Latest MGS3 Video

[Admiral Valdemar]

The guys in MGS2 definitely could hear the PSG-1; its probably not complete.

That'd be my guess. This is really a video of plot elements and graphics being shown off, not really a playable demo.

Also, I think this enemy Colonel guy is a rogue; since Khruschev called up Johnson about it and they sent in the "Ocelot unit" of Spetsnaz to clean house.

Again, I agree. Unless Ocelot was pulling an MGS2 and already going solo, which is a tad impossible at his age there given he's obviously still a soldier of the state who knows little on Metal Gear.

I also hope they don't get David Hayter to do Big Boss' voice; that would be to the retarded movie brain bug in AOTC that all clones would have the same voice, and more over be obviously self-contradictory since Solidus, Snake, and Liquid all had different voices.

I don't know quite who you're expecting to do the voice, but given it's the same guy who has done Snake in the previous Japanese games (Akio Otsuka; does Bateau in the Ghost in the Shell movies), then my money is on Hayter especially when he's a proven VA in this instance. The reason for different voices in the other two Snakes would be down to upbringing in this case. Liquid was brought up in the UK with the SAS and in the Middle-East. Solidus was a puppet for the US gov't and then turned rogue.

Here's some thoughts.

Snake and Liquid both served in the Gulf War, which means they had to join and be trained with the Green Berets and SAS respectively before insertion in Desert Storm; what's a realistic lower limit on their age, Skimmer, Vympel, etc.?

You're looking at early to mid thirties, typically. You need to be young and fit and usually serve only a couple of years in the units anyway.

The Outer Heaven insurrection occurred in 1995; the Zanzibar Land action in 1999; In the Darkness of Shadow Moses as part of MGS2, Nastasha remarks something about 2004.

Desert Storm was in 1991; Outer Heaven in 1995; Zanzibar Land in 1999; Shadow Moses in >2004; Tanker sinking in >2006; Big Shell in >2008.

Spot on.

We know from Liquid's line in MGS that he and Snake are both thirty as of then (maybe a little more): "After thirty long years, finally, the two us meet." This is a problem; 2005 - 1991 = 14; 30 - 14 = 16. Too young. So I guess Liquid was either rounding down some or Shadow Moses was as late as 2007 or later even, depending on realistic projections of a SAS operative's or Green Beret's minimum concievable age in Desert Storm.

The Snake Eater Mission was in 1964; ten years later he was "in his late fifties" and had Liquid, Snake, and Solidus made from him. Somehow to me though; I don't see him looking like he was in his 40s already. And the "Le Enfants Terribles" Project had to be in the pretty early 70s in order for Snake and Liquid to realistically participate in Desert Storm.

If you remember, the Secretary of Defense for the US said that Solid and Liquid were "just another reject from the 1970s" so the project likely did start that early to get around this.

In MGS3, it looks like Big Boss could be getting on a bit, think of it (as painful as it is) like Rambo or something where the military calls on a great soldier to come back and do one more op before retirement. It doesn't seem all that different to hauling Solid away from his home and shipping him off to the Fox Archipelago, only he didn't really have a choice (though I doubt Big Boss did either).

It's early days still, like the MGS2 videos, this is simply something you won't piece together so early on. It should be pretty clear when you play and even then there may be gaps like MGS2 which still has many integral plot points left unanswered. MGS3 could be a story that delves into the Patriots as well as the past of that bothersome machine, Metal Gear.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Wow, thats game engine footage? I'm impressed...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, if Big Boss was a heavy smoker, it might be justifiable- it would really depend on where he was raised (Liquid). For all we know, Solidus' voice was different merely because he wasn't a heavy smoker.

I like Hayter as much as the next MGS fan, but even identical twins don't have identical voices really, and Big Boss is a cigar smoker, which isn't conducive to the same level of smoking as a cigarette smoker, and for another point, you don't inhale cigar smoke.

Snake and Liquid both served in the Gulf War, which means they had to join and be trained with the Green Berets and SAS respectively before insertion in Desert Storm; what's a realistic lower limit on their age, Skimmer, Vympel, etc.?

Their age at what time? By MGS2, mid 30s at least.

I mean, what is the minimum lower limit on age of a Green Beret or SAS operative serving in Desert Storm? I mean, you take minimum enlistment age plus likely time of training to be ready for deployment...

