. That's a good explanation that fits with the incident, I think.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-16 05:17pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Howedar wrote: Lysian disruptors in TNG Conundrum
Just clarification...

You do mean the memory erasing weapon, right? Not actual anti-ship weapons?

No, the antiship weapons caused the ship to shake without lowering shields. Therefore they must have penetrated the shields, since the energy of the beams themselves is insignificant next to the mass of a GCS.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-06-16 05:34pm

Howedar wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Howedar wrote: Lysian disruptors in TNG Conundrum
Just clarification...

You do mean the memory erasing weapon, right? Not actual anti-ship weapons?
No, the antiship weapons caused the ship to shake without lowering shields. Therefore they must have penetrated the shields, since the energy of the beams themselves is insignificant next to the mass of a GCS.

Ships have shaken before from weapon impacts to shields. Reference STG, STN, and TNG Unification. Not to mention some Voyager episodes where the ship is being hit by nukes launched from a planet and the shields are holding but the ship is shaking.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-16 05:54pm

Can you think of a reason for that aside from something getting through the shields?

The only possible reasons the ship could shake are:
A. the energy of the shot itself was high enough to impart significant kinetic energy to the ship
B. something got through the shields and caused something else

A is very often impossible simply due to the low amount of energy being thrown about.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-06-16 08:54pm

Darth Wong wrote: Nope, it was only evident that sensors and similar equipment were burned away, which makes sense since they would have to poke outside the shield in order to operate. The same may be true for the tips of gun barrels, particularly light guns (how many holes would one want to have to track and open in a shield, considering the sheer number of light guns on an ISD?).

Okay, going up against the Wongster himself may not be the smartest thing I ever did, but what evidence do we have for Wars vessels poking stuff outside their shields?
Especially since there is evidence they don't NEED to?
We already KNOW Wars shields are selective in what they stop, because shielded ships are still visible (unless you're arguing visible-light lasers can hurt Wars vessels).
Furthermore, there is not a single incident of somebody blowing off exposed antennae/ gun barrels in all of canon / official SW I can remember, despite just about everyone having the targeting resolution and firepower to do so.
Personally, I assume that Wars shields work the same as just about every other SF shield ever created:
-It's semi-permeable where weapons are concerned, i.e. you can fire outside from within but not vice-versa, and
-it's arbitrarily selective WRT sensors.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-17 12:14am

Batman wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Nope, it was only evident that sensors and similar equipment were burned away, which makes sense since they would have to poke outside the shield in order to operate. The same may be true for the tips of gun barrels, particularly light guns (how many holes would one want to have to track and open in a shield, considering the sheer number of light guns on an ISD?).
Okay, going up against the Wongster himself may not be the smartest thing I ever did, but what evidence do we have for Wars vessels poking stuff outside their shields?

If they need to lower shields to use the Holo-Net, it stands to reason that they would need to lower shields for other kinds of sensor as well (comm systems and sensors are closely related). Also, the droidekas in TPM seemed to be poking their guns through their bubbles when they fired.

Especially since there is evidence they don't NEED to?
We already KNOW Wars shields are selective in what they stop, because shielded ships are still visible (unless you're arguing visible-light lasers can hurt Wars vessels).
Furthermore, there is not a single incident of somebody blowing off exposed antennae/ gun barrels in all of canon / official SW I can remember, despite just about everyone having the targeting resolution and firepower to do so.
Personally, I assume that Wars shields work the same as just about every other SF shield ever created:
-It's semi-permeable where weapons are concerned, i.e. you can fire outside from within but not vice-versa, and
-it's arbitrarily selective WRT sensors.

Then perhaps you could explain why you can set off thermonuclear explosions outside Ackbar's window but brief exposure to intense sunlight swiftly burns off an ISD's sensors.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-06-17 04:06am

Howedar wrote:Can you think of a reason for that aside from something getting through the shields?

The only possible reasons the ship could shake are:
A. the energy of the shot itself was high enough to impart significant kinetic energy to the ship
B. something got through the shields and caused something else

A is very often impossible simply due to the low amount of energy being thrown about.

I know where you are coming from but you must remember ST ships use mass manipulation technology. Therefore what you think should shake the ship isn't necessarily the case.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-17 04:07am

Goddamnit I hate Star Trek.

Conceded.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-06-17 04:17am

Howedar wrote:Goddamnit I hate Star Trek.

Conceded.

Yeah, I had to get use to the fact that there is a god damn explanation for everything. Imagine trying to argue weapons firepower when someone throws "NDF" in your face. It's fucking frustrating!

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-17 04:09pm

Actually, there is a weapon in Star Wars that ignores shields.

From the Tie Fighter video games: Magpulse Torpedoes
From the novels
Magnetic Cannon (Zsinnji's weapon)

Apparently, insanely powerful, concentrated magnetic bursts can do it.

teleguy · Post by **teleguy** » 2004-06-17 04:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Murazor wrote:Well. IIRC, there have been a couple of incidents with strange star radiation going through Imperial shielding (Nklon and Athega, I think). It shouldn't be imposible to develop some kind of weapon designed to exploit that weakness. Of course, the probabilities of Dominion polaron beams piercing through Imp shields because of that one weakness are next to zero.
Nope, it was only evident that sensors and similar equipment were burned away, which makes sense since they would have to poke outside the shield in order to operate. The same may be true for the tips of gun barrels, particularly light guns (how many holes would one want to have to track and open in a shield, considering the sheer number of light guns on an ISD?).

I think the Athega system's still our best bet. Or it will be if we can find a way around the problems of the sunlight intensity there."

"The problems will be minimal," Thrawn said with easy confidence. "If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment."

Explain how something can burn away that isn't there ?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-17 04:10pm

They still have some senors to fly and target with

teleguy · Post by **teleguy** » 2004-06-17 04:20pm

No all sensors were removed, because Pellaeon reflects that the Stardestroyer would be blind and deaf. They had to use the lunatic Jedimaster C'baoth to guide it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-17 04:20pm

teleguy wrote:
I think the Athega system's still our best bet. Or it will be if we can find a way around the problems of the sunlight intensity there."

"The problems will be minimal," Thrawn said with easy confidence. "If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment."
Explain how something can burn away that isn't there ?

Care to explain how this changes the fact that the only dialogue about damage to the ship was the Rebels' expectation that the sensors would be burned off?

teleguy · Post by **teleguy** » 2004-06-17 04:33pm

Apart from the Judicator having to undergo one to several week long repairs?

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-17 05:19pm

Those repairs were spent removing the external sensor and communication equipment, as the quote you provided says. This is helping Darth Wong's point, is it not?

teleguy · Post by **teleguy** » 2004-06-17 05:46pm

Sensors and communication equipment were removed before the Judicator entered the Athega system, the repairs I mentioned were done after the Judicator had suffered radiation damage from Athega's sun. One point you could make is that they had to reinstall the sensors but that certainly wouldn't take weeks since it took only days to remove them.