Yoda or Emperor? Raw force power...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-17 09:46pm

This was supposed to be Yoda's force ability vs. Palpatine's force ability, not the Empire vs. Yoda.

Then again if you wanted to go that route, okay fine, let's say Palpatine has the entire military at his command to exterminate the Jedi and MAKE SURE TO GET YODA THIS TIME.

But then Yoda has 10,000 Jedi Knights at his command (note: it's not like he'd have a lot of trouble convincing them all since he's the most respected member of the Jedi Council & trainer of younglings).

True, the Jedi can be overwhelmed by superior numbers, but at this point, the "Empire" has "only" the 1.2 million Clonetroopers (if Palpy wants to use those Sector fleets, first he has to convince everyone that the Jedi need to be killed and get control of them). Sure, the Jedi haven't been shown to have any air power other than those slick little "Jedi Starfighters" (vs. acclamators? and can LAATs fight in space? we know they can fly in space according to the cartoon series). The Jedi are vastly outnumbered, though, the Clonetroopers are very suspeptible to Force manipulation, so you'd think the Jedi would have an easy time of it (UNLESS... PALPATINE CAN CONTROL THEM ALL WITH THE FORCE! sort of like the Droid Control Ship.. somebody has to assasinate Palpy to "shut off" the clones, heh, or something, now I'm just rambling here).

But when it comes down to it, we're saying that it's Force vs. Force. Palpatine seems to have vastly more power than Yoda, but in pure combat abilities we literally have not seen Palpatine do anything except throw force lightning (from both hands, but still) at an unarmed Jedi who refuses to fight. If we go by the Expanded Universe, then yes, Palpatine would kick his ass, unless Yoda knew the "trick" to beating him (make his tummy glow and use the "power of luminous beings"), or unless the "Force Storms" and other wankery his clone wields is something learned later.

Because theoretically Palpy could just have the Death Star shoot the planet that he and Yoda are on, and just have a clone tube waiting for him on a nearby ship to slip into afterward.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-06-18 04:54am

I think a question that is more relevant to this board would be: who is more likely to engage in anal sex?

That definitely goes to the emperor.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-18 02:44pm

But if we are talking about Oral sex it goes to Yoda. His size gives him a natural advantage over Palpatine.

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2004-06-19 12:33am

I have to put my money on Yoda mainly because

1. Yoda can absorb and redirect Force lightning attacks thus taking Palpy's advantage away.
2. With the Force flowing through him, Yoda can move at phenomonal speed and with amazing agility.
3. He can use the Force to move objects in the environment
4. With these and many more abilities plus expertise in lightsaber dueling

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-06-19 12:54am

Stofsk wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:i thought anakin was supposed to be the most powerful force user ever?
He just has the highest midichloran count ever. What the fuck that means, no-one knows. Or maybe they do, they're just not telling.

Maybe Palpatine is the real Chosen One, and the Jedi confused him with Anakin due to his midichloran count.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-19 01:17am

I doubt it, considering Palpatine was just as unbalanced as the Jedi Order was to the Force. Both were extremes. Indeed, I would say Luke was the real 'Chosen One' given that when he became a Jedi he seemed to combine both philosophies.

And if it weren't for Anakin you wouldn't get Luke. So go figure.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-06-19 02:45am

Trekdestroyer wrote:1. Yoda can absorb and redirect Force lightning attacks thus taking Palpy's advantage away.

We have no idea how more powerful Palpatine's lightning is compared to Dooku's, so there's no way to tell here how well Yoda would absorb it. Also, Palpy can call on Force storms.

2. With the Force flowing through him, Yoda can move at phenomonal speed and with amazing agility.

Since he is perhaps the most powerful Force user who ever lived, I see no reason why Palpy can't use the Force to do this as well.

3. He can use the Force to move objects in the environment

So can Palpy.

