Wehrmacht forces vs the Goa'uld

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2004-06-19 01:58am

Ok, Due to Bordom, Q scoops up a force of German soldiers, and sends them against the Snakeheads when Anubus is begining to attack the system lords. Each German soldier is given a book containing a list of Gate Co ordenates leading to goa'uld inhabited worlds (Earth not being one of them), and info on there worlds. They are made to think that Hitler sent them to conquor the System lords. The force is...

250,000 Infantrymen with Mauser rifles with 14 clips, 8 Potato mashers and a bayonet
100,000 Infantry with MP40s with 6 clips, 8 Potato Masher grenades and a bayonet
50,000 Infantry with MP43s with 6 clips, 8 Potato mashers and a bayonet
15,000 Infantry with Pistols with 4 clips, MG42s and 1,000 rounds of ammo

Each infantryman gets 15 days worth of rations, and they start on a planet with no people on it.

So do the Krauts win?

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-06-19 02:22am

Hard to say: Although an individual Wehrmacht soldier is far superior to a Jaffa warrior, we really don't know how many Jaffa warriors there are total. Also, the Germans would be at a disadvantage without air support...

BTW: You know, 415,000 soldiers constitutes an entire Army Group, which is well endowed with all types of ground equipment (as it includes complete divisions, inculding tanks divisions: each division contains support formations like AA battallions), and likely includes some Waffen SS formations as well. I wonder if Stargates are wide enough to drive tanks through them...

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2004-06-19 03:26am

It would be intresting to see if the Germans could get away with steeling a Ha'tak or some Gliders, and they probably would steel Zats and Staffs as well.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-19 03:48am

The Germans have no way of combating there enemies air, let alone space power. They lose badly though it might take a while for them to all be killed or captured. Against just foot mobile Jaffa (a far better comparision given that you haven't even given them platoon level weapons let alone heavy equipment) they could secure victory however, even if the Jaffa's armor can stop 7.92x57mm ball ammo.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2004-06-19 12:09pm

A more realistic force would do well against Jaffa force as long as the Jaffa don't have any shielded craft. The German's 20mm AA should be effective against gliders and although MP-40s shouldn't be much of a threat against armoured Jaffa the Mausers might be fairly effective.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-19 04:28pm

Considering the complete lack of damage to a glider when a staff weapon is fired at it, I'm not convinced that 20mm fire would take one down. I'm not saying it wouldn't, mind, but we know that gliders are somewhat durable.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-19 04:56pm

We've seen a Death Glider shot down by a Stinger, 20mm cannon fire would certainly be effective.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-19 05:12pm

Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

Why dont they have panzefausts?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-19 05:13pm

wautd wrote: vc jaffa weapons

typo (damn alcohol) i meant: vs jaffa armor

Dirty Harry · Post by **Dirty Harry** » 2004-06-19 06:37pm

wautd wrote:Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

What makes you think that?, We have seen Jaffa footsloggers being positively murdered by SG teams armed with a variety of Firearms (M4's , FN p90's, Beretta 9mm pistols). So what makes you think that the Wermachts weaponry will not be effective?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-06-19 09:03pm

Howedar wrote:Considering the complete lack of damage to a glider when a staff weapon is fired at it, I'm not convinced that 20mm fire would take one down. I'm not saying it wouldn't, mind, but we know that gliders are somewhat durable.

We have seen a single M203 grenade take down a glider. A Stinger missile is even more effective. 20mm fire is more then sufficent. Infact AP MG-42 rounds should even be sufficent in high quantities.

RedX · Post by **RedX** » 2004-06-19 10:06pm

Concentrated MG42 fire will suffice against the Death Gliders, but if the System Lords bring up anything bigger (with sheilds...) all that infantry is a sitting duck.

Also note that fifteen days of rations is a bit... low? Not to mention they're missing all their OTHER gear.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-06-20 02:17am

Rifle fire? That might be pushing it. Unless the Goa'uld have and use alloys that are vastly more effective against thermal weapons than kinetic impactors, I'd be surprised if anything truly man-portable would do the job.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2004-06-20 01:27pm

Dirty Harry wrote:
wautd wrote:Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

What makes you think that?, We have seen Jaffa footsloggers being positively murdered by SG teams armed with a variety of Firearms (M4's , FN p90's, Beretta 9mm pistols). So what makes you think that the Wermachts weaponry will not be effective?