What would that be? Eighteen or nineteen?

Big Boss definitely does not look like a rookie in that video- he's grizzled. Also, Liquid said "in his fifties", IIRC, not "in his late fifties"- could be wrong, but I can't be bothered firing up MGS2 to remember.

I have a really good memory for dialogue. Liquid (in Ocelot's body [groan]) definitely told Snake: "Our raw materials are vintage, brother. Big Boss was in his late fifties when they created his copies. But I--I live on--through this arm!"

Remember though, they are a pair of exceptional soldiers, and with the all-seeing eyes of the Patriots or whatever on them, who knows how early they could've gotten into respective spec forces?

Cheating the ages? Maybe by a year or so. But keep in mind, I'm seventeen--eighteen in four months. I'm surrounded by people who are just around minimum enlistment age, and I can tell you its just not realistic to cheat ages significantly now. Maybe for a handful.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You're looking at early to mid thirties, typically. You need to be young and fit and usually serve only a couple of years in the units anyway.

Not for Liquid/Solid as of their later operations, I mean when they were in SAS/Green Berets. Saying the minimum age for a SAS operative or Green Beret IS early-to-mid-thirties?

The upper limit I can get using the "after thirty long years" quote and the 2004 mention in Nastasha's book is 2005 - 1991 = 14; 30 - 14 = 16. That's a little young to be an SAS operative. Now maybe if it really was 2004 in Shadow Moses (wierd to refer to the present year like that, but she's a silly Russian anyway ). That gives you 17. Still pretty damn low.

If those quotes are accepted, Shadow Moses is 2004 and the Tanker was in 2006, and Big Shell in 2008. Incidentally, for Snake and Liquid to be 30 in MGS, they would've been born in 1974.

That is 10 years after Snake Eater (1964) and makes Big Boss in his "late forties" in this game.

Big Boss might've served in World War II! He would've been in his late twenties in '44, and in '41 that much younger. He probably served in Korea too.

In MGS3, it looks like Big Boss could be getting on a bit, think of it (as painful as it is) like Rambo or something where the military calls on a great soldier to come back and do one more op before retirement. It doesn't seem all that different to hauling Solid away from his home and shipping him off to the Fox Archipelago, only he didn't really have a choice (though I doubt Big Boss did either).

Well Big Boss doesn't look all that much older than Snake in MGS2 (who is probably, if the dialogue can be relied upon, 34 years old).

Also, Big Boss acquired a lot of his infamy as a mercenary (with specific references to Vietnam, which has yet to get really hot in '64), whereas right now he's still a government soldier.

Still, by the early '70's he must be in his "late fifties" and he'll be wounded in combat and brought in for Liquid, Solid, and Solidus to be made from his cells.

An odd thought, though, Big Boss was in his late seventies/early eighties when he faced down Snake the last time in Zanzibar Land?!

[Vympel]

I like Hayter as much as the next MGS fan, but even identical twins don't have identical voices really, and Big Boss is a cigar smoker, which isn't conducive to the same level of smoking as a cigarette smoker, and for another point, you don't inhale cigar smoke.

Good point. Still, I can let it slide. It wouldn't be Snake (and it is, in a way) without David Hayter. Maybe they'll spoil us and he'll speak differently ...

I mean, what is the minimum lower limit on age of a Green Beret or SAS operative serving in Desert Storm? I mean, you take minimum enlistment age plus likely time of training to be ready for deployment...

What would that be? Eighteen or nineteen?

To be honest, I've never heard of an 18/19 year old Green Beret. They tend to be several years older than that at least (mid-20s minimum, with the good troops being in their 30s) with previous experience in other units. Only Spetsnaz recruits teenage conscripts straight into their ranks.

This is off the top of my head (except for the Spetsnaz thing, which of course I know by rote )

I have a really good memory for dialogue. Liquid (in Ocelot's body [groan]) definitely told Snake: "Our raw materials are vintage, brother. Big Boss was in his late fifties when they created his copies. But I--I live on--through this arm!"

Well, late 50s can be anything from 56-59- early 40s in 1964? He look's Snake's age in MGS/MGS2, to be honest. We can always just assume that Liquid is quite simply wrong.

Cheating the ages? Maybe by a year or so. But keep in mind, I'm seventeen--eighteen in four months. I'm surrounded by people who are just around minimum enlistment age, and I can tell you its just not realistic to cheat ages significantly now. Maybe for a handful.

