Photon/Quantum Torps kick butt

[Pine Tree]

On a number of occasions (Executor @endor) (proton torps/thermal exhaust shaft) we have seen topedoes go straight through ray shields, these are canon source from the movies, do not question them. Photon/quantum torps could logically do the same thing. The average yeild of a quantum torp is 275 megatons. (Go to http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/photontorpedo.htm to check it out, a piece of outstanding and accurate mathematics where this is calculated) If you don't like that number go to that site and check that guy's math. For comparison's sake the entire US-Soviet nuclear stockpile in 1987 was only 58 times that number, that is a heck of a lot of explosive power all made possible by antimatter, a substance commonly used in star trek but never in Wars. (Antimatter has the highest energy density physically possible, you simply cannot have a greater energy density since it is pure 100% efficent energy-matter conversion, talk to a physicist you know if you disagree with me here.
Now that I have established that the photon torp has a lot of destructive energy, (enough to flatten NYC) lets talk about what happens when it hits a SD. It would go through the ray shielding that deflects turbolasers with ease (ST also has the transphasic torp from the series finale of voyager, phases in and out of phase with normal matter to penetrate even Brog shields) Once it hits the hull, or better yet the main reactor, we have a heavily damaged SD on our hands. I know a SD has at least ten meters of durasteel armor, but a few hits would penetrate even that, a volley of five aimed at the main reactor would probably destroy it, we are talking about county-busting bombs here!

[SirNitram]

This would mean something if those calculations were close to canon in anyway, or if Canon sources(Episode II Incredible CrossSections) didn't place the shielding of the Acclamator troop transport in the Teraton per second range.

[Connor MacLeod]

On a number of occasions (Executor @endor) (proton torps/thermal exhaust shaft) we have seen topedoes go straight through ray shields, these are canon source from the movies, do not question them.

Actually, its discussed in ANH (lasers could not penetrate ray shielding, but proton torpedoes could.) However, you also neglect the obvious fact that the shaft was NOT particle shielded - which is why the proton torpedoes could penetrate. Of course, noone has ever bothered claiming that ray shields actually BLOCK physical projectiles...

This shoudl be fucking obvious to anyone aware of SW canon. I'm just guessing you hope noone would remember particle shielding

Photon/quantum torps could logically do the same thing. The average yeild of a quantum torp is 275 megatons. (Go to http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/photontorpedo.htm to check it out, a piece of outstanding and accurate mathematics where this is calculated) If you don't like that number go to that site and check that guy's math.

No, they collide with the particle shielding and fail to penetrate at all.

For comparison's sake the entire US-Soviet nuclear stockpile in 1987 was only 58 times that number, that is a heck of a lot of explosive power all made possible by antimatter, a substance commonly used in star trek but never in Wars.

They have superior power-generation technology, as evidenced by the Death Star in ANH.

(Antimatter has the highest energy density physically possible, you simply cannot have a greater energy density since it is pure 100% efficent energy-matter conversion, talk to a physicist you know if you disagree with me here.

Nothing is 100% energy efficient, dumbass. I am guessing you have never talked to a physicist

Now that I have established that the photon torp has a lot of destructive energy, (enough to flatten NYC) lets talk about what happens when it hits a SD.

It fails to penetrate the deflectors.

It would go through the ray shielding that deflects turbolasers with ease (ST also has the transphasic torp from the series finale of voyager, phases in and out of phase with normal matter to penetrate even Brog shields)

Say it with me: Particle shielding.

Once it hits the hull, or better yet the main reactor, we have a heavily damaged SD on our hands.

The reactor is covered in armor, dumbass. You have to pierce that armor first - armor that is resistant to those very same turbolasers, incidentally.

And you're still forgetting the particle shielding. You DO know they have shields that block physical projectiles, don't you?

I know a SD has at least ten meters of durasteel armor, but a few hits would penetrate even that, a volley of five aimed at the main reactor would probably destroy it, we are talking about county-busting bombs here!

Of course, ,you do nothing to substantiate your claim that any of this is in fact true.

[Pine Tree]

You are calling Episode II Incredible CrossSections canon?!!! It was written by people with no connection whatsoever to Lucasflim!
Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech) Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?
As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!! To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2. (that equation deals with the equivilancy of matter and energy, when matter and antimatter anhilate the result is 100% efficent matter-energy conversion, unless you deny physics)

[Howedar]

The source you provided takes numbers from the noncanon technical manual.

Though the author's complete and utter failure to adhere to even common sense significant figures (90.5458953968987946834375526278729 megatons? Come the fuck on) casts some serious doubt on validity of his analysis.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You are calling Episode II Incredible CrossSections canon?!!! It was written by people with no connection whatsoever to Lucasflim!
Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech) Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?
As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!! To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2. (that equation deals with the equivilancy of matter and energy, when matter and antimatter anhilate the result is 100% efficent matter-energy conversion, unless you deny physics)

Stop now. ICS II was written by people with connections to Lucasfilm, and it falls into the canon heiarchy.

