If Thrawn won Bilbringi

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2004-06-21 03:28pm

Say that things changed. The Nogri weren't fucked over by the Empire, and so they don't turn on Thrawn. Thrawn accomplishes all his objectives in the battle, and the Rebel forces are forced to retreat.
The Rebels lose one out of every 3 capital ships (say, equal to a Mon Cal ship), and 2 out of 5 escorts (Anything equal to or below a Nebulon-B in size or firepower)
They do not lose any Capships crewed by a major character. That means Home One and Rogue Squadron are still intact.

What happens then? Where will Thrawn strike next? Can the Rebels still hold other important targets, or will Thrawn restore order to the Galaxy?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-21 03:56pm

They imply that the Republic isn't doing well politically either. Many outlying systems may defect outright to the Empire, while others throughout the Republic may leave and go neutral, taking large manufactures, fleets, and armies with them.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-21 04:15pm

If Thrawn had won there? That's a big IF, at the end things were going against the Empire and I believe they were heavily outnumbered.. however, Pellaeon believed Thrawn could still pull a victory out of it.

But the effect would've been if the Empire had won would be a near total collapse of the Republic's morale. Kind of like after WWI and the Nivelle offensive where around 40,000 french troops refused to come back to the front. Not to mention, Thrawn also worked hard to make himself out to be a different type of despot. He wasn't mad or insane like his other predecessors and had no intention of reprisals, revenge, slaughter, etc.

So I'm sure a lot of systems would've sued for peace with the Empire and Thrawn would've been gracious in his acceptances.

The Republic military would have a huge problem as several sector fleets would've been left hamstringed as well, and the loss of those sectors left minimally defended would've also been to Thrawn's benefit. And the NR would not be able to mount any more major offensives against the Empire.

And if Mount tantiss didn't fall as well, Thrawn would have the manpower he needed.

So the question is, if Thrawn had won, how would the galaxy have reacted to the YV invasion?

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2004-06-21 04:28pm

OK, OP-modification. Mount Tantiss was damaged, but half the Spaarti cloning cylinders are repairable. It will take Thrawn 4 months to restore them to full status. Can he overcome his manpower shortage?

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2004-06-21 04:30pm

Trytostaydead wrote:So the question is, if Thrawn had won, how would the galaxy have reacted to the YV invasion?

I admit I have not read any of the NJO books. But, I think there's a quote somewhere stating the Vong acknowledging the fact that they would had failed their offensive if they were pitted against the Empire at it's height (OT-era), so I believe that under Thrawn, the end would had come just as quickly for the YV.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-21 04:37pm

Setzer wrote:OK, OP-modification. Mount Tantiss was damaged, but half the Spaarti cloning cylinders are repairable. It will take Thrawn 4 months to restore them to full status. Can he overcome his manpower shortage?

1.) Moving the goalposts is bad form.

2.) There were only something like 70,000 cylinders turning out a soldier a week. Well, even if they were running 3/4s of that year, that's only a bit over a quarter of a million troops. In a galaxy of quadrillions?

The clone cylinders were a long-term threat in the form of a great lead in biotechnology infrastructure by the Empire and a short-term psychological advantage playing on the galaxy's feelings on clones.

Losing a million or so spec-ops over the next year for Thrawn wouldn't stop him, especially with Bilbringi in the hole and the Republic fragmenting at his leisure.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-06-21 04:49pm

Thrawn could have won. He had planned offensive actions for years to come. The New Republic was in trouble, they were on the verge of facing defeat, but they had never really gone over the Abyss. This would have sent them over the edge and Thrawn would have steadily rolled them back.

Now there is one thing to take into account. Did Thrawn have any SSDs at his disposal? And would the Lusankya make a difference for the New Republic once they got it opperational?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-21 04:50pm

This is all quite irrelevent anyway; Palpatine would have destroyed Thrawn shortly in the upcoming months, spoiling his victory.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-06-21 05:50pm

I'm not sure if Palpatine would have killed Thrawn immediately, seeing as he led the largest Imperial faction. It would have been likely that he would have been asked to participate in the Seige of Coruscant and the containment of the Republic Fleet. Wether or not he would survive the Mutiny is a different question, however. He might have been able to best the warlords like Delvardus and Terradoc in the civil war, seeing as he had the fleet behind him.