Not cheating of their own volition, but they could've gotten fast-tracked to spec ops as a Patriot imperative. Irregularities are not out of the question.

IMO, this is all Hideo Kojima's fault.

Its too bad that the guy isn't Solidus, but of course, there's not a chance of that, as Solidus didn't lose his eye until MGS2.

I do like this retro stuff though- I think we should get a remake of the original Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well to me the hardest bits to swollow are that Liquid and Snake are exactly 30 in MGS, because that taken together with Nastasha not being a clairvoyant makes them 17 in Desert Storm ( ).

And then there's Big Boss being ten years younger looking than he should in Snake Eater.

EDIT: Hey Vyp, don't quote me as yourself.

[Vympel]

Bloody quote tags.

Just watched the vid again- I take it back, Snake (no prefix I assume)/ Big Boss looks in his 40s- there's a certain hardness to his face that's not present on Solid Snake or Liquids ... not as old as Solidus though. So that would be 40s. (I assume Solidus was in his 50s).

Ooh, and Big Boss may have fought in WW2 and almost definitely fought in Korea and perhaps even Vietnam- that'd be pretty sweet. He did become enamored of war, after all- if you were crazy enough to enjoy slaughter, I assume it'd take more than just say Cold War "sneaking missions" (silly bloody term, can't believe they had that in the subtitles).

I do realy think it's time they put in the effort and gave each enemy individual faces- wearing balaclavas all the time and other head gear is just plain silly.

[Admiral Valdemar]

If you look at the images of Big Boss when he is finally killed by Solid, he does look a withered man in ways, certainly aged, but still able to hold his own. Though the fact a carbon copy of his younger self killed him isn't difficult to grasp given it's Big Boss again with more up-to-date training.

Given the fact that Liquid and Solid were born from the same genetic material the greatest soldier in the world was made from, I'm sure that would aid in them dismissing tradition and getting into spec-ops like the SAS or Green Berets earlier than normal, though maybe not at 17, though they may have been adequate soldiers by then if they were gov't projects from the start (and according to the Sec. of Defense and Liquid, they were).

I do hope they make a remake of the first two games which would be a brilliant step before finishing this in MGS4 which is rumoured to tie everything up. Remaking MGS was a bit odd given it was an already perfect game, save Harry Gregson-Williams redoing the music to a full orchestra and the improved graphics, it wasn't really in need of a remake (though I will get it eventually, once I finish the superb Resident Evil remake which WAS needed, no bad acting this time).

[Vendetta]

Wow, thats game engine footage? I'm impressed...

Impressed? I'm in open fucking denial. Playstation 2's are not meant to do shit like that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just watched the vid again- I take it back, Snake (no prefix I assume)/ Big Boss looks in his 40s- there's a certain hardness to his face that's not present on Solid Snake or Liquids ... not as old as Solidus though. So that would be 40s. (I assume Solidus was in his 50s).

The "Les Enfants Terribles" project started in the 1970's. Solidus Snake is undeniably the same age as Solid Snake and Liquid Snake. Solidus was the one of the other six octuplets which wasn't aborted and Liquid was unaware of.

Why he aged so much faster is anyone's guess. He could've intentionally increased his aging via medical means in the advanced-alternate-world of biotech in MGS in order to be a more viable politician as he seemed to have gotten in bed with the Patriots pretty early and thus been heading on a different road than Solid and Liquid.

Maybe this is what Liquid meant by "our raw materials are vintage." Maybe Liquid and Solid overcame some of the limitations and flaws of the program, but Solidus did not and thus aged prematurely.

Nevertheless, they are all part of the same project and thus all the same age.

Ooh, and Big Boss may have fought in WW2 and almost definitely fought in Korea and perhaps even Vietnam- that'd be pretty sweet. He did become enamored of war, after all- if you were crazy enough to enjoy slaughter, I assume it'd take more than just say Cold War "sneaking missions" (silly bloody term, can't believe they had that in the subtitles).

Yeah. MGS did better in that. Campbell said, "..as usual, this is a one-man infiltration." Which is all-together more professional.

I do realy think it's time they put in the effort and gave each enemy individual faces- wearing balaclavas all the time and other head gear is just plain silly.

