US Marine on BBC talks about killing Iraqi civilians

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
By the way yourself, common sense should tell you (and them) that firing automatic weapons when there are foreign troops in the area on a war footing is not the best of plans.

Fisrt, you assume that they knew there were troops in the area and as Vampyl pointed out, this is their custom. America invaded their nation, and you expect them to change their way of life?They have to live there. No wonder few people like the US over there

[Stuart Mackey]

I think that's answer is pretty obvious, don't you? Ground troops can't be everywhere aircraft are.

Well in that case when in doubt, make a speciel effort and dont rely on air recon which is obviously innacurate given the circumstances, as you neatly point out below. That way you dont kill civillians.

Ya know it's pretty hard to tell the difference between a wedding and a hostile ground force when you are flying at high speeds and both tend to fire upwards where aircraft are known to operate in a country where the enemy dresses as civilians

So fly higher. As air-recon is innacurate for a mission use ground troops for the job. Either way, by killing civvies at a wedding, you piss of the population, I shall leave it to you to work out why that is a bad thing.

[Montcalm]

I think some American fighter pilots are a little bit trigger happy,a few years after the first Gulf war two F-15 shot down two UN helicopters thinking they were two Iraqi Hinds,and in Afghanistan the F-16 that killed 4 Canadian soldiers which later we were told the pilot were given some kind of drugs,and this year shooting at a wedding,did they really thought they were being shot at or was it another case of loaded pilots?

[Stormbringer]

Ever hear of recon? Bride and groom, two sets of family, bunch of little kids and a wedding singer, all in one place probably means a wedding..might not be distigishable from up in the air, but a guy on the ground with binoculars might have the wit to work it out.

Was that confirmed? Because last I heard the ground reports from the AC-130 strikes was saying that it sure as hell wasn't a wedding. Unless Iraq has gay marriage in addition to weapons laws that call RPGs fireworks.

[Stormbringer]

That soldier had better not run for office 30 years from now; he'll be branded a traitor for saying those things.

Only if he runs on the Democratic ticket.

And if his only real selling point is: I'm a war hero damnit!

[Aaron]

I think some American fighter pilots are a little bit trigger happy,a few years after the first Gulf war two F-15 shot down two UN helicopters thinking they were two Iraqi Hinds,and in Afghanistan the F-16 that killed 4 Canadian soldiers which later we were told the pilot were given some kind of drugs,and this year shooting at a wedding,did they really thought they were being shot at or was it another case of loaded pilots?

Thats the way of the US military, they've always shot first and asked questions later. Those pilots in Afghanistan that killed our boys were taking "uppers" a common practice on long missions, I'll leave it for people with more experiance with them to determine whether they compromised their judgement.

In this case, I think it was another case of "oh look, ground fire, let's get em". That's if it was in fact a wedding, I keep hearing conflicting reports on the subject. But I think regardless, the USA needs to confirm their targets before engaging, it's standard practice for every other NATO military.

[Stormbringer]

Thats the way of the US military, they've always shot first and asked questions later. Those pilots in Afghanistan that killed our boys were taking "uppers" a common practice on long missions, I'll leave it for people with more experiance with them to determine whether they compromised their judgement.

It's been a long time practice so I can't imagine the evidence is too strong. A lot of the arguements are subjective as hell.

In this case, I think it was another case of "oh look, ground fire, let's get em". That's if it was in fact a wedding, I keep hearing conflicting reports on the subject. But I think regardless, the USA needs to confirm their targets before engaging, it's standard practice for every other NATO military.

I think the US does try to confirm it as far as we can. But you'll note that US pilots have been doing a lot more of the higher risk work and that doesn't tend to lead to a check and see attitude.

[Aaron]

I think the US does try to confirm it as far as we can. But you'll note that US pilots have been doing a lot more of the higher risk work and that doesn't tend to lead to a check and see attitude.

Agreed. Unfortunatly no matter how hard you try there will always be gaffs like this in war. All you can do is try and do your best to reduce the number. And we still don't have any concrete proof that this was a wedding or a terrorist safe house.

[Stuart Mackey]

Ever hear of recon? Bride and groom, two sets of family, bunch of little kids and a wedding singer, all in one place probably means a wedding..might not be distigishable from up in the air, but a guy on the ground with binoculars might have the wit to work it out.