They use special ammunition which the Germans won't have access to. Rifles and machine guns should do okay though. A lot of Jaffa don't use the full armour though so their heads and limbs will be vulnerable.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 02:54am

Dirty Harry wrote:
wautd wrote:Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

What makes you think that?, We have seen Jaffa footsloggers being positively murdered by SG teams armed with a variety of Firearms (M4's , FN p90's, Beretta 9mm pistols). So what makes you think that the Wermachts weaponry will not be effective?

If an M16 has trouble with the armor than surely a MP40 or luger

+ for what soulman said

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-21 04:12am

Soulman wrote:
They use special ammunition which the Germans won't have access to.

Its called armor piercing, and the German's certainly did have such ammunition for their rifles and machine guns, though it wasn't really standard issue in WW2. There also shooting that ammo out of guns far more powerful then the short barreled 5.56 or 5.7mm weapons used by SG1 and the rest of the Stargate crew. Heck, .30-06 ball will often pierce armor that will stop 5.56x45mm rounds fired from a full barreled M16 so they might not even need more then normal ball ammunition to do the job.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 04:52am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Soulman wrote:
They use special ammunition which the Germans won't have access to.
5.56 or 5.7mm weapons used by SG1 and the rest of the Stargate crew.

If your talking about the FN-P90 than your horribly underestimating the power of that weapon. Small, yes but doesnt makes it weak. It uses standard copkiller bullets by the way (able in penetrating multiple kevlar vests)

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 04:55am

wautd wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Soulman wrote:
They use special ammunition which the Germans won't have access to.
5.56 or 5.7mm weapons used by SG1 and the rest of the Stargate crew.
If your talking about the FN-P90 than your horribly underestimating the power of that weapon. Small, yes but doesnt makes it weak. It uses standard copkiller bullets by the way (able in penetrating multiple kevlar vests)

sorry i se eyou were comparing the 5.56 from an M16 and not the 5.70 from the P90

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 05:12am

Dirty Harry wrote:
wautd wrote:Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

What makes you think that?, We have seen Jaffa footsloggers being positively murdered by SG teams armed with Beretta 9mm pistols

Really? Are you sure it were beretta's? (because 9mm isnt effective at penetrating body armor. It would be more logical if they used the Five-Seven tactical which uses the same ammo as the P90:

The 5.7x28mm weapon system is comprised of three components: the 5.7x28mm ammunition, the P90 Sub-machine gun, and the Five-seveN handguns. The 5.7x28mm SS190 ammunition has been designed to bridge the gap between the 9mm ammunition and the 5.56 x 45mm. The 9mm FMJ round will not penetrate modern body armor and the 5.56mm (.223 Rem.) rifle ammunition creates over-penetration concerns in a close combat situation or urban warfare. The SS190 has unique design, utilizing two metal inserts. The tip of the ogive has a steel penetrator followed by an aluminum core that is heavier than the forward tip. This causes the bullet to tumble in soft body tissue after 2 inches of penetration. This design virtually eliminates the risk of over penetration. This also creates a large wound cavity and quick incapacitation. The SS190 will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters when fired from the P90 and achieve the same result up to 50 meters with the Five-seveN handgun. The 5.7 ammunition has only 60% of the recoil impulse of a 9mm. The muzzle velocity of the SS190 is 2,346fps when fired from the P90 and 2,133fps with the Five-seveN. Tracer, Sub Sonic, Training and Blank ammunition available

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-21 05:27am

wautd wrote:
If your talking about the FN-P90 than your horribly underestimating the power of that weapon.

No, I'm quite confident that I know what I'm talking about.

Small, yes but doesnt makes it weak.

Its certainly weak compared to a 5.56x45mm rifle round. Or do you wish to claim that FN is so good that it can make a 5.7x28mm cartridge more powerful then something a significant fraction larger in terms of propellant capacity?

