STGOD 4 OOC Thread

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-06-19 07:13pm

Hotfoot wrote:IIRC, Monacora has now moved in, and is in the process of retaking the worlds properly, with all the long and bitter fighting that was to be expected.

No, I think I moved in on Ezekial and a few of the COG colonies (who I just happened to pay off to shout and holler to join me.) Other than that I don't think I have any other planets.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-06-19 07:14pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Yeah, well my main point is that the vampires don't have 'em. I don't know why you came to me in the first place; my only occupation zone is on Ix'agal itself.

Legitimacy. In D&D terms the Vampires are Lawful Evil. Except for Basil. He's just plain evil.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-19 07:45pm

Well, edit up. You want the loads of political debate that are going to go with this, you've got it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-19 08:49pm

Yo, Beowulf! You have a rather large strike force bearing down on your shadow fleet. What the hell are you going to do about it?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:20pm

If t alright with everyone,I will probably be upgrading a colony to a full industrial world. Their GDP is now high enough to easily afford and maintain a planetary shield.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-19 09:21pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:If t alright with everyone,I will probably be upgrading a colony to a full industrial world. Their GDP is now high enough to easily afford and maintain a planetary shield.

Err, shouldn't that process take, well, years, if not decades?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:23pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:If t alright with everyone,I will probably be upgrading a colony to a full industrial world. Their GDP is now high enough to easily afford and maintain a planetary shield.
Err, shouldn't that process take, well, years, if not decades?

Well we have full worlds, and then the colonies measure from sparsly populated(CX16) to on the verge of full planethood(CX-1)... or at least I think that would make sense for an empire that has been in the stars for a while...

And yes, they are numbered based on how long they have been in our posession.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-19 09:26pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:If t alright with everyone,I will probably be upgrading a colony to a full industrial world. Their GDP is now high enough to easily afford and maintain a planetary shield.
Err, shouldn't that process take, well, years, if not decades?
Well we have full worlds, and then the colonies measure from sparsly populated(CX16) to on the verge of full planethood(CX-1)... or at least I think that would make sense for an empire that has been in the stars for a while...

Yes, but planets get built up over time and you just can't declare that it's become a full grown core world ready for anything, like an Athena spring from Zeus's head. It just doesn't make sense and it really goes against the notional limitations on worlds if your colonies are just core worlds in all but na,e.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-19 09:29pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well we have full worlds, and then the colonies measure from sparsly populated(CX16) to on the verge of full planethood(CX-1)... or at least I think that would make sense for an empire that has been in the stars for a while...

...so you've got worlds which were on the verge of being fully industrialized...but you counted them as colonies? Wouldn't they be better counted as secondary worlds or something? It seems a bit against the spirit of the rules to do that so very quickly.

And yes, they are numbered based on how long they have been in our posession.

That's going to cause hell with the paperwork...good thing there's an alternate and simpler solution. Numbered by which year they were founded.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:30pm

I was going to do it over the course of some time, what with the applications, the building of the shield... etc ect. But it isnt like our nation was stagnant before we made first contact, and colonies grow in size. We have been n space for a while and they range in size and alfuence. Much like a territory can become a state if it meets the requirements.

*shrug* I could always conquer a world of sufficient size...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:33pm

...so you've got worlds which were on the verge of being fully industrialized...but you counted them as colonies? Wouldn't they be better counted as secondary worlds or something? It seems a bit against the spirit of the rules to do that so very quickly.

We have no designation... core worlds.... and colonies... No middle ground there....

It wont be done overnight... but maybe oover the course of a month or so in-game, to get all the paperworkd and shit done, all that crap.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-19 09:34pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I was going to do it over the course of some time, what with the applications, the building of the shield... etc ect. But it isnt like our nation was stagnant before we made first contact, and colonies grow in size. We have been n space for a while and they range in size and alfuence. Much like a territory can become a state if it meets the requirements.

*shrug* I could always conquer a world of sufficient size...

No one is saying you can't have some fairly good sized colonies, and nothing to say you can't push those colonies for expansion. It's just that things like population, infrastructure, and simple clout don't expand very quickly.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-19 09:35pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I was going to do it over the course of some time, what with the applications, the building of the shield... etc ect. But it isnt like our nation was stagnant before we made first contact, and colonies grow in size. We have been n space for a while and they range in size and alfuence. Much like a territory can become a state if it meets the requirements.