Was that confirmed? Because last I heard the ground reports from the AC-130 strikes was saying that it sure as hell wasn't a wedding. Unless Iraq has gay marriage in addition to weapons laws that call RPGs fireworks.

Or those pilots could not judge an event that was outside their cultural experience? and how could they judge it accrualy while moving at how many knots at how many hundred feet in the air?

[Stormbringer]

Ever hear of recon? Bride and groom, two sets of family, bunch of little kids and a wedding singer, all in one place probably means a wedding..might not be distigishable from up in the air, but a guy on the ground with binoculars might have the wit to work it out.

Was that confirmed? Because last I heard the ground reports from the AC-130 strikes was saying that it sure as hell wasn't a wedding. Unless Iraq has gay marriage in addition to weapons laws that call RPGs fireworks.

Or those pilots could not judge an event that was outside their cultural experience? and how could they judge it accrualy while moving at how many knots at how many hundred feet in the air?

Nice of you to dodge the question there.

I'm asking you was it confirmed that this was a civilian wedding? Because last I heard on the news, they hadn't found a single woman and the place had things like AKs, RPG, homemade bombs, and the like all over the place. If that's is a wedding I'm the goddamn Easter Bunny. So while I'm not about to place my absolute faith in CNN and MSNBC, I do trust them more than nothing at all.

Besides, the AC-130 Spectre gunship strikes to which this apparently refers were not a case of fighter pilots dropping on a target but rather strikes called in by ground based forces, Marines patrolling the place as I recall. A far cry from your cherished image of the cowboy-American fighter jock dosed to the gills on speed until he's ready to try and kill anything that moves. These were precision strikes and the only question is what they hit, not that this was a loose cannon act.

[Son of the Suns]

That soldier had better not run for office 30 years from now; he'll be branded a traitor for saying those things.

Only if he runs on the Democratic ticket.

And if his only real selling point is: I'm a war hero damnit!

Actually the only thing he's managed to get across is that he's not Bush.

[Howedar]

Ever hear of recon? Bride and groom, two sets of family, bunch of little kids and a wedding singer, all in one place probably means a wedding..might not be distigishable from up in the air, but a guy on the ground with binoculars might have the wit to work it out.

Was that confirmed? Because last I heard the ground reports from the AC-130 strikes was saying that it sure as hell wasn't a wedding. Unless Iraq has gay marriage in addition to weapons laws that call RPGs fireworks.

Or those pilots could not judge an event that was outside their cultural experience? and how could they judge it accrualy while moving at how many knots at how many hundred feet in the air?

What the fuck? Do bullets give a shit about what culture fired them?

[Stuart Mackey]

Was that confirmed? Because last I heard the ground reports from the AC-130 strikes was saying that it sure as hell wasn't a wedding. Unless Iraq has gay marriage in addition to weapons laws that call RPGs fireworks.

Or those pilots could not judge an event that was outside their cultural experience? and how could they judge it accrualy while moving at how many knots at how many hundred feet in the air?

Nice of you to dodge the question there.

I'm asking you was it confirmed that this was a civilian wedding? Because last I heard on the news, they hadn't found a single woman and the place had things like AKs, RPG, homemade bombs, and the like all over the place. If that's is a wedding I'm the goddamn Easter Bunny. So while I'm not about to place my absolute faith in CNN and MSNBC, I do trust them more than nothing at all.

From MSNBC

The artifacts of celebration
But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car — decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video — which runs for several hours.

They have the wedding video, identified the remains with said video
oh and this

The organist, before and after
Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud — his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt as he wore when he performed

Besides, the AC-130 Spectre gunship strikes to which this apparently refers were not a case of fighter pilots dropping on a target but rather strikes called in by ground based forces, Marines patrolling the place as I recall.

Well those marines need to ge there eyes checked as there are eywhitness reports of children being carted off to graves.

A far cry from your cherished image of the cowboy-American fighter jock dosed to the gills on speed until he's ready to try and kill anything that moves.

Oi, dont put words in my mouth I never once said that.

These were precision strikes and the only question is what they hit, not that this was a loose cannon act.

link

hmm precision strikes based on faulty information are still a fuck up. What ever way you look at it. Wedding or not, children and innocent civillians were killed, and for what, eh?.