Hell, lets run the numbers, first for 5.7x28mm. A 31 grain bullet and 750 m/s of muzzle velocity gives a muzzle energy of 515 joules. Now 5.56x45mm (SS109 to be specific), a 62 grain bullet and a muzzle velocity of about 945 m/s at the muzzle gives a muzzle energy of 1799 joules, a mere advantage of about 350%. That yields a rather huge boost in the penetration of 5.56x45mm compared to FN's far weaker SS190 round. But that should be no surprise since the very point of the SS190 round and the P90 was to provide an armor piercing submachine gun with capabilities in-between a 9mm submachine and a 5.56mm carbine, the carbine barrel results in a muzzle velocity of significantly less then 945 m/s BTW.

7.92x57mm sails past them both when fired from a Gewehr 98k with 2854 joules of muzzel energy, a 154 grain bullet at 755 m/s. I somhow suspect that a bullet with over five times the energy will be effective against that jaffa armor.

It uses standard copkiller bullets by the way (able in penetrating multiple kevlar vests)

Yes, your use of 80's media slang certainly does imrpess me with your knowledge. And you even manage to be wrong on it as well. The so called cop killer bullets where merely bullets which had steel rather then lead cores, and even then they where generally hard pressed to pierce one side of Level II police body armor. Multiple vests are out of the question. The SS190 bullet used by the P90 is far more complex then simple steel cored round. It utilizes a hardened steel nose in the point, but the body of the round has an aluminum core, which is suppose to break off as the bullet pierces armor. That greatly widens the damage path and thus the rounds stopping power. The S109 round is of similar construction, both being Semi Armor Piercing.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 05:31am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
wautd wrote:
Yes, your use of 80's media slang certainly does imrpess me with your knowledge. And you even manage to be wrong on it as well. The so called cop killer bullets where merely bullets which had steel rather then lead cores, and even then they where generally hard pressed to pierce one side of Level II police body armor. Multiple vests are out of the question. The SS190 bullet used by the P90 is far more complex then simple steel cored round. It utilizes a hardened steel nose in the point, but the body of the round has an aluminum core, which is suppose to break off as the bullet pierces armor. That greatly widens the damage path and thus the rounds stopping power. The S109 round is of similar construction, both being Semi Armor Piercing.

conceeded

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-06-21 06:26am

wautd wrote:Really? Are you sure it were beretta's? (because 9mm isnt effective at penetrating body armor. It would be more logical if they used the Five-Seven tactical which uses the same ammo as the P90:

We have seen Jaffa being taken down with Berettas (e.g. in "Double Jeopardy", the episode where the robotic SG-1 clones were killed). Can't remember ever seeing Five-seveN's in SG-1, but I've only seen the first four seasons.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-06-21 06:51am

Sir Sirius wrote:
wautd wrote:Really? Are you sure it were beretta's? (because 9mm isnt effective at penetrating body armor. It would be more logical if they used the Five-Seven tactical which uses the same ammo as the P90:
We have seen Jaffa being taken down with Berettas (e.g. in "Double Jeopardy", the episode where the robotic SG-1 clones were killed). Can't remember ever seeing Five-seveN's in SG-1, but I've only seen the first four seasons.

Well its been a while i saw SG so my memory is clouded. Wasnt it so that in the movie and the first episodes the jaffa armor seemed more effective against firearms than in later episodes?

But i do think the krauts will win tough. Jaffa armor gives them an advantage but the staff weapon aint that great

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-06-21 08:49am

wautd wrote: Well its been a while i saw SG so my memory is clouded. Wasnt it so that in the movie and the first episodes the jaffa armor seemed more effective against firearms than in later episodes?

Only in the opening part of the pilot. Simple enough to explain, the SGC just started using armour piercing ammunition.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-06-21 01:15pm

wautd wrote:
Dirty Harry wrote:
wautd wrote:Imo pistols and mp40's will be useless vc jaffa weapons

What makes you think that?, We have seen Jaffa footsloggers being positively murdered by SG teams armed with a variety of Firearms (M4's , FN p90's, Beretta 9mm pistols). So what makes you think that the Wermachts weaponry will not be effective?
If an M16 has trouble with the armor than surely a MP40 or luger

+ for what soulman said

The M16 has never had any trouble getting through Jaffa armor. The only time we have seen difficulty getting through Jaffa or Serpent Guards armor was in Children of the Gods when the Airmen were using old XM-177s without AP rounds and when the second mission to Abidos also went without AP rounds.