Is there really light and dark?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-21 06:50pm

Is there really a light and darkside of the FORCE itself, or is the distinction just in the user of the force?

I mean, people reference it to the lightside and darkside of the Force, but there are also lots of suggestions that maybe the Force itself doesn't have that kind of distinction. Because if the Force was really that partitioned, it would be at war with itself and its wisdom garbled.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-06-21 07:51pm

Its basically how you use the force. If you use it foe good then its a "light" side thing, if you use it for evil, than its a "dark" side thing. So its all how you use it. Not to mention the Dark side consumes you, the light side doesn't.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-06-21 09:15pm

The implication i always got was there was a defined Light Force and Dark force, which were, collectively, refered to as THE Force.

Otherwise what was all that about light and dark and good and evil everyone is always harping about in the movies? I seriously doubt every Jedi and Sith in the galaxy is purposely talking out of their ass, or would be that ignorant of the very powers they possess.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-06-21 09:44pm

This subject is really big in the YV series. Basically, they were kinda making it up. There is no dark and light, only intent. Force Lightning to save a life is good, misdirection to make someone jump off a cliff is bad. It is the intent of the Jedi which makes the effect "light" or "dark". They made the distinction to protect the force-users from enjoying the use of overwhelming force.

I'm sure some fanboy who memorized the books can do it better than I, though.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-21 10:07pm

The problem is Lucas subscribes to two sides.

Literally he never has a single Jedi go "Nope, it's all the Force!"

So within Canon it is only light and dark, with EU a few subscribe to it all being the same but intent. Especially given Yoda talks about delving into the Dark Side to find the truth in AoTC as well as the Shroud of the Dark Side...we can guess where Lucas stands on the issue.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-22 03:52am

Techno_Union wrote:Its basically how you use the force. If you use it foe good then its a "light" side thing, if you use it for evil, than its a "dark" side thing. So its all how you use it. Not to mention the Dark side consumes you, the light side doesn't.

What do you mean the light side doesn't consume you? What the hell do you think happened to Obi-wan and Yoda? Accelerated decomposition?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Force Lightning to save a life is good, misdirection to make someone jump off a cliff is bad. It is the intent of the Jedi which makes the effect "light" or "dark". They made the distinction to protect the force-users from enjoying the use of overwhelming force.

Maybe WOTC could have handled their game system a little better then.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-06-22 04:09am

The legion of Force weirdos moving around in the EU (fallanassis, Dathomir witches...) strongly suggests that there is only one force that gives power according to the approach used.

I myself choose the ol' gud "dark side/light side".

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-06-22 04:50am

"Knowledge and defense" vs "attack" is good enough for me.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-06-22 09:03am

I don't subscribe to this NJO shit myself. There is a light and a dark side in my book...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-06-22 10:14am

Yes and no.

The movies, are ambiguous at worst, but lean on the 'yes' side. The EU is worse, and now thanks to that pile of crap known as the NJO it leans to the 'no' side.

If you listen the commentary on AotC George specifically describes force lightning as a 'Sith Power' and the dark side as being 'immediately stronger', which firmly puts it in the 'yes' catagory.

So;

George Lucas > Movies >>>>> EU NJO crap.

Answer; Yes there is a Light and Dark side.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-22 10:45am

I think of the Light and the Dark side as the Yin and the Yang. They both exist as seperate forces, but neither can exist without the other.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-06-22 10:51am

To Master Yoda , I listen

Good and evil; Light and Dark

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2004-06-22 10:58am

If the force is a "living force" it makes sense that theres a good version and an evil version

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-06-22 11:15am

I'm, naturally, with the 'George Lucas>Movies>>>>>>>>>NJO' crowd. I trust the guy who created the universe to know more about it than some sci-fi writers whocame in to feed off his sloopy seconds. Plus the moves almost explicitly state that there is a defined Light and Dark. Lucas created it, the movies defined it, the books contridict it...go with teh (more reliable) former.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-06-22 01:37pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:I'm, naturally, with the 'George Lucas>Movies>>>>>>>>>NJO' crowd. I trust the guy who created the universe to know more about it than some sci-fi writers whocame in to feed off his sloopy seconds. Plus the moves almost explicitly state that there is a defined Light and Dark. Lucas created it, the movies defined it, the books contridict it...go with teh (more reliable) former.