I haven't seen the new guards close-enough. Noticed that the "Ocelot unit" wore 'em, except for Shalashaska, of course. I agree. One can understand in many of the MGS environs though; outside in Alaska I'd want headgear and stuff covering my face. The nuclear warhead storage building is another obvious one, and the armored guards which ambush you another obvious. But standard patrols? Please. The raiding party on the Tanker is again understandable, but all the Gurlukovich men on the Big Shell? Silly.

EDIT:

So what's Big Boss' rifle? Is that a standard M16A1 feeding from a 20-rd box? Looks too big to be an early CAR-15, which wasn't introduced until 1965 anyway.

His pistol? A modified M1911A1 with a suppressor? I didn't know such a thing was ever made.

That tripod-mounted MG looked more like a DShKM more than a PK to me, Vymp (especially the sight).

The wierd hover-thingy pilots have 7.62 mm Skorpions.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The "Les Enfants Terribles" project started in the 1970's. Solidus Snake is undeniably the same age as Solid Snake and Liquid Snake. Solidus was the one of the other six octuplets which wasn't aborted and Liquid was unaware of.

Why he aged so much faster is anyone's guess. He could've intentionally increased his aging via medical means in the advanced-alternate-world of biotech in MGS in order to be a more viable politician as he seemed to have gotten in bed with the Patriots pretty early and thus been heading on a different road than Solid and Liquid.

Maybe this is what Liquid meant by "our raw materials are vintage." Maybe Liquid and Solid overcame some of the limitations and flaws of the program, but Solidus did not and thus aged prematurely.

Nevertheless, they are all part of the same project and thus all the same age.

I'd have to say it's likely premature ageing due to the process. Such defects may not have been corrected even this many years after Dolly. I don't see Solidus inflicting it himself just to get cosy with the Patriots, but we don't have much to go on his past anyway.

Yeah. MGS did better in that. Campbell said, "..as usual, this is a one-man infiltration." Which is all-together more professional.

Guess "sneaking mission" is a pet term like Wild Weasel.

I haven't seen the new guards close-enough. Noticed that the "Ocelot unit" wore 'em, except for Shalashaska, of course. I agree. One can understand in many of the MGS environs though; outside in Alaska I'd want headgear and stuff covering my face. The nuclear warhead storage building is another obvious one, and the armored guards which ambush you another obvious. But standard patrols? Please. The raiding party on the Tanker is again understandable, but all the Gurlukovich men on the Big Shell? Silly.

Yes, it is kind've silly. Maybe that'll change, it seems more detail is about now and a different environment exists. Incidentally, there's a competition online where you can design the camouflage pattern Snake will wear. A bit like the dog tag competition last time.

EDIT:

So what's Big Boss' rifle? Is that a standard M16A1 feeding from a 20-rd box? Looks too big to be an early CAR-15, which wasn't introduced until 1965 anyway.

I assume an M16A1, it is the era for them, I just hope you don't have to put up with the crap conditions which may clog the thing up.

His pistol? A modified M1911A1 with a suppressor? I didn't know such a thing was ever made.

I believe they did exist, but only really used by SOCOM like certain USP Tactical models today. The .45 would be better suppressed than other calibres as it's subsonic.

The wierd hover-thingy pilots have 7.62 mm Skorpions.

I'd agree with that, they had the characteristic folding stock.

Impressed? I'm in open fucking denial. Playstation 2's are not meant to do shit like that.

It does seem they have uprated the MGS2 engine, perhaps experience with MGS: TTS has also helped. It seems more detailed and smoother than MGS2 even and that's saying something as I thought MGS2 was pushing it even back then when the PS2 was still young.

[Vendetta]

Twin Snakes was converted by Silicon Knights though. And I'm not sure how much Gamecube programming experience helps with the PS2, you can't make stuff like this happen on a PS2 without really heavy optimising to it's parallel architecture.

I expect this is more like the result of three years with a Performance Analyser and a programming staff entirely comprised of ninjas.

[Vympel]

So what's Big Boss' rifle? Is that a standard M16A1 feeding from a 20-rd box? Looks too big to be an early CAR-15, which wasn't introduced until 1965 anyway.

Either an XM16E1 (that would be its appropriate 1964 name, US Army type classified it as M16A1 in 1867) or standard M16 (as adopted for service by the USAF in 1964).

