Sheer Raw Speed

[Pine Tree]

One basic fact that has been overlooked is the gargantuan difference in speed between star wars ships and their trek counterparts. If you watch a couple scenes in the star wars movies with a ruler and stopwatch you can determine that the average speed of a star wars fighter is about 2 kps (kilometers per second) (to do this look at the trench attack scene in ep 4 and the scene inside the death star, in both of those cases I timed the missle's distance, about 1 km, and the time it took to cover that distance.) Star Trek engines can push the Enterprise to 75% of the speed of light. At even 1/4 light speed the Enterprise or fighters like seen in Insurrection could fly circles around an x-wing much less an SD. They could also outrun proton torps, even blaster bolts. (They must be slow if a jedi can see them and deflect them with a lightsaber)

[Ghost Rider]

So when the Definat attacked the Lakota it was only doing about 100 km per hour?

Love your scaling method...please elucidate how this means anything given your validation is you and ruler?

[Darth Wong]

... you can determine that the average speed of a star wars fighter is about 2 kps (kilometers per second)

So you figure it took them more than two days to circumnavigate around the gas giant Yavin to attack the Death Star when it appeared in system?

You're either a troll or the dumbest shit we've seen here since Roy J. Lores.

[Batman]

So when the Definat attacked the Lakota it was only doing about 100 km per hour?
Love your scaling method...please elucidate how this means anything given your validation is you and ruler?

I vote we let him dig his own grave. It's been ages since we had a really ignorant Trektard here. It may be boring beyond believe for you, but amateurs like me can certainly use the practice...

[Darth Yoshi]

You're assuming that the camera is static.

[consequences]

You know, people like you are the reason Embarassment Ninjas are collecting unemployment.

Unfortunately, Ghost Rider has already destroyed your silliness, although I will also point out the speeds of the various fleets attacking DS9, and ask you to consider the ramifications of attempting near light speeds near an object that is stationary relative to you, and how conducive that is likely to be to your lifespan.

[consequences]

... you can determine that the average speed of a star wars fighter is about 2 kps (kilometers per second)

So you figure it took them more than two days to circumnavigate around the gas giant Yavin to attack the Death Star when it appeared in system?

You're either a troll or the dumbest shit we've seen here since Roy J. Lores.

Now now, he was able to log into the forum, and he's been here longer, technically Roy should be the dumbest shit not quite seen here since him.

[AnimeJet]

This is probably the funniest thing i've seen all day.. aside from someone giving their girlfriend the angry pirate.

[Techno_Union]

Now that's just funny. Seriously funny. Didn't some other trekkie make an argument like this by saying warp was faster because of the stars passing on the screen?

[Mad]

One basic fact that has been overlooked is the gargantuan difference in speed between star wars ships and their trek counterparts. If you watch a couple scenes in the star wars movies with a ruler and stopwatch you can determine that the average speed of a star wars fighter is about 2 kps (kilometers per second) (to do this look at the trench attack scene in ep 4 and the scene inside the death star, in both of those cases I timed the missle's distance, about 1 km, and the time it took to cover that distance.)

So the speed of fighters flying in a cramped trench around a moving Death Star somehow demonstrates their average combat speed?

Fine. I'll use the Enterprise's ramming attack at the end of Nemesis for average Star Trek combat speed. It was, after all, a full-out ramming attack... (And then there's the Scimitar's full reverse...)

Star Trek engines can push the Enterprise to 75% of the speed of light. At even 1/4 light speed the Enterprise or fighters like seen in Insurrection could fly circles around an x-wing much less an SD. They could also outrun proton torps, even blaster bolts. (They must be slow if a jedi can see them and deflect them with a lightsaber)

Where was this great 75% of light speed seen in Voyager: Endgame when Voyager was rushing through the transwarp tunnel? Oh, it wasn't going full out because they didn't want to crash? But, somehow, the fighters in the trench of the Death Star were going as fast as possible, despite the fact that doing so will, y'know, make crashing a lot easier (especially if the Death Star decides to change its velocity or something)? I don't think so.

[Cromag]

I wonder if it meant to go by a screen name that also sums up its IQ?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

This is probably the funniest thing i've seen all day.. aside from someone giving their girlfriend the angry pirate.

What's the angry pirate?

[AnimeJet]

This is probably the funniest thing i've seen all day.. aside from someone giving their girlfriend the angry pirate.

What's the angry pirate?

"Girl is giving you blowjob but you tell her you don't want to finish her mouth (play the nice guy angle). Instead, you hold her head close as you finish in her eye (right eye preferable). As she stumbling around like a drunken hobo, you kick her in the shins really hard. As you're running away, peek over your left shoulder. If you've done everything right, you should see an angry pirate!"

[Patrick Degan]

I see we're entertaining a new guest idiot. Not even an original one at that. Pity his .75c figure comes entirely from a noncanon source and has never been observed in any single television episode or film.

[SirNitram]

So we should trust a completely worthless source for Trek, but go to the screen for Wars? Another troll rears it's head.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think that we should let Trekdestroyer prove himself by debating the Pine Tree. If he does a good job, he'll earn my respect. But he has to be careful to debate rationally.
Two men enter, one man leaves!



Pine Tree? WTF? Did you go to Stanfurd or something?

[Howedar]

Unless he's made some other dumbass posts elsewhere that I've not seen, I think calling this one a troll is a little much. I'd be the first to admit that I started from such humble beginnings as reading the TM and such.

If he doesn't learn, then call him a troll. Right now he could just be badly misinformed.

[Utsanomiko]

If he's simply badly misinformed, then he's really dense and blindly persistent about it, too. He posted the exact same kind of unsupported, ignorant crap in two other threads within a mere 20 minutes.