You need to leave this board do some research on SW not just ST before you come into a STvsSW message board. Otherwise, you'll be nothing more than a troll...which is probably too late.

[Connor MacLeod]

You are calling Episode II Incredible CrossSections canon?!!! It was written by people with no connection whatsoever to Lucasflim!

The DK cross sections books are licensed products. Moreover they've been used as references by people on the movie sets, and are APPROVED by LUCASFILM. If they were not, what DK is doing would be illegal.

Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech)

That's merely a secondary benef it of the technology. They also block projectiles (thats why particle shields have to be lowered before objects can pass through - this is demonstrated in Courtship of Princess Leia, when the particle shields are 50 meters ahead of the Falcon, and are dropped in a fraction of a second to let missiles through.)

Besides, the canon ANH novelization would trump that allegation anyhow, even if it weren't a distortion of the actual reference.

Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?

ROFLMAO. You just cited the EGW&T as a source, which is official. Contradicting yourself is bad.

As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!!

As is this site and SWTC. What's your point?

To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2. (that equation deals with the equivilancy of matter and energy, when matter and antimatter anhilate the result is 100% efficent matter-energy conversion, unless you deny physics)

No, I simply point out that NO PROCESS is 100% efficient. 100% efficiency is impossible to achieve since some energgy is inevitably lost or wasted in any process. (something discussed under the photorp entry on Mike's site, BTW - further proof you didn't read the website at all.)

The fact that you continue to insist that you can have 100% efficiency only demonstrates that you are the one denying "physics"

[Pine Tree]

The 3kg of antimatter is found in the star trek technical manual which is written by the same guys who helped create the TNG series, thats canon enough for me, the rest (energy released by antimatter) is math you could check yourself if you have graduated high school physics

[Darth Wong]

The 3kg of antimatter is found in the star trek technical manual which is written by the same guys who helped create the TNG series, thats canon enough for me, the rest (energy released by antimatter) is math you could check yourself if you have graduated high school physics

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

The TM figure is 1.5kg, not 3kg. Moreover, the TNG TM is not canon and your personal whining won't change that. And finally, you are assuming 100% efficiency, which is stupid. In fact, the majority of superheated antimatter and matter will not react, because gases are non-collisional at high temperatures. For plasmas, the non-collisional fraction can exceed 99%. So unless you have an actual canon efficiency figure, you're full of shit.

[Howedar]

The 3kg of antimatter is found in the star trek technical manual which is written by the same guys who helped create the TNG series, thats canon enough for me, the rest (energy released by antimatter) is math you could check yourself if you have graduated high school physics

It's not canon enough for Paramount, the holder of all Star Trek intellectual property.

As for graduating high school physics, I'm sure that's a great aspiration of yours that you project onto others, but you would do well to remember that there are a goodly number of people on this board who are scientistis and engineers, and a great deal more studying the fields in college.

[XaLEv]

(Go to http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/photontorpedo.htm to check it out, a piece of outstanding and accurate mathematics where this is calculated)

Last time I checked, there were approximately 4.2e15 joules in one megaton, not 2.977e15, as he says.

[Praxis]

On a number of occasions (Executor @endor) (proton torps/thermal exhaust shaft) we have seen topedoes go straight through ray shields, these are canon source from the movies, do not question them.

ROFL.

1) Executer@Endor? So you're telling me that after an entire fleet bombards a ship and takes down its shields, and a couple A-wings blow up a little dome with torpedoes, that means the torpedoes went through the downed shields?

2) Well, duh, the exhaust pipe couldn't have particle shielding or it'd hold the exhaust in It doesn't mean all SW ships have only ray shields- the Executer had 'deflector shields'.

Photon/quantum torps could logically do the same thing.

Sure, a photon could go through the ray shields on the death star and smack into the surface (being too big for the port). They would hardly do ANYTHING to a ship.

The average yeild of a quantum torp is 275 megatons. (Go to http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/photontorpedo.htm to check it out, a piece of outstanding and accurate mathematics where this is calculated) If you don't like that number go to that site and check that guy's math. For comparison's sake the entire US-Soviet nuclear stockpile in 1987 was only 58 times that number, that is a heck of a lot of explosive power all made possible by antimatter, a substance commonly used in star trek but never in Wars. (Antimatter has the highest energy density physically possible, you simply cannot have a greater energy density since it is pure 100% efficent energy-matter conversion, talk to a physicist you know if you disagree with me here.