The OOB restrictions aren't merely nomenclature though. They are supposed to be so you designate between what is a colony, which supplies raw goods to your industrial centers and such, and is still rather dependant on your core worlds for support, and the core worlds, which are fully (or mostly) developed planets.

Having colony worlds masquerading as core worlds until some minor technicality makes them officially a core world is, well, against the spirit of the rules at the very least.

*shrug* I could always conquer a world of sufficient size...

Hey, go for it. Conquer away. I need to write up a GCN post soon anyway

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:36pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I was going to do it over the course of some time, what with the applications, the building of the shield... etc ect. But it isnt like our nation was stagnant before we made first contact, and colonies grow in size. We have been n space for a while and they range in size and alfuence. Much like a territory can become a state if it meets the requirements.

*shrug* I could always conquer a world of sufficient size...
No one is saying you can't have some fairly good sized colonies, and nothing to say you can't push those colonies for expansion. It's just that things like population, infrastructure, and simple clout don't expand very quickly.

WHich is why I asked. The population is there, but it now needs things like a planetary shield, needs to elect representatives to the national legistlature, write up a state constitution, file its "name" get authorizatation etc etc etc..... It will take a while, especially due to the referendum required to even begin applying.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:39pm

Having colony worlds masquerading as core worlds until some minor technicality makes them officially a core world is, well, against the spirit of the rules at the very least.

However, eventuually those colonies will be off sufficient affluence in their own right to apply for statehood. It is the way of things, this is one of the rare moments when it is possible. It is our oldest colony, it would be rather affluent in its own right by now. I could always give it a secondary world designator or something as a transitional point.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-19 09:39pm

Alyrium, I think I speak for everyone here when I say having what is a major world in all but name listed as a colony goes against the spirit of the rules as well as the letter. You've got a major world, minus some paper work from what I see here.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-19 09:42pm

What's supposed to be the cutoff for a colony? None of mine have more than 2,000 civilians in 'em, as I recall. (Smallest "colony" is Farpoint, with a population of 54, all military and intelligence personnel.)

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:43pm

Stormbringer wrote:Alyrium, I think I speak for everyone here when I say having what is a major world in all but name listed as a colony goes against the spirit of the rules as well as the letter. You've got a major world, minus some paper work from what I see here.

Alright, it will apply for statehood, and be listed as a "secondary world" as a transitory period. state... but without some of the ndustrial capacity or respect yet.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-06-19 09:44pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:We have no designation... core worlds.... and colonies... No middle ground there....

Sure there is. You count them as Core. You have primaries, secondaries, tertiaries, and so on, then you have colonies.

It wont be done overnight... but maybe oover the course of a month or so in-game, to get all the paperworkd and shit done, all that crap.

It is being done overnight, in the colonial scale. A month is hardly enough time to get the momentum to go from colony to core, and from what you are specifically stating, at the point you started this power, they had everything a core world has, except the official documentation to make it "legal". That's not cool, as it deceives people who have read your OOB, and it's a potential loophole to get more Core worlds than any other power would normally have starting off.

However, eventuually those colonies will be off sufficient affluence in their own right to apply for statehood. It is the way of things, this is one of the rare moments when it is possible. It is our oldest colony, it would be rather affluent in its own right by now. I could always give it a secondary world designator or something as a transitional point.

If you planned to make this move one month in game following your first contact, you really should have made it a core world and just noted that your people still considered it a colony.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 09:55pm

well I will give it the designator of Secondary world, make it a transitory period between colony and core.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-19 10:02pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Yeah, well my main point is that the vampires don't have 'em. I don't know why you came to me in the first place; my only occupation zone is on Ix'agal itself.
Legitimacy. In D&D terms the Vampires are Lawful Evil. Except for Basil. He's just plain evil.

I've noticed. Particularly the last bit.

But asking someone who never had the worlds in the first place isn't going to offer much legitimacy.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-06-19 11:08pm

Alyrium, you have seen Aliens, right? THAT is a colony. Anything too much bigger than that is a core world. It might not be a very highly developed core world, but still a core world. Transitional state? Um.... transition from what to what? A couple thousand people to a couple billion?
If it is large enough to count now, it would have been large enough to count before. And even still.... planetary shields? Thats really damn expensive, man. Only like 3 worlds per nation have planetary shields. Putting them on a "colony in transitional state" to change their legal status? BS. Colony means just that. Tiny, gives resources, acts as a military base. Industrial worlds are big and industrial.

