Is it necessary to map?

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-19 12:36am

Is it a necessity to map a system before we can jump in it?
I see the footage in ANH where Han makes his statement.
In ESB Luke makes his statement about plotting a course to Dagobah
In ESB there is the calculation about where the falcon might have gone. Trajectories.
But none of these events say that I cannot safely travel across large distances without an accurate map. Only that I must be wary of obstacles as I jump.

So, is it actually necessary to have an accurate map of space in order to go to hyperspace for long distances?

I would say no. And I would say that the short jump rule is therefore incorrect also. We can hyperspace for as long we want for any distance as we want. Our onboard nav systems are not reading from a map at all. They are somehow reading ahead of our desired destination location and telling us how to get there.

Of course, if I want to make a jump to a specific location I need maps or the coordinates of some sort. I need the accurate coordinates of my destination in comparison to where I am currently sitting, otherwise how would I possibly know where it is or how to get there?
But if I want to just jump across the entire galaxy, with no particular destination in mind, why can't I? My nav computer calculates where I want to go and I go. I have no particular destination in mind. Just forward.

I have no faith that a captured ST map could possibly tell me where all the anomalies are, where all the comets are, where all the "bad" stuff is located. They consistently find new space "things" that need investigating and need to be examined. The ST universe lacks the ability to map these events automatically or is too new to have already mapped them. The SW universe has presumably mapped all of these events and predicted all their paths of travel. Or I can do it on the fly from my on board system? Hmmm?

We all know that all systems and planets are mapped, as evidenced in AOTC. But that map cannot account for objects that are in constant movement. It would suggest that there are two maps. One for educational purposes in the library about systems/known planets and one for star ship travel/navigation - which is stored locally on ships as small as a Xwing.
Since the rebels are "potentially" cut off from the library and from the updates, they would need another method of updating their records of changed space. They do not seem to have probes to give them this updated information. How do they get it?
(I will admit, one can easily justify that their spies can gain the space changing information and feed it to the rebel fleet. The rebels seem to have a large number of sympathizers and spies. So perhaps this is how they update their databases? Also the Mon Cal might already have access to all this information through their own information gathering system.)
But we do not see nor hear any evidence of this capability. It seems to me that the Mon Cal entered the battle in later stages, perhaps they were not cut off from the space information and when they joined the alliance, they had the most up-to-date hyperspace information available. ?

Anyway, I ask, do I really need an accurate map, other than to strike specific targets or arrive at specific positions, to move safely into and through an unknown area? I think that the films can be interpreted to suggest that I do not.

Let me know your thoughts.

-Thx Jack.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-19 01:55am

I never really bought the whole map thing. Here's one for you. I can't remember the book, but in one of them, it talked about Han and his maps. He kept star maps rolled up (it actually said that) in the Falcon. It also talked how Han ignored the other smugglers and pirates when they'd chide him about it. Han was to worried that the Falcon might make a bad jump and he'd be lost in space forever. So, do they really keep maps? If you follow the EU doesn't seem likely to a huge degree. i'm sure they have the coordinates of say Alderaan, the nav computer just has to calculate and make sure nothing is in the way. I don't believe it would have the exact route from Tatooine to Alderaan stored. Merely the coordinates since it takes only a minute maybe at most to calculate. This would fall in with ST vs Sw. Everyone says, first thing is find a ST ship and steal its star charts. That can be useful to pinpoint earth coordinates or such. However, Trekkies always claim that Wars would be lost because they don't know whats out there. Heh. Knock Knock. Whose there? Imperial. Imperial who? Imperial foot in your uneducated ass.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-19 06:58am

Of course one doesn't NEED to map. You can just point your ship in any given direction and press the "Go" button on the hyperdrive.

Good luck in doing so, though.

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2002-07-19 07:27am

Maybe the Rebels get navigational updates from a neutral body, like the Bureau of Ships and Services.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-19 07:39am

Maybe the Rebels get navigational updates from a neutral body, like the Bureau of Ships and Services.

Thats whats been tossed around alot is that there is neutral orginzation that keeps track of things oh and that the Rebels can simply use *edited star-charts
IE everything important Imperal is keep off for secruity reason but otherwise normal full charts

Second we know there are FEW *Proscripted roots, IE Roots go to A then B then C
Mostly shipping companys use them as they are routes that trade Speed for Safety allow a ship to be near a habited planet at all times thus is somthing brakes your not stranded in the middle O no-where

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-07-19 08:23am

Umm wouldn't the star charts *maps* be made public for the citizens of the Empire? If so then the Rebels should've easily gotten them without the use of spies/informants.

Cyaround,
Jason

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-19 08:58am

Anyone with a Pilot's Guild book should have access to updated navigation charts, at least for those areas not expressly restricted.