Pretty uninspiring shlop overall, but this is golden:

They could also outrun proton torps, even blaster bolts. (They must be slow if a jedi can see them and deflect them with a lightsaber)

Emphasis mine, naturally.
Heaven forbid if one were to think Jedi block blaster bolts because they use the force to predict where the bolts are going to be and then swing their lightsaber into place before the bolts are fire.

Because, you know, the movies say (and show) Jedi are able to use the force to predict things and you can see them swing before the bolts are fired.

How can someone not get that? Not stupidly botching up numbers or logical comparisions is one thing, but dammit you'd think even a six-year old would have the common sense and reasoning skills to watch a Jedi in action and not think 'gee, the guy with special powers must be able to hit them blasters cuz they be so darn slow'.

[Chris OFarrell]

I see we're entertaining a new guest idiot. Not even an original one at that. Pity his .75c figure comes entirely from a noncanon source and has never been observed in any single television episode or film.

Actualy speeds equal to or greater then that have been observed in Trek at impulse, but I'm not gona help this guy

[DaveJB]

Well, that figure's easily disproved by the fact that in TSFS, the E-Nil took about a minute and a half to clear spacedock under 1/4 impulse (which, going by his figures would be about 0.19c). Using that speed, Spacedock would have to be pretty damn big for the E-Nil to need that much time!

[Sarevok]

Star Trek engines can push the Enterprise to 75% of the speed of light.

Source ? Full impulse is only 0.25 C IIRC.

At even 1/4 light speed the Enterprise or fighters like seen in Insurrection could fly circles around an x-wing much less an SD.

Relative speed is everything. In combat Trek ships fly at relative speeds of only several hundred meters per second which is not much

They could also outrun proton torps, even blaster bolts.

Trek ships are not fast enough to evade turbolaser bolts.

They must be slow if a jedi can see them and deflect them with a lightsaber

Jedi have precognition.

[DaveJB]

Actually, I'll define how "pretty damn big" it'd have to be.

0.19c = 56,960 KM/S

Time taken (IIRC) = 90 seconds

56,960 * 90 = 5.13E6KM

So, are you seriously going to claim that the radius of Spacedock is 5.13 million KM?

[Pine Tree]

I will answer your comments here: Hear me out, then respond logically

The point about the static/moving camera is a good one, but if you watch the scene inside the death star core that is not an issue because I am calculating the speed of the missle here, the the range between the X-wing piloted by Wedge Antilles and the support tower is about 1 km. Even being extrmely generous (and unrealistic) and saying that the distance is 100 km (think about total diameter of death star here) That is still only 200 kps speed for a missle, which is one speed only, and that is being GENEROUS. (Missile flight time is about .5 seconds, watch the movie if you disagree.
I will admit that the x-wing trench scenario is flawed because the camera could have been moving.
As to you question about the validity of my sources, here they are:
The Star Trek technical manual, which if not canon is close because it was written by the technical directors for the series.
The second source is pure canon, episode (Best of both worlds part II) Where the flight time was about 42 minutes from jupiter to earth. You can do the math yourself in five minutes with planetary distances available off the net. The calculations yield a speed of about .9c (c baing the speed of light) that is pure unreffutable canon from what was voted the best star trek episode of all time.

Also whatever nitwit said that Luke was not going down the trench at full throttle is wrong because luke said "Lets go in at full throttle, that ought to keep those fighters of our backs" Sorry if I got a couple words wrong, but the gist is the same.[/i]

[Connor MacLeod]

They took no more than 30 minutes to cross between Yavin IV and the Death Star (which, given the fact they have to traverse around the Yavin Gas giant, gives a distance of around 200,000-400,000 km), gives a MINIMUM average velocity of ~112 km/s - orders of magnitude faster htan you claimed. If we factor in official sources (Novelizations liek Tyrant's Test, Star by Star, Heir to the Empire, etc.) we know factually they can accelerate up to near-c velocities (parrticularily in Star by Star - even FIGHTERS can do this. What's more, they can fight at those velocities.) And as already pointed out, you ALREADY infer a "top speed" from a situation close to the surfacec of the Death Star (close enough to qualify as an atmospheric/ground attack situation rather than a pure space battle) - in such situations you WANT to travel more slowly, especially since your sensors are jammed and the Death Star is impeding your manuverability (Ref: ANH novelization - whichi s canon by the way). Using that as a blanket "upper limit" on speed is foolish.

That said, your logic is absurd to the point of hilarity. There is no "top speed" in space other than the speed of light - given enough fuel/power and time, any ship could potentially reach near-c (thus any "top speed" claims are ludicrous.). What matters is ACCELERATION, not speed. Star Wars ships canonically have accelerations in the thousands of gees range (ANH, ROTJ, AOTC - supported by the AOTC ICS and NEGV&V). IIRC the ST technical manual (if we followed your logic and considered it viable) indicates a top acceleration of around ~1000 gees.

And if we bring FTL into it, SW ships are FASTER still.

[Darth Wong]

Hey Pine Fucker, here's 2 points:

1) You obviously think that the instant you hit full throttle, regardless of the environment, you will achieve your maximum possible velocity. This is mind-bogglingly stupid; do you have no comprehension of acceleration vs velocity?

2) Given that large fractional-impulse accelerations are observed to be relatively low in the movies, and below-1 warp factors can be used for sublight interplanetary travel, you are mixing apples and oranges by assuming that interplanetary travel times are relevant to combat accelerations.

And finally, I note that you completely ignored my point about the X-wings' travel time around Yavin in ANH. You are obviously one of those idiots who insists on using totally different standards for SW vs ST: travel times for ST, combat speeds in cluttered environments for SW.

I reiterate: you're either a troll or a moron.