[Bill Door]

snip
By the way yourself, common sense should tell you (and them) that firing automatic weapons when there are foreign troops in the area on a war footing is not the best of plans.

Fisrt, you assume that they knew there were troops in the area and as Vampyl pointed out, this is their custom. America invaded their nation, and you expect them to change their way of life?They have to live there. No wonder few people like the US over there

So if the customs of the region meant everyone carred firearms everywhere, this would be alright? Despite the fact that there are twitchy troops on the ground due to terror attacks?
If local customs dictated running vehicle check points it would be alright? Can't get them to stop that despite it being risky for the troops on the ground. After all its a local custom!
it seems you implying this, Stuart.

Local customs should be taken into account where feasible without undue risk to our soldiers.

This having been said, the US forces do not appear to be too successful in minimising casulties amongst non-combatants and friendly forces

[Bill Door]

<snip>

The articles make it plain that the response was overkill by most commonly accepted meanings of the word.

This does not change the fact that firing an automatic weapon into the air in a country with occuping troops in it is not a good idea.

[Stormbringer]

From MSNBC

The artifacts of celebration
But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car — decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video — which runs for several hours.

They have the wedding video, identified the remains with said video
oh and this

The organist, before and after
Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud — his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt as he wore when he performed

That's not the same incident to which has been referred, unless you're assuming a different incident than what was mentioned from the start.

However if that's true it's rather chilling. At best it sounds like innocent people were caught in the crossfire, at worst we have a repeat of AK-47 fireworks incident from Afghanistan. Either way it's not a good place to be in.

And Stuart, before you repeat the stuff about respecting tradition try to remember that automatic weapons fire of joy and autmatic weapons fire of righteous fury are no different if you're caught downrange. At the very least doing it when some one's got choppers in the area is a bad idea.

Besides, the AC-130 Spectre gunship strikes to which this apparently refers were not a case of fighter pilots dropping on a target but rather strikes called in by ground based forces, Marines patrolling the place as I recall.

Well those marines need to ge there eyes checked as there are eywhitness reports of children being carted off to graves.

Given that this wasn't the same incident, and there's no mention of the men on the ground, I don't think they were involved.

Exactly what the intel was and whether some one did fire on those US choppers isn't said. It sounds like there was more to this whole business than just the wedding party.

A far cry from your cherished image of the cowboy-American fighter jock dosed to the gills on speed until he's ready to try and kill anything that moves.

Oi, dont put words in my mouth I never once said that.

Fun, you've been harping on that very issue all thread.

These were precision strikes and the only question is what they hit, not that this was a loose cannon act.

link

hmm precision strikes based on faulty information are still a fuck up. What ever way you look at it. Wedding or not, children and innocent civillians were killed, and for what, eh?.

Yes, they are still a fuck up and having innocent lives lost is never a good thing. However the fact that the enemy is hidin behind them makes things like this inevitable.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
By the way yourself, common sense should tell you (and them) that firing automatic weapons when there are foreign troops in the area on a war footing is not the best of plans.

Fisrt, you assume that they knew there were troops in the area and as Vampyl pointed out, this is their custom. America invaded their nation, and you expect them to change their way of life?They have to live there. No wonder few people like the US over there

So if the customs of the region meant everyone carred firearms everywhere, this would be alright? Despite the fact that there are twitchy troops on the ground due to terror attacks?
If local customs dictated running vehicle check points it would be alright? Can't get them to stop that despite it being risky for the troops on the ground. After all its a local custom!
it seems you implying this, Stuart.

Seems to me that you are building a strawman I am talking about firing guns in the air at a wedding, nothing more.

Local customs should be taken into account where feasible without undue risk to our soldiers.

Well in that case, what are you going to do to enfoces this? ban firearms?

This having been said, the US forces do not appear to be too successful in minimising casulties amongst non-combatants and friendly forces

For better or for worse a lot of this is fighting in built up areas, you are going to get accidents, and I dont think that US soldiers go out to deliberatly shoot civvies.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

That's not the same incident to which has been referred, unless you're assuming a different incident than what was mentioned from the start.

??I am talking about the wedding incident....