In Han Solo and the Lost Legacy there is specific reference to the Pilot's Guild:

"Lanni had a Pilot's Guild book and flew a lot of work runs, surface-to-surface stuff. ..."

Earlier, in Han Solo at Stars' End, there is extensive reference to the Imperial Entertainers' Guild. It appears that the Empire, and likely the Republic before it, had extensive licensing requirements, much like most modern societies.

What that means is that the Rebellion, supported overtly and covertly by entire worlds and sectors, would simply need just one apprentice navigator from a galactic shipping line to occasionally copy and forward a copy of the latest navigation charts to Rebel contacts.[/i]

Aaron2 · Post by **Aaron2** » 2002-07-19 09:13am

Those old Han Solo books are great.

Anyway, Han says "any of the charts" once. So, I guess, there is more than one way to get them.

And, yes, you need charts to go to hyperspace to avoid flying into things.

Aaron

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-19 12:43pm

And you have to get exact coordoinates of the system, because if you stay in hyperspace for a second too long, you'll miss it by trillions of kilometers.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-07-19 01:11pm

As of AOTC, only the Office of the Supreme Chancellor and the Jedi Council can afford to keep comprehensive maps due to the cost (ref. ICS).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-19 03:52pm

Thats the march of Tecnology, by Ten to fiften years later they are common

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-19 05:47pm

Mr Bean wrote:Thats the march of Tecnology, by Ten to fiften years later they are common

The question might really be the following: Who needs comprehensive navigational maps detailing every single possible navigational hazard in the entire galaxy? Even given incredibly advanced data storage, that should be an incredible mass of data, and one fairly quickly outdated by the events inevitable in an active, lived-in galaxy?

Answer: Only the biggest organizations, whose affairs may require their agents to literally go anywhere in the galaxy at any time.

Realistically, if realism can be applied, a freighter captain would likely keep comprehensive navigational charts on only those galactic sectors he expects to ever actually go, some adjoining sectors, and the major, long-established hyperlanes commonly used in transgalactic commerce.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-19 06:13pm

The point is they are readily avaible instead of having to go through another group to get them

Its like Comparing how you got maps in 1800 in the USA VS how you can get them today
If you wanted maps them go to the Goverment/Library and BORROW one
VS going to the Gas-station and buying one on the cheap

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-20 02:38pm

Mr Bean wrote:The point is they are readily avaible instead of having to go through another group to get them

Its like Comparing how you got maps in 1800 in the USA VS how you can get them today
If you wanted maps them go to the Goverment/Library and BORROW one
VS going to the Gas-station and buying one on the cheap

Well, I'm sure there are places in the SW galaxy where you can get a map of a hyperspace route, kinda like a road map.

But, would there be many civilians with their own hyperspace-capable ships? Would owning a spaceship in the SW galaxy be more like owning a car, or more like owning a plane? That's what I've been wondering.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 02:48pm

Owning a Car, Everyone has access to some kind of Transport
Except not all Cars are Hyper-space capable, realy depends on which planet your talking about but generaly its a real common thing to have a ship, wiether it can break the Strasophere or can leave to another planet is anybodys guess on what those statisitcs are

Ship ARE common, what kind of ships, Thats the up in the air part

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-21 07:23pm

As I follow this thread then,

A. There are places to get updated star maps. Spies, criminals, other races who are not part of the war.
B. It is possible to jump through space with no specific destination in mind and not collide with something.
C. Presumably, technology in the SW universe is advanced enough that information of a galactic scale can be stored in a vessel as small as an Xwing.

Questions:
Are accurate star maps as easy to obtain as road maps at gas stations?

But, would there be many civilians with their own hyperspace-capable ships? Would owning a spaceship in the SW galaxy be more like owning a car, or more like owning a plane? That's what I've been wondering. - I repeat A.A. Lt.Cmdr.Smi's question.

Which is more plausible. Ships can calculate their own trajectories though hyperspace without hitting things. They only need maps to exit hyperspace at a specific destination?

-Jack.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-22 02:21am

Starships can scan, and that's what Han was doing anyways. Calculating the jump. Also, when they were attached to the ISDs bridge, he was scrolling through a list of systems close by. The Falcon at least has some form of maps, but also, it was shown that they calculated the jump. If the ship had maps it should be easy for them to hit the button shouldn't it? I think it's a combination. They have a map, it shows Tatooine and Alderaan. It might have trade routes, but a path form somewhere like Tatooine to Alderaan is something it has to scan and calculate.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-22 06:49am

If you think about it, it should be relatively simple for small ships in the SW universe to store basic maps of the galaxy. I'm speculating that the maps in the Library on Coruscant weren't simple maps... rather, they were probably predictive maps that constantly updated themselves in real-time based on gravity fluctuations and calculations. This would require them to be far more complex, as the computer systems would have to constantly be making new calculations for possibly over a trillion significant celestial bodies at once.