Also, I owuld like to make an appeal to reason regarding neutral worlds. Just how many of these are there? As I recall, the only time that anyone was opposed in the takeover of a neutral world was during the Manasa crisis with the kung-fu battle. This is a fact of the STGOD.... no one wants to get involved in the problems of NPC nations. This presents a problem, however. It is infinitely possible to make posts of this sort: "There is a neutral world unallied with anyone with a small fleet that is small because it is an independent world. Suddenly, I bring all of my fleets in for an attack. I lose one or two ships, but my forces are so damn overwhelming that the planet surrenders after a week of fighting. I now have a new industrial world."

I didn't have a problem with this kind of thing at the beginning, but now it seems to be a panacea. Everyone wants more territory, but no one wants to get involved in a prolonged war for it, a war made certain by the now-strong alliances. And thus Planet X is introduced and conquered. Should this kind of thing still be acceptable? Or is it time to place some restrictions on the neutral worlds out there?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 11:15pm

Bugsby wrote:Alyrium, you have seen Aliens, right? THAT is a colony. Anything too much bigger than that is a core world. It might not be a very highly developed core world, but still a core world. Transitional state? Um.... transition from what to what? A couple thousand people to a couple billion?
If it is large enough to count now, it would have been large enough to count before. And even still.... planetary shields? Thats really damn expensive, man. Only like 3 worlds per nation have planetary shields. Putting them on a "colony in transitional state" to change their legal status? BS. Colony means just that. Tiny, gives resources, acts as a military base. Industrial worlds are big and industrial.

Also, I owuld like to make an appeal to reason regarding neutral worlds. Just how many of these are there? As I recall, the only time that anyone was opposed in the takeover of a neutral world was during the Manasa crisis with the kung-fu battle. This is a fact of the STGOD.... no one wants to get involved in the problems of NPC nations. This presents a problem, however. It is infinitely possible to make posts of this sort: "There is a neutral world unallied with anyone with a small fleet that is small because it is an independent world. Suddenly, I bring all of my fleets in for an attack. I lose one or two ships, but my forces are so damn overwhelming that the planet surrenders after a week of fighting. I now have a new industrial world."

I didn't have a problem with this kind of thing at the beginning, but now it seems to be a panacea. Everyone wants more territory, but no one wants to get involved in a prolonged war for it, a war made certain by the now-strong alliances. And thus Planet X is introduced and conquered. Should this kind of thing still be acceptable? Or is it time to place some restrictions on the neutral worlds out there?

the first point is moot, I have figured out somethng else to do entirely. You will note that I have not posted on it yet, and asked for concensus first. To avoid being bitched at....

The second.. No, Neutral worlds and the like are perfectly acceptable... Honestly, It would make sense that there would be a spectrum of different worlds as far as affluence and holdings go.. Hell on this planet there are nations that we as major powers(US, UK etc) could steamroll. Hell, the US could steamroll over canada...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-06-19 11:18pm

FYI, when I think coloney, I tend to think of the spectrum between plymouth circa 1828 and North American colonies circa 1750

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-06-19 11:31pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:the first point is moot, I have figured out somethng else to do entirely. You will note that I have not posted on it yet, and asked for concensus first. To avoid being bitched at....

The second.. No, Neutral worlds and the like are perfectly acceptable... Honestly, It would make sense that there would be a spectrum of different worlds as far as affluence and holdings go.. Hell on this planet there are nations that we as major powers(US, UK etc) could steamroll. Hell, the US could steamroll over canada...

If you are doing something else, then we can end that discussion right here. Good.

On the second point, you are correct. In theory. Could the US take over Canada? Yes. Easily. But the thing is, the way things are, people would CARE. The words "massive international incident" come to mind. But in this STGOD, all actions against worlds not specifically controlled by anyone else have been ignored. If no one is playing Canada in the STGOD, then no one will complain if the US invades Canada. And thats not right. I am asking the mods for either an edict against neutral planet actions or a way to make the person who does the attack responsible to someone other than himself. Because the way it stands, there are grounds for a lot of cheapness. I could post right now that I just bullied 10 "neutral worlds" into accepting client status. And if I specified that they are far away from everyone else, odds are no one would post against me. And I would get away with it. That is wrong.