However if that's true it's rather chilling. At best it sounds like innocent people were caught in the crossfire, at worst we have a repeat of AK-47 fireworks incident from Afghanistan. Either way it's not a good place to be in.

Well it has been known to happen.

And Stuart, before you repeat the stuff about respecting tradition try to remember that automatic weapons fire of joy and autmatic weapons fire of righteous fury are no different if you're caught downrange. At the very least doing it when some one's got choppers in the area is a bad idea.

With all due respect, I doubt that the US announce their movements and plans in the local paper to ensure public saftey

Besides, the AC-130 Spectre gunship strikes to which this apparently refers were not a case of fighter pilots dropping on a target but rather strikes called in by ground based forces, Marines patrolling the place as I recall.

Well those marines need to ge there eyes checked as there are eywhitness reports of children being carted off to graves.

Given that this wasn't the same incident, and there's no mention of the men on the ground, I don't think they were involved.

As I mentioned above, I am talking about the people who were killed at the wedding.

Exactly what the intel was and whether some one did fire on those US choppers isn't said. It sounds like there was more to this whole business than just the wedding party.

True enough and there is always more to it in a warzone

A far cry from your cherished image of the cowboy-American fighter jock dosed to the gills on speed until he's ready to try and kill anything that moves.

Oi, dont put words in my mouth I never once said that.

Fun, you've been harping on that very issue all thread.

Point out where in this thread I have once mention US pilots being on LSD or whatever and wanting to kill everthing in sight..or apoligise for lying.

snip

Yes, they are still a fuck up and having innocent lives lost is never a good thing. However the fact that the enemy is hidin behind them makes things like this inevitable.

What enemy?, not that it doesnot happen over there.

[Bill Door]

[So if the customs of the region meant everyone carred firearms everywhere, this would be alright? Despite the fact that there are twitchy troops on the ground due to terror attacks?
If local customs dictated running vehicle check points it would be alright? Can't get them to stop that despite it being risky for the troops on the ground. After all its a local custom!
it seems you implying this, Stuart.

Seems to me that you are building a strawman I am talking about firing guns in the air at a wedding, nothing more.

I'm just trying to find out what other local customs you'd find appropriate in a area with occupying troops, as you obviouly belive that firing guns in the air is an appropriate one.

Local customs should be taken into account where feasible without undue risk to our soldiers.

Well in that case, what are you going to do to enfoces this? ban firearms? [/quote]Make it very damn clear that anyone in civilian clothes carrying firearms will be considered a threat and will be dealt with appropriatly.

This having been said, the US forces do not appear to be too successful in minimising casulties amongst non-combatants and friendly forces

For better or for worse a lot of this is fighting in built up areas, you are going to get accidents, and I dont think that US soldiers go out to deliberatly shoot civvies.[/quote]As the audio clip in the original post points out the ground troops aren't going out to kill everyone in sight. They just seem to have a greater rate of occurance of these w.r.t. time with these incidents.

[Stormbringer]

??I am talking about the wedding incident....

Which is difficult to tell because "it was an islamic celebration" is something of a standard response to every strike, from what I can tell from the news, and combined with an earlier mention of the AC-130 strikes of about the same time I simply made a mistake and assumed it was different incident.

Well it has been known to happen.

What exactly?

With all due respect, I doubt that the US announce their movements and plans in the local paper to ensure public saftey

No, they don't. But then again if you're having your AK-47s while their are aircraft in the vicinity you're obviously from the shallow end of the gene pool. Autmatic weapons aren't such that you can really direct fire at something unseen, and two US helicopters reported taking fire. If this really was wedding party that those choppers took fire from I can only say they were acting with reckless disregard.

As I mentioned above, I am talking about the people who were killed at the wedding.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

True enough and there is always more to it in a warzone

Yeah, there certainly is. One reason I wish these stories didn't get dropped so fast.

Point out where in this thread I have once mention US pilots being on LSD or whatever and wanting to kill everthing in sight..or apoligise for lying.

Sorry, Kendall actually brough up the amphetamines issue. But I still wonder why it is you think that the US pilots have been unwarrrantably reckless?

What enemy?, not that it doesnot happen over there.

The militants that are literally undistiguisable from ordinary citizens.