I base this, of course, on the solution by which Yoda's Jedi Jr.'s found the Kamino planet... by checking for gravity fluctuations.

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-22 01:06pm

[quote="DG_Cal_Wright"]Starships can scan, and that's what Han was doing anyways. Calculating the jump. Also, when they were attached to the ISDs bridge, he was scrolling through a list of systems close by. The Falcon at least has some form of maps, but also, it was shown that they calculated the jump. If the ship had maps it should be easy for them to hit the button shouldn't it? I think it's a combination. They have a map, it shows Tatooine and Alderaan. It might have trade routes, but a path form somewhere like Tatooine to Alderaan is something it has to scan and calculate.[/quote]

This was my thinking. Ships only store coordinates. The calculation to avoid obstacles isn't really a calculation at all. It is a long-range scan that reads whether there is something in the way or not. Well, there is some calculation of course, a ships current position in relation to its desired destination to gather distance information, but the computer is not looking up data when it checks to see if it will collide with an object. It is instead checking ahead of itself in hyperspace to see what lies between itself and the destination.

If this is accurate, then the SW universe has scanning capability to read across the entire galaxy in hyperspace. Or at least they have the ability to scan across huge distances in hyperspace, perhaps not the entire galaxy.

1. Find target coordinates in onboard database
2. Calculate distance to target in relation to current location
3. Scan hyperspace between self and target for obstacles
4. Jump

Is this plausible? And does it fit with canon evidence?

-Jack.

Aaron2 · Post by **Aaron2** » 2002-07-22 06:16pm

Jack Lain wrote:If this is accurate, then the SW universe has scanning capability to read across the entire galaxy in hyperspace. Or at least they have the ability to scan across huge distances in hyperspace, perhaps not the entire galaxy.

1. Find target coordinates in onboard database
2. Calculate distance to target in relation to current location
3. Scan hyperspace between self and target for obstacles
4. Jump

Is this plausible? And does it fit with canon evidence?

-Jack.

Hyperspace trips don't have to be in a straight line. (hyperspace trade routes are curved). So you really only need to calculate a point from you to the nearest trade route.

Also, according to the Radio Drama, it is possible to change your destination once in hyperspace. This would require a map, I'm sure.

Aaron

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-22 09:39pm

Aaron2 wrote:
Jack Lain wrote:If this is accurate, then the SW universe has scanning capability to read across the entire galaxy in hyperspace. Or at least they have the ability to scan across huge distances in hyperspace, perhaps not the entire galaxy.

1. Find target coordinates in onboard database
2. Calculate distance to target in relation to current location
3. Scan hyperspace between self and target for obstacles
4. Jump

Is this plausible? And does it fit with canon evidence?

-Jack.
Hyperspace trips don't have to be in a straight line. (hyperspace trade routes are curved). So you really only need to calculate a point from you to the nearest trade route.

Also, according to the Radio Drama, it is possible to change your destination once in hyperspace. This would require a map, I'm sure.

Aaron

Holy fuck. Please tell me you can prove that. The radio dramas (cannon mind you) say you can change directoin in hyperspace?!? I'd love to get that on tape then shove up the collective asshole of every snot nosed Trekkie that pops off about the superiority of warp.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-22 09:41pm

Jack Lain wrote:
DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Starships can scan, and that's what Han was doing anyways. Calculating the jump. Also, when they were attached to the ISDs bridge, he was scrolling through a list of systems close by. The Falcon at least has some form of maps, but also, it was shown that they calculated the jump. If the ship had maps it should be easy for them to hit the button shouldn't it? I think it's a combination. They have a map, it shows Tatooine and Alderaan. It might have trade routes, but a path form somewhere like Tatooine to Alderaan is something it has to scan and calculate.
This was my thinking. Ships only store coordinates. The calculation to avoid obstacles isn't really a calculation at all. It is a long-range scan that reads whether there is something in the way or not. Well, there is some calculation of course, a ships current position in relation to its desired destination to gather distance information, but the computer is not looking up data when it checks to see if it will collide with an object. It is instead checking ahead of itself in hyperspace to see what lies between itself and the destination.

If this is accurate, then the SW universe has scanning capability to read across the entire galaxy in hyperspace. Or at least they have the ability to scan across huge distances in hyperspace, perhaps not the entire galaxy.

1. Find target coordinates in onboard database
2. Calculate distance to target in relation to current location
3. Scan hyperspace between self and target for obstacles
4. Jump

Is this plausible? And does it fit with canon evidence?

-Jack.

No offense, but yes it does, duh! That's what my post was about. Han had the Falcon's computer calculate and determine the safest route. "Making a trip through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops boy...You could fly right through a star or bounce to close to a supernova and that would end your trip real quick."

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-22 11:03pm

I know. The "this is what I was thinking" is in agreement to your post. And the steps are simply a 1-4 of how it would go. You and I are on the same page.

-Jack.