In fact, I think that it's possible that the Mutiny would not have happened had Thrawn been present for the retaking of Coruscant. One of the main causes of the Mutiny was that the Empire had no leader after Thrawn, and they were divided into seperate blocs (Warlords, Advisors, Moffs, COMPNOR, ISB, Ubiqtorate, starfleet, army). The Fleet asked that they should name another Grand Admiral to replace Thrawn as leader, but if he was still alive, the Empire would have had unifying figure.

However, Thrawn would then have a little bit too much power for Palpatine to be comfortable. It's probable that once the Empire was stabilized (by Thrawn) and Corsucant and the Core Worlds taken, Palpatine would have Thrawn assassinated so that he may retake control over the Empire.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-21 06:47pm

You know, you have to wonder if Palpatine would've killed Thrawn if they met up. While yes, it says Palpy was using Thrawn as a diversion, I believe somewhere it also says Palpatine was disheartened to learn that Thrawn was the one to step up and take the bait to divert the NR's attention.

However, I somehow think Thrawn would've voluntarily surrendered control to Palpatine. Thrawn should know he can't stand up to non-mad clone force Jedi Master, let alone EMPEROR, and he never showed any inkling of disobedience to Palpatine before ('cept when it came to tactical matters, but that's not really disobedience). If Thrawn could get what he wanted, which was a stable Galaxy ready for whatever he was gearing up to fight, I think he'd cede control to Palpatine.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2004-06-21 06:52pm

Alyeska wrote: Now there is one thing to take into account. Did Thrawn have any SSDs at his disposal? And would the Lusankya make a difference for the New Republic once they got it opperational?

Given that they shifted it to Bilbringi to help get it operational, would they have actually managed to get it working at all?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-06-21 07:25pm

Thrawn never really wanted power. He didn't want to control the Galaxy, he simply wanted to make it stable for the ruling power. Thrawn had control over the military, but not everything strictly speaking. Had the Emporer revealed his presence then Thrawn would have gladly let the Emporer take power. Given what the Emporer knows about Thrawn and how well he was conducting things, I don't see Thrawn being removed from command.

Also given that the Emporer had the heaviest of the Imperial ships around his little hiding spot, that would have added a significant striking power to the Imperial forces that I earlier hadn't appreciated. This means all the goodies above ISD in firepower and capability. You thought Thrawn was tough in an ISD, imagine him in a Sovereign or Eclipse.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-06-21 09:55pm

I think when the Emperor emerged he would have contacted Thrawn and made him "Supreme Commander" under Skywalker. They retake Coruscant, and Thrawn holds it for the Emperor. The mutiny still happens, and Thrawn is stuck exactly where he doesn't want to be: Leading the whole Empire.

The remnant, the 250 sectors of unknown space, and all the warlords that pledged support to the Emperor are suddenly his, giving him at least tenfold the resources he had in HTTE not counting Coruscant. I can see many of the smaller systems suing for peace and a return to status-quo-ante.

He probably would have spent a few years cleaning up the messes, getting rid of the "super weapons" that he didn't like, and establishing a ruling council of moffs and Admirals (probably Pallaeon gets a promotion) and then he continues the conquest.

By now he doesn't need clones, so you get a restored Empire without any Sith influences that is something of an egalitarian (aliens not opressed) military autocracy.

Anything wrong with my guess?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-22 12:16am

Palpatine caused Thrawn to die; so no.

Palpatine intentionally caused the Mutiny by arranging for the assault and capture of Coruscant and many Core Worlds by the Imperial Coalition before he outright revealed himself to thin the herd of the weak and stupid. It was desirable.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2004-06-22 12:31am

I'm just wondering, could Mount Tantiss (well, the cloning center anyway) have been saved? Didn't Lando set the thing to blow? EVen if Thrawn won the battle, how in the hell would he have prevented that?

