Iran: British vessels confiscated

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-06-21 09:15am

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast ... ran.ships/

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-06-21 09:19am

Wierd. If true- spies?

Exmoor Cat · Post by **Exmoor Cat** » 2004-06-21 09:28am

doubtful - that particular stretch of water is infamous for being ill-defined. For starters, they've only just remapped the border area to line up with the GPS systems and standardise the map grid co-ordinates. Also the waterway itself was a key issue for the Iraq-Iran war.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2004-06-21 10:15am

Jesus...didn't they try to warn the boats or anything?

It seems pretty excessive to just arrest them outright.

P.S.
On a related note...does anyone has the list of parties in the UN Convention On The Law Of The Sea? Is Iran a party?

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-06-21 10:39am

they are also "interrogating" the captives. This could get interesting, especially if Big Tony decides to liberate the captives a la SAS.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-21 12:12pm

USS Pueblo.

I wonder how far this will progress? Especially with the official handover date in Iraq rapidly approaching that one of the other "axis" of evil is sitting next door and a hell of a lot of US and British troops sitting there.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-21 12:38pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:they are also "interrogating" the captives. This could get interesting, especially if Big Tony decides to liberate the captives a la SAS.

oh, come on. the iranians will keep them a couple of days (in order to keep up their image of authority) and then release them. there´s nothing that iran could win by keeping them captive.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-06-21 12:45pm

salm wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:they are also "interrogating" the captives. This could get interesting, especially if Big Tony decides to liberate the captives a la SAS.
oh, come on. the iranians will keep them a couple of days (in order to keep up their image of authority) and then release them. there´s nothing that iran could win by keeping them captive.

i really hope so. the last thing we all need right now are armed hostilities with Iran.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2004-06-21 01:11pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
salm wrote: oh, come on. the iranians will keep them a couple of days (in order to keep up their image of authority) and then release them. there´s nothing that iran could win by keeping them captive.
i really hope so. the last thing we all need right now are armed hostilities with Iran.

And besides, as appealing as the thought of a SAS team breaking into a holding facility and taking off with the prisoners is, such operations never have a very high chance of success and require plenty of intelligence gathering and spy games beforehand (if only to find out where exactly the prisoners are being held, not to say such minor things as enemy forces in the area, viable methods of insertion/extraction, etc.).

It's really a last resort. In other words, you've got it right. Nobody has anything to gain by starting a shooting war with Iran, and there's all too much to loose.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2004-06-21 01:41pm

I'd imagine Iran is doing this to make a point- I mean, plenty of ships have probably crossed the imaginary line in the Shatt-Al-Arab in the months before now, so why arrest these ones at this point?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-06-21 02:26pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:i really hope so. the last thing we all need right now are armed hostilities with Iran.

Shit, all you have to do to get hostages back from Iran is slip the government some Stinger missiles under the table. They'll hand them over toot-sweet.

Still, I hope the slap Iran around for this. It sounds like they went too far this time.

What strikes me as funny is that on the BBC homepage, the football game between England and Croatia is bigger news than Iran capturing three Royal Navy vessels.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-21 03:04pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: Still, I hope the slap Iran around for this. It sounds like they went too far this time.

why? if i understood the article correctly they illegally entered iranian territorry with military ships. imagine what the brits would do with iranian ships entering british waters.

What strikes me as funny is that on the BBC homepage, the football game between England and Croatia is bigger news than Iran capturing three Royal Navy vessels.

könig fußball regiert die welt!!!

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2004-06-21 03:15pm

salm wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote: Still, I hope the slap Iran around for this. It sounds like they went too far this time.
why? if i understood the article correctly they illegally entered iranian territorry with military ships. imagine what the brits would do with iranian ships entering british waters.

They would have asked them to leave, unless they openly displayed hostile intent. Non-trade government ships are covered by immunity under the UN Convention On The Law Of The Sea. IIRC, the only requirement for warships is that they display their colors and that their host government notifies the interested government. I'm not even sure if the notification is necessary during traverse, or if they are covered simply by the law of peaceful passage (would make sense, though. You don't want armed warships frolicking freely around your shores

)

In any case, arresting a government ship is only justified in extreme cases under all civilized standards of international law. Certainly, a few patrol boats don't pose a dire and serious threat to the terrotorial integrity or stability of Iran, now do they?

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-21 03:22pm

PeZook wrote: They would have asked them to leave, unless they openly displayed hostile intent. Non-trade government ships are covered by immunity under the UN Convention On The Law Of The Sea. IIRC, the only requirement for warships is that they display their colors and that their host government notifies the interested government. I'm not even sure if the notification is necessary during traverse, or if they are covered simply by the law of peaceful passage (would make sense, though. You don't want armed warships frolicking freely around your shores )

In any case, arresting a government ship is only justified in extreme cases under all civilized standards of international law. Certainly, a few patrol boats don't pose a dire and serious threat to the terrotorial integrity or stability of Iran, now do they?

yeah, if that´s the case the the armslapping would be justified indeed.