His pistol? A modified M1911A1 with a suppressor? I didn't know such a thing was ever made.

There was a scene with a suppressor? I only remember it without. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a suppressor.

That tripod-mounted MG looked more like a DShKM more than a PK to me, Vymp (especially the sight).

Hm? No- the tripod mounted MG is a DShKM (see my running commentary post), Big Boss is firing a PK later, and one of the Ocelot troops sprays wildly with his own PK as Big Boss kills him.

The wierd hover-thingy pilots have 7.62 mm Skorpions.

Yup, Czech SMG.

[Illuminatus Primus]

His pistol? A modified M1911A1 with a suppressor? I didn't know such a thing was ever made.

There was a scene with a suppressor? I only remember it without. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a suppressor.

When he first lands and gets up and says "Commencing Operation Snake Eater"; his M1911A1 has a suppressor.

Big Boss is firing a PK later,

When?

EDIT: Wait, I see it; right after he climbs out of the pillbox.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I just noticed something when watching again, the Metal Gear unit actually gets a nuke off it seems. I wonder, if that's in the story, what implications it would have and what the target was if not a test run.

It seems the rogue guy isn't a general either, but a colonel.

[Vendetta]

Been reading up on some of the gameplay mechanics on offer.

Interesting notes:

You can hunt for food rather than just finding random rations spread around. You can either hunt by tranquilising things, which means they last longer, and can be released later, if you're not hungry (or if you've got something like a poisonous snake in your inventory, as an impromptu weapon), or by killing them, which means they go off quicker, meaning that you could become ill (and either tough it out or force Snake to throw up), but you can carry more.

You have a visibility meter, like Garrett's light gem, that shows how much of a sore thumb you stick out like. In order to keep it low you can change your camoflage and face paints to suit your environment.

[Vendetta]

His pistol? A modified M1911A1 with a suppressor? I didn't know such a thing was ever made.

There was a scene with a suppressor? I only remember it without. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a suppressor.

When he first lands and gets up and says "Commencing Operation Snake Eater"; his M1911A1 has a suppressor.
.

He also carries a Smith & Wesson Model 39 with suppressor (Mk 22 Mod 0). That's the gun he's holding in that scene. (the recessed area under the barrel end is quite short relative to the rest of the barrel, it's longer on the M1911)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ah. So that's it?

So you get an M1911A1 AND a suppressed pistol? Double the fun.

[Vympel]

It'll be interesting to see if they have the good-sense to deal with the weapons introduction issues in MGS3. Anyway, the weapons we've seen Big Boss use so far:

- Colt M1911A1
- S&W M39 (silenced)
- SVD: entered service 1867, three years after Operation Snake Eater
- PK: entered service 1964. Codec commentary should probably mention its a new weapon
- RPG-7V: entered service 1961. Codec commentary should probably mention its a new weapon
- XM16E1 (based on assumption of US Army rather than USAF ties of FOXHOUND)
- DShKM
- ZU-23

[Temjin]

So, since this is the 60's and the guns do not have personal identifiers, does this mean that we can pick up enemy's gun after we kill him?

[DPDarkPrimus]

You have a visibility meter, like Garrett's light gem, that shows how much of a sore thumb you stick out like. In order to keep it low you can change your camoflage and face paints to suit your environment.

I remember seeing a screenshot comparing several different camo suits in an environment. It was a grassy plain, and the "Fire" pattern (blue and orange camo) registered as 104% visible.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So, since this is the 60's and the guns do not have personal identifiers, does this mean that we can pick up enemy's gun after we kill him?

I hope so.

I'm looking forward to using the classic AKM or AKMS or PM.

MGS has incorporated the length-of-the-gun considerations in first-person-aiming. Aiming all the full-length rifles when you're indoors could be pretty dicey. This is before all the micro-calibres really take off and thus all the carbine versions thereof.

[Vympel]

What would be really cool would be AKMS. With an extend/ retract stock option. But I know that won't happen. *sigh*

[Vendetta]

- SVD: entered service 1867, three years after Operation Snake Eater

I assume you mean 1967. The final descision to adopt the SVD design over its competitors was made in 1963 though, so it's possible that Thunderbolt has access to some before they've entered service. He's connected enough to know about Metal Gear, after all.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's hardly as bad as the 6-year early Mi-24 HIND A.