Though I suppose it might make things interesting... IIRC the OP said the Noghri don't turn, and I think the Noghri were there to help Luke and Crew (were they also responsible for Karrde showing up when he did?). Also, didn't Reb ships show up after the fact? Since the Imperials knew Tantiss was under attack (Palleaon got a message to that effect I think), could they have gotten away before some Imperial ships were sent to investigate? With or without Karrde's help?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-22 12:43am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine caused Thrawn to die; so no.

Palpatine intentionally caused the Mutiny by arranging for the assault and capture of Coruscant and many Core Worlds by the Imperial Coalition before he outright revealed himself to thin the herd of the weak and stupid. It was desirable.

I thought it was that bitch Leia that caused Thrawn to die. =) By turning the Noghri against Thrawn.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-22 12:49am

Ruhk was supposed to be isolated from outside contact; the Dark Empire Sourcebook says Palpy saw to it that Thrawn would die.

I assume this means that he facilitated Rukh's learning of Thrawn's betrayal, though the means is never specifically stated.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-22 12:51am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I think when the Emperor emerged he would have contacted Thrawn and made him "Supreme Commander" under Skywalker. They retake Coruscant, and Thrawn holds it for the Emperor. The mutiny still happens, and Thrawn is stuck exactly where he doesn't want to be: Leading the whole Empire.

The remnant, the 250 sectors of unknown space, and all the warlords that pledged support to the Emperor are suddenly his, giving him at least tenfold the resources he had in HTTE not counting Coruscant. I can see many of the smaller systems suing for peace and a return to status-quo-ante.

He probably would have spent a few years cleaning up the messes, getting rid of the "super weapons" that he didn't like, and establishing a ruling council of moffs and Admirals (probably Pallaeon gets a promotion) and then he continues the conquest.

By now he doesn't need clones, so you get a restored Empire without any Sith influences that is something of an egalitarian (aliens not opressed) military autocracy.

Anything wrong with my guess?

Yeah, this "Palpy will sit by and let the Blue Boy run his Empire for him" thing.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-22 12:53am

Anyway, the ultimate answer to this question is that the events of Dark Empire move up on the time tables a bit, and Palpatine disposes of Thrawn some other way. By this time Thrawn was now viewed as a potential rival; not an ignorant servant.

That's about it.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-06-22 01:15am

Alyeska wrote:Thrawn could have won. He had planned offensive actions for years to come.

Agreed; I mean this is the guy who had backup plans for backup plans after all!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ruhk was supposed to be isolated from outside contact; the Dark Empire Sourcebook says Palpy saw to it that Thrawn would die.

Also agree, with a quote that the Essential Chronology uses:

Only Palpatine could rule the Empire.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-06-22 07:15am

Thrawn wins at Bilbringi.

However the shipyard is badly damaged and the cloning-facility of MountTantiss is destroyed.

The shipyard can be repaired. If the ability to clone 20,000 new soldiers every ten days is lost forever depands, if the empire took a few cylinders away for study and is able to build more. It would however slow down the imperial efforts to win the galaxy back and probabely give the NR time to recover from their defeat.

However it is more possible, that for the NewRepublic the defeat at Bilbringi would be desastrous. The results could lead from the entire leadership being stunned, until then independant worlds returning into the open arms of the empire to a total fragmentation of the entire state. A break-apart would put the NR in the same position as the empire before Thrawn´s return.

If the last would happen the empire would regain its entire domain relatively easily and most of the imperial warlords would have no other choice, but to step back in line.

Since there is no vacant leadership, something like the Imperial Mutiny wouldn´t happen.

Palpatine is the rightful ruler of the empire, even if he abandoned large parts of his empire for six years. It would be easy for him to step forward and to order Thrawn to give control back to him. If Thrawn doesn´t he is a traitor, a mutineer.