4. With these and many more abilities plus expertise in lightsaber dueling

Palpatine, like all Sith has his own lightsaber. We have no idea how skilled he is with it, since we've never seen him use it. But, given what we know of his Force abilities compared to what we know of Yoda's, I doubt he'd even have to use it.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-06-19 04:35pm

I doubt he'd even have to use it

I have always suspected this when it comes to him. In Return of the Jedi, he never even got close to one and, when it came time for him to kick ass, he just used his force lightning. I think we could make a case for the Emperor being really just too much of a bad ass to ever have to use his lightsaber.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-06-20 12:14am

President Sharky wrote:I don't see Yoda clouding the minds of billions of beings in order to secretly bury a 11-mile Super Star Destroyer under the surface of Coruscant.

No need for him to do so

I don't see Yoda hiding from Sith while standing no less than 2 meters away from them.

Because he does not ned to.

I don't see Yoda creating anything resembling the awsome power of a Force Strom.

He does not need to

Palpatine wins this one hands down.

You havent proven it with your post

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-06-20 12:20am

Superman wrote:
I doubt he'd even have to use it
I have always suspected this when it comes to him. In Return of the Jedi, he never even got close to one and, when it came time for him to kick ass, he just used his force lightning. I think we could make a case for the Emperor being really just too much of a bad ass to ever have to use his lightsaber.

I think its more a case of Palpy knowing that the path to power was not by naked force so much as manipulation of the political process to have others give him the power over the Republic. Could he use a lightsabre? probably but if you control a galaxy, why bother?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-20 12:22am

There was a section on this in the Dark Fleet Trilogy (for those who actually read it), where Luke discusses his new insight into the force, that is later, somewhat, confirmed by the Hand of Thrawn duology.

Luke says Ben and Yoda were at least equal to Palpatine in their control of the force, stating that real control of the force was measured in part by not rippling the waves. Where Luke can draw upon the force by almost brutish means, but real masters are like artists. And he suspects that in part is why Ben and Yoda could hide so well. For those who'll bring up the dark and light brought up in the Thrawn trilogy, perhaps the cave did help, but was meant to train Luke and hide Luke's fledgling force capabilities.

Also, Yoda makes the statement that the dark side is NOT more powerful, but quicker and easier to use. And also that the users of the light side of the force never drew upon it as much, where those who went to the Darkside sought too much control over it.

So in the end, maybe Palpy wasn't as strong as Yoda, but because the darkside was a lot easier to use it made him strong?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-06-20 12:25am

Trytostaydead wrote:There was a section on this in the Dark Fleet Trilogy (for those who actually read it), where Luke discusses his new insight into the force, that is later, somewhat, confirmed by the Hand of Thrawn duology.

Luke says Ben and Yoda were at least equal to Palpatine in their control of the force, stating that real control of the force was measured in part by not rippling the waves. Where Luke can draw upon the force by almost brutish means, but real masters are like artists. And he suspects that in part is why Ben and Yoda could hide so well. For those who'll bring up the dark and light brought up in the Thrawn trilogy, perhaps the cave did help, but was meant to train Luke and hide Luke's fledgling force capabilities.

Also, Yoda makes the statement that the dark side is NOT more powerful, but quicker and easier to use. And also that the users of the light side of the force never drew upon it as much, where those who went to the Darkside sought too much control over it.

So in the end, maybe Palpy wasn't as strong as Yoda, but because the darkside was a lot easier to use it made him strong?

Sounds reasonable, you get everything you want with the darkside but you sacfrafice your body, soul, and mind...but the lightside allows you great things over time, but you get to keep your body.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-06-20 05:24am

Also, Yoda makes the statement that the dark side is NOT more powerful, but quicker and easier to use.

But it's possible that Palpy has reached a level that Yoda has not. Like a major league baseball player going up against a minor leager. They're both good, they both play baseball but they are not equal in skill.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-06-20 05:39am

Luke's assessment of Yoda and Ben as "equals" to the Emperor comes before Palpatine's return in Dark Empire, where he showcases his immeasurable power in the form of Force Storms, mind transference, and the extension of his will. At that point, Luke still did not know the true power of the Emperor and of the Dark Side.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-06-21 03:48am

President Sharky wrote:Luke's assessment of Yoda and Ben as "equals" to the Emperor comes before Palpatine's return in Dark Empire, where he showcases his immeasurable power in the form of Force Storms, mind transference, and the extension of his will. At that point, Luke still did not know the true power of the Emperor and of the Dark Side.