Psh, you're going to still trust the man who created midichlorians, the immaculate conception and a kid that says "Whooopee" when flying spaceships?!!

Let's turn it on the head, while it might seem it says so explicitly, wouldn't it also make sense that when one says "is the darkside of the force stronger" couldn't it also mean that maybe anger makes the outcome more powerful? To which Yoda replies it is not stronger, just quicker and more seductive meaning that the Darkside is a quicker way to channel the power of the force through dark means, but since they both draw on the same source, it's neither weaker nor stronger.

And in the HoTD you have those monks who can also use the force, the blackfleet trilogy, to which the force is described as a big river or great rainbow. Choose a color or how you dip into the river..

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-22 02:13pm

You still have to refute little things like Shroud of the Dark Side as well as other events in AoTC.

As it stands GL say two sides, at best EU becomes a philosophical difference but by no means overrides what has been shown on film.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2004-06-22 02:50pm

Ghost Rider wrote:You still have to refute little things like Shroud of the Dark Side as well as other events in AoTC.

As it stands GL say two sides, at best EU becomes a philosophical difference but by no means overrides what has been shown on film.

Shroud of the Dark Side, a metaphor for the strong evil intent of palpatine?

Or is it actually more literal in that the darkside literally prevents the light side from working when in close proximity?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-06-22 03:32pm

Stofsk wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:Its basically how you use the force. If you use it foe good then its a "light" side thing, if you use it for evil, than its a "dark" side thing. So its all how you use it. Not to mention the Dark side consumes you, the light side doesn't.
What do you mean the light side doesn't consume you? What the hell do you think happened to Obi-wan and Yoda? Accelerated decomposition?

Well I was under the impression they became "one" with the Force out of free will or need. The darkside thought consumes you literally, has anyone every thought of how many clone Palpatine has? Also, I thought Yoda and Obi did that themselve, since we never see another Jedi do this unless its a special circumstance.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-06-22 07:00pm

Techno_Union wrote:Its basically how you use the force. If you use it foe good then its a "light" side thing, if you use it for evil, than its a "dark" side thing. So its all how you use it. Not to mention the Dark side consumes you, the light side doesn't.

.[/quote]

I'm not aware of any other darkside user that has detoriated like Palpatine on Byss. I know the RPG material states a darkside user will detoriate, but where's the evidence?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-22 07:03pm

Zac Naloen wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:You still have to refute little things like Shroud of the Dark Side as well as other events in AoTC.

As it stands GL say two sides, at best EU becomes a philosophical difference but by no means overrides what has been shown on film.

Shroud of the Dark Side, a metaphor for the strong evil intent of palpatine?

Or is it actually more literal in that the darkside literally prevents the light side from working when in close proximity?

Given that Yoda and Mace both talk actually quite deeply of the Dark Side existing and that Lucas while loves methaphors isn't one who uses them to triple speak everything likely not, evidence all points towards two sides in canon.

Especially given that Dark Side control and deterioated as massively as Palpatine did.

And if they are merely same thing...why isn't Mace, Yoda and the entire council massively deformed?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-06-22 09:38pm

Actually, with regards to the NJO

When Vergere (Who was never a night, merely a Padawan) tried the 'there is no light side' on luke, he basically told her off.

However, it's the INTENT that leads to the Dark side. I mean, I can think of ways using the light side to toss the equal of force lightning without using the dark side, like grabbing electrons and tossing them at people.

(I never said it would be easy to do)

Don't read to much into the WOTC material either, they just do a bad job of explaining it. Some powers as we know them are definately dark side, however, there are equal powers in the light.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-22 10:58pm

I'm getting sick and tired of the "Vegere says there's is no Dark Side" crap.

When she said there was no Dark Side, did she say there was no such thing as evil? Nope. No such thing as bad? Nope. No such thing as unwarranted agression? Nope. Did she say agression was bad? Nope.