At that point all depends on Thrawn´s believe, if he could turn traitor and survive. Given the fact, that the emperor has already large parts of the Imperial Core-Navy under his control, not to mention COMPNOR and that Palpatine could quickly take over the entire bureucracy and administration of the empire, also considering, that Thrawn is a non-human and has been given leadership only as a figure-head (EC) the chances of the Chiss become smaller and smaller.

In the end he could only rely on the members of his personal armada, and perhaps not even them (since already C´Baoth nurtured doubts in Thrawn´s ablities among the younger officers).

Thrawn has three possibilities:

-make place for Palpatine and hope, that the emperor spares his life (considering, that the emperor allowed such figures like Harrsk and Terradoc to stay alive, the chances aren´t bad and Thrawn would still be to useful to be simply disposed of, aside from that he was truly working for the interests of the empire),

-defect to the rebels (dangerous, considering the damage he did to them and also dangerous for his people in the UR, if Palpatine sents a fleet to punish them for Thrawn´s services to the rebels),

-defect and vanish, what would mean, that he would be in the same situation, where Parck discovered him decades ago.

Sidenote: How Rhuk learned about the empires betrayal is described in the TLC-Sourcebook from WEG. He learns it from another Noghri. No need for Palpatine to have a hand in Thrawn´s death until he caused Leia through the force to discover this decon-droid on Honoghor).

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-06-22 09:32am

*10 foot pole, 10 foot pole, 10 foot pole, 10 foot pole, 10 foot pole.*

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-06-22 09:44am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ruhk was supposed to be isolated from outside contact; the Dark Empire Sourcebook says Palpy saw to it that Thrawn would die.

Where ... exactly?

EDIT :: Don't worry, I found it;

[i]Dark Empire Source Book[/i], Chapter 2 wrote:Still, no contender could ever be allowed to become too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return.

What a bunch of sour grapes...

But hey, it's not as if the sourcebook is meant to be accurate or anything;

[i]Dark Empire Source Book[/i], Chapter 2 wrote:C'baoth was a more curious case. Thrawn was brilliant enough to realize only an insane Dark Jedi would violate the Emperor's ban ordering them all into silence years ago. While they waited in their castles for their Emperor's command. Thrawn had sought out the one who would have forgotten all such orders years ago. It was most satisfying to watch the mad Jedi's mind unravel.

Jeez, for those of us who read the book, C'boath was actually a insane clone, not the actual Dark Jedi who served Palpatine, but hey why quarrel over minor details?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-06-22 11:45am

I think that this Dark Side Sourcebook is yet another fucked up RPG thing that is barely worth the paper it's printed on as evidence.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-22 02:01pm

Crown wrote:Jeez, for those of us who read the book, C'boath was actually a insane clone, not the actual Dark Jedi who served Palpatine, but hey why quarrel over minor details?

Before whining and throwing rotten tomatoes, you should do your homework.

Jorus C'boath was a Jedi Master (not a Dark Jedi, in other words) who served as a Jedi consultant to Palpatine earlier in his Senatorial career, and later died aboard the Outbound Flight Project by Palpatine's direction.

Joruus, however...

[i]The Essential Guide to Characters[/i], page 28 wrote:Joruus protected the Wayland facility known as Mount Tantiss, a secret Imperial facility used for cloning purposes and weapons storage. (emphasis mine)

[i]The Essential Guide to Characters[/i], page 29 wrote:With his memories clouded, this C'boath did not even remember his original mission, nor his service to the Emperor Palpatine. (emphasis mine)

Oh, so The Dark Empire Sourcebook is correct, and it is you who should mind your "little details."

NecronLord wrote:I think that this Dark Side Sourcebook is yet another fucked up RPG thing that is barely worth the paper it's printed on as evidence.

Sue Rostini wrote:Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon. (emphasis mine)

Congrats, your opinion is quite frankly irrelevent. The DESB is canonical insofar that it does not contradict or undermine GL's saga of films and screenplays, and is thus an official part of the continuous Star Wars history.