False. Totally false. The Black Fleet Trilogy takes place after Dark Empire, as several times during the trilogy it is mentioned that Coruscant was badly damaged by a force storm casted by Palpatine's clone. And Luke is a bit unhappy about the fact that Leia doesn't want to undergo Jedi training in spite of her enormous power, shown when she helped him on board the Eclipse. Finally, the three Solo kids are around during the BF trilogy and IIRC during Dark Empire Anakin was still a phoetus (sp?)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-21 04:58am

Murazor wrote:False. Totally false. The Black Fleet Trilogy takes place after Dark Empire, as several times during the trilogy it is mentioned that Coruscant was badly damaged by a force storm casted by Palpatine's clone. And Luke is a bit unhappy about the fact that Leia doesn't want to undergo Jedi training in spite of her enormous power, shown when she helped him on board the Eclipse. Finally, the three Solo kids are around during the BF trilogy and IIRC during Dark Empire Anakin was still a phoetus (sp?)

Foetus, and Anakin was born in DE2.

It's odd people are throwing Dark Empire level Palpatine at Yoda, as if saying it gives Palpatine an automatic "Fatality!" over the green guy.

Who the fuck trained Luke as a Jedi? Yoda. And who the fuck kicked Palpatine's arse in Dark Empire? Leia (and Luke

). And how did they do it? Some kind of light side karma thing, where Palpy's force storm get's redirected and EATS HIM.

There's a reason why Palpatine is never seen directly confronting the Jedi. It's because he's a manipulator. He works best behind the scenes, pulling the strings, making people make arses of themselves. Yoda works in a similar fashion, but we also see him in a fight. We KNOW that Yoda can absorb some level of Force Lightning - perhaps not Palpatine level, but we don't know the mechanics of force lightning anyway; even IF Palpatine's Force Lightning is better or stronger it STILL doesn't matter because Yoda has a LIGHTSABRE, and thanks to AOTC we now know that lightsabres can absorb FL. We KNOW that Yoda can flip around idiotically with a lightsabre, and drive back a Sith swordmaster like Dooku. True, Yoda didn't slice him apart, but Dooku wasn't exactly sticking around for Round 2 either. Finally Palpatine died in ROTJ because Anakin threw him off a fucking balcony. Yoda lived for 900 years and died in bed, with a friend to be with him, and he became One with the Force or something.

hvb · Post by **hvb** » 2004-06-21 06:44am

I'd put it like this:

Yoda is stronger in the force, giving him better insight among other things, and enjoys better control over the force through the flow state the jedi describe as letting go one's consious self or being one with the force.

Darth Sidius is more powerful, but only because he is drawing on the brute force aspect known as the dark side, and that may well cause him to have rather less control over the force then Yoda does; remember that Palpatine is proud of his mastery (read control) over the dark side, because that is the difficult aspect of his chosen path. It does not have a natural flow state other then rage, which is not good for keeping a cool head and maintaining a plan of action in a duel, be it on sabre or lightning.

So using his rage, the Emperor can manipulate more people and make more spectacular manifestations of the force then Yoda, but the scaffolding on which it rests is far more inflexible and succeptible to collapse in a blind rage, and it can only be used in association with negative feelings.

i.e. Palpy could not go "these are not the droids you are looking for" ... "you can go about your business"... "move along", as they rely on manipulation of calm contemplation and logic.
He woud be limited to the use and inducement of anger/resentment/jealousy/etc. to gain a similar effect: "you are angry these are not the droids you are looking for"..."you commanding officer is wasting your time putting you on this dead end assignment"..."you want us to move this vehicle along so it doesn't remind you of that new skimmer you can't afford".

so the dark side is more powerful only from a certain point of view, while it is less flexible and with less control and margine for error.