Dirty Harry · Post by **Dirty Harry** » 2004-06-21 06:10pm

An Ex-royal navy friend of mine tells me they where just coastal patrol boats.

Gil Hamilton wrote: What strikes me as funny is that on the BBC homepage, the football game between England and Croatia is bigger news than Iran capturing three Royal Navy vessels.

Fucking BBC pandering to the masses

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-21 09:15pm

salm wrote: why? if i understood the article correctly they illegally entered iranian territorry with military ships. imagine what the brits would do with iranian ships entering british waters.

Probuabbly ask them to leave first. Thats generally what you do when someone strays slightly across your boarder. Theses captured 'ships" are nothing more then Zodiacs.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2004-06-22 11:43am

ITV reported it initially as three 'British Navy Battleships'.

1) In the UK it's OK to call us the Royal Navy since there is no confusion ... so why the 'Brtiish Navy', ITV?

2) The less said about the media and 'Battleships', the better.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-06-22 12:35pm

But don't you see? Every naval vessel that goes to war also is a "battleship" because it does battle.

They really should just use "warship" now.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2004-06-22 08:15pm

First off, I think everybody here can see that this is a pretty transparent attempt by Iran to get some leverage in the current negotiations regarding its nuclear program. Might or might not work, but I doubt this'll come to blows or anything.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2004-06-22 10:36pm

A dangerous gamble on Iran’s part. Huffing and puffing about the inviolability of sovereign waters is one thing, but detaining the vessels – and more importantly, the crew – of a powerful European nation is quite another. Regardless of how much the Iranians try to raise legal quibbles, nobody in Britain is very likely to regard the situation as anything more than an attempt by Tehran to embarrass Her Majesty’s government. For a nation that wants so desperately to avoid criticism of its nuclear program in the near future – not to mention deter American policy-makers from regarding Iran as sufficiently dangerous to warrant a potential airstrike during reactor work-up –, this is a very stupid move.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-06-22 10:49pm

Axis Kast wrote: this is a very stupid move.

The unfortunate RN guys in question are in the custody if the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, boneheaded acts of macho stupidity are the stock in trade of this particular faction of the Iranian state.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-06-22 11:50pm

Here's an update

CBC wrote:LONDON - Iran appears to be pulling back from its threat to prosecute eight British sailors accused of illegally entering Iran's territorial waters along the border with Iraq.

Iranian state TV showed the sailors blindfolded and seated on the ground.

Two of the sailors spoke including Sgt. Thomas Hawkins who said, "Yesterday we were arrested by the Revolutionary Guard because we were one mile within Iranian waters in a flotilla of three boats. I realize this was a big mistake and I apologize, I'm sorry."

The other sailor to speak, Chief Petty Officer Robert Webster, said "we were arrested because we mistakenly entered Iranian waters. On the command of our superiors we were accompanying a boat from Um Qasr to Basra."

The sailors were arrested on Monday in the Shatt-al-Arab waterway as they were delivering a patrol boat for a new Iraqi patrol service.

Iranian officials are now saying they could release the Britons if interrogations show "they had no bad intention."

Britain's Foreign Office said in a statement it is very concerned by the pictures and "we are raising it with the Iranians at the appropriate level."

Iran's ambassador to London was summoned to a meeting to explain why the sailors had been arrested. Britain maintains they may have strayed into Iranian waters, but only by accident.

Apologised? The only question that I have regarding that is, where they forced at gunpoint?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-06-23 01:02am

Apologised? The only question that I have regarding that is, where they forced at gunpoint?

I doubt it. He didn't apologize for much. He said they accidentally crossed into Iranian waters, and apologized for making a navigation error. It's not like he was apologizing for raping and killing half of Iran, while forcing the other half to watch.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-06-23 01:17am

This was covered in Tuesdays Guardian, the boats where unarmed to be delievered to the Iraq Naval Patrols, at the same time the Navy officers on board where helping to train the future crew of the boats. (IE Iraq Military personal) There where Small arms carried by the Navy personel but that was all. It is unlikely to devolp into a big international incident since Britain and Iran have been moving towards a tentative diplomatic understanding and better relations for some time now.

All in all it's being seen as mostly a small Military matter rather than a major political one, and is not likely to last vry long, since the Iran government likely is not going to risk it's good relations with Britain over a few unarmed patrol boats.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-06-23 02:15am

3rd Impact wrote:I'd imagine Iran is doing this to make a point- I mean, plenty of ships have probably crossed the imaginary line in the Shatt-Al-Arab in the months before now, so why arrest these ones at this point?

Perhaps it has something to do with the situation in Iraq. Iran may want to demonstrate it has some leverage.

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Iran: British vessels confiscated

Iran: British vessels confiscated

Update