Indeed, none of the facets of the Jedi Order was compromised whatsoever. The only thing she made clear was that the divisive line, set down by Luke Skywalker, doesn't exist and is not just blurred, but routinely crossed by the Jedi. Yoda, even Obiwan has acknowledged that the Force unites and binds the galaxy together, in no way did they state that the Dark Side of the Force must be banished or differentiated from the galaxy, something that Luke Skywalker seems to emphasise.

Take note that the Orginal Jedi Order, did not emphasise the differentiation of the Force between Light and Dark. Indeed, ignoring the NR mentions, and going back to the Sith comics, WEG and canon material itself, the real difference is between Sith, Living and Unifying Force. The Dark Side, is mentioned, but nowhere is it given the clear seperation, divisive treatment as by Luke Skywalker.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-06-23 03:33am

Doesn't the term "Light Side" (like "Dark Jedi") come exclusively from the EU?

IIRC, Lucas himself only refers to the "Dark Side" and the "Good Side" (vs. "Bad Side") which is akin to Luke's quote in ROTJ ("him back... to the Good Side").

I think the idea of the Dark/Light makes sense, while it sounds like a religious belief (vs. a proven scientific fact that transcends faith or philosophy) it doesn't have to be merely that. The Yin/Yang idea could be one interpretation, OR it could be that the "Force" is all, and the "Dark Side" is merely an aberation (like the "para-force" idea from the early scripts) or corrupt pocket of the Force.

The EU idea seems to be (and this is fine for GAMES) that the "Dark Side" is really just a way of describing what people do when they mis-use the Force for "evil" (selfish & life destructive without societal benefit) purposes. The whole idea of "the dark side consuming you" could be said to just be a person gaining too much power too quickly. Perhaps if one did things a bit "slower" like and laid back they could be evil and be like Yoda.

Who knows? But Lucas seems to have a different interpretation than what the NJO is describing.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-06-23 04:29am

PainRack wrote:I'm getting sick and tired of the "Vegere says there's is no Dark Side" crap.<snip>

Yes I know that snipping is bad form but you have a problem because George Lucas has officially called Force Lightning a 'Sith Power' which flat out contradicts Vegere's spiel about it being a legitamite force power if 'used with the proper intention' bullshit she was on about.

THAT's when Vegere's crap begins to heavily contradict the movies, and George Lucas himself. Which is why it no longer becomes a philisophical discussion about intent but a specific power actually being of the Dark or Light side of the force.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-06-23 04:46am

Crown wrote:
PainRack wrote:I'm getting sick and tired of the "Vegere says there's is no Dark Side" crap.<snip>
Yes I know that snipping is bad form but you have a problem because George Lucas has officially called Force Lightning a 'Sith Power' which flat out contradicts Vegere's spiel about it being a legitamite force power if 'used with the proper intention' bullshit she was on about.

Yoda uses force lightning in AOTC against Dooku. We can see him absorb it, but we ALSO see him shoot it right back at Dooku. So, what's this about force lightning being a Sith power? Is that supposed to mean it's 'evil'? If so, how can Yoda use it and still retain his Justice League membership? Hell, how can he use it AT ALL if it was a 'Sith' power? The Sith were thought extinct for centuries! Why the fuck would the Jedi even care to learn about their techniques and their secret powers if they thought they were DEAD? Why would Obi-wan raise his lightsabre at the right time to absorb Dooku's FL, especially if he wouldn't know about those 'Sith' powers, or know how to combat them?

THAT's when Vegere's crap begins to heavily contradict the movies, and George Lucas himself. Which is why it no longer becomes a philisophical discussion about intent but a specific power actually being of the Dark or Light side of the force.

Vergere doesn't contradict George Lucas, all the discussion on 'intent' does is provide a different view on the matter, a less black and white view. Who cares what GL said in a commentary? I'm more interested in what he wrote in the script. We see, in-universe, Yoda throw some FL at Dooku. We hear, out of universe, a contradictory statement. Sorry, but I'm going with the films.