All of which is a long way of saying that Palpy is better suited to running the Impire then Yoda would be (not that he would want to), but Palpy might just loose it all in a fit of anger if he and Yoda went head-to-head.
Of course as Yoda is the only real Ace in the jedi sleeve until Luke is trained he cannot gamble with himself on a "might just".

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-21 07:26am

hvb wrote:Of course as Yoda is the only real Ace in the jedi sleeve until Luke is trained he cannot gamble with himself on a "might just".

You could always view Luke as the ace in the sleeve, with Yoda being the guy holding the deck. Sending Luke against Anakin/Darth Vader was a monumental gamble, and wasn't planned at all. Yoda wanted Lukt to stay and complete his training. Maybe he had a different idea in store for Luke's confrontation?

On the other hand, maybe Luke rushing recklessly to his duel was fortuitous. Who knows?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-21 04:49pm

Wait a second, didn't Yoda mind trick a million people in order to take over the Death Star in ANH Infinities?

Whoa. ; )

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-21 04:51pm

Kurgan wrote:Wait a second, didn't Yoda mind trick a million people in order to take over the Death Star in ANH Infinities?

Whoa. ; )

Yeah, and in the ROTJ Infinities Darth Vader turned and became the White Knight, because he didn't die. I'm not fucking kidding.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-21 04:53pm

Also, Yoda makes the statement that the dark side is NOT more powerful, but quicker and easier to use. And also that the users of the light side of the force never drew upon it as much, where those who went to the Darkside sought too much control over it.

I'd have to lookup the context again (It may have been about why Palpatine can stay hidden from the Jedi), but on the AOTC DVD commentary, George Lucas states that the Darkside IS stronger (contradicting Yoda's line in ESB).

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-06-21 05:57pm

Well, perhaps we can take the ESB line as absolute canon over what GL says in a commentary. If it is said in the movie already, then I don't think George can really override it. Just like George can't tell us the Wampa is actually pink in ESB, because we clearly see a white Wampa and visual-canon overrides commentary-canon.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-21 06:42pm

Just because we don't see Yoda doing something doesn't mean Yoda can't do it.

The Force storm, or even force lightening, etc, seem to be a preference for those on the Dark Side probably because of its wanton and indiscriminate violence it unleashes. Which is not to say Yoda couldn't do it either.

As Luke said on Dathomir, the essence of the Force though isn't really in what you use, but why you're using it.

A force storm is just pure manifested malevolence. And those MASTERS of the light, sought understanding of the force rather than control.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-06-21 06:48pm

Shogoki wrote:Maybe Palpatine is the real Chosen One, and the Jedi confused him with Anakin due to his midichloran count.

The way I've always seen it is thus: Balance does not always = good. Hear me out. What is evil without good, right? IIRC, anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force, why does he have to balance towards the good? I don't recall seeing a ton of sith in the PT. The Jedi, OTOH, numbered in the hundreds. Having such a strong force-user on the side of the jedi seemed to favor the good guys in the extreme. Anakin turning teh 3\/01 balance the good evil ratio in the force and, indeed, the galaxy. That's my take on it, anyway. If Anakin had stayed good, after all, this website may well not exist, and, I think we can all agree, that would be a simply unacceptable tragedy.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-21 07:46pm

President Sharky wrote:Well, perhaps we can take the ESB line as absolute canon over what GL says in a commentary. If it is said in the movie already, then I don't think George can really override it. Just like George can't tell us the Wampa is actually pink in ESB, because we clearly see a white Wampa and visual-canon overrides commentary-canon.

Perhaps, though who says that Yoda is infallible or not lying to Luke (like Obi-Wan did)? Lucas's quote is just his opinion, BUT, after all, he is the creator and owner of Star Wars (we had this same discussion in connection with his statement about the Stormtroopers being clones in another part of the DVD).

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Yoda or Emperor? Raw force power...

Who is more powerful?