Heard of hypermatter? It's what Star Wars uses...we really don't know what it is, but if it is, say, a multidimensional power source, it could theoretically generate more than antimatter.
Turbolasers are more powerful...
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Beam2.html

Now that I have established that the photon torp has a lot of destructive energy, (enough to flatten NYC) lets talk about what happens when it hits a SD. It would go through the ray shielding that deflects turbolasers with ease (ST also has the transphasic torp from the series finale of voyager, phases in and out of phase with normal matter to penetrate even Brog shields)

That's right, it'd go right through the ray shielding and hit the particle shielding!

Once it hits the hull, or better yet the main reactor, we have a heavily damaged SD on our hands. I know a SD has at least ten meters of durasteel armor, but a few hits would penetrate even that, a volley of five aimed at the main reactor would probably destroy it, we are talking about county-busting bombs here!

Photon torpedo hits shields. ISD captain wonders, "What was that little bump?" Officer replies, "Sir, a low megaton range torpedo impacted us from a small ship." "Well, fire one turbolaser shot as a warning." "Sir, the shot destroyed the enemy ship!" "Oops."

[Praxis]

You are calling Episode II Incredible CrossSections canon?!!! It was written by people with no connection whatsoever to Lucasflim!
Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech) Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?
As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!! To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2. (that equation deals with the equivilancy of matter and energy, when matter and antimatter anhilate the result is 100% efficent matter-energy conversion, unless you deny physics)

It has been officially pronounced canon by LucasFilm, and BTW the author was taken to their HQ and shown behind the scenes scematics and models and worked with their team.

[Master of Ossus]

You are calling Episode II Incredible CrossSections canon?!!! It was written by people with no connection whatsoever to Lucasflim!

1. Appeal to authority fallacy. Regardless of whether or not anyone has a relation with anything, the fact of the matter is that a company can dub something to be canon.
2. Curtis Saxton DOES have a connection with LucasFilm.
3. Refute the following quote: "These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licencees as reference guides and would even become useful manuals at Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II."

Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech)

That's been clearly refuted by other sources, but is irrelevant. Regardless of the exact operating mechanism, the fact of the matter is that your nonsensical dismissal of their observed CAPABILITIES does not bode well for your argument.

Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?

Obviously, since they've been excessively discussed in canon and official texts.

As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!!

1. The site's sources were flawed.
2. The site's validity is questionable by its ludicrous rejection of significant figures.

To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2. (that equation deals with the equivilancy of matter and energy, when matter and antimatter anhilate the result is 100% efficent matter-energy conversion, unless you deny physics)

Who gives a flying fuck? The point is that the author clearly ignores numerous physical principles in drawing his flawed conclusion.

[Kuja]

Also the particle shields, from the material I have read merely reinforce the natural strength of the hull (SW guide to weps and tech) Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?

Remember when lil' Anakin crashed in the control ship in Episode 1 and had to restart his fighter? And when the shields came on, they snapped a battledroid in half?


Particle shields. Bitch.

[Praxis]

What about asteroid impacts in TESB?

Either the Imperial gunners are the best ever and they hit EVERY asteroid, or the shields took quite a few hits.

Remember the Falcon took several small asteroid whacks...

Not only that, but watch Return of the Jedi. A TIE Interceptor smacks into the home one, the explosion scatters across the surface, and Home One is unscathed.

[Darth Wong]

Particle shields do not once appear in a Movie, do they even exist?

I take it you missed the shield that had to be opened in order to let the Tydirium fly through and land on Endor in ROTJ. It only constituted the entire basis of the plot for the second half of the whole movie, I can see why you might blink and miss it ...

As for the site I have quoted, no it was not canon, but is instead based on solid irrefutable mathematics, and physics!!

"Irrefutable" in the judgement of someone who had to be reminded of the difference between velocity and acceleration?

To say that anti-matter does not have that energy density is to refute E=mc^2.

I guess you're just too fucking stupid to recognize the distinction between disputing an efficiency claim and disputing a reaction energy claim.

[Sarevok]

On a number of occasions (Executor @endor) (proton torps/thermal exhaust shaft) we have seen topedoes go straight through ray shields, these are canon source from the movies, do not question them.

Only the Death Star exhaust port which had only ray shielding. Normal shields include particle shieldings which stop torpedoes.

Photon/quantum torps could logically do the same thing.

Particle shields would stop them.

The average yeild of a quantum torp is 275 megatons.

Source ? The average yield is far less than that. In "Pegasus" the entire torpedo complenent of the Enterprise was required to fragment a 2 KM asteriod.

For comparison's sake the entire US-Soviet nuclear stockpile in 1987 was only 58 times that number, that is a heck of a lot of explosive power all made possible by antimatter, a substance commonly used in star trek but never in Wars.

They have hypermatter which is more powerful.

Antimatter has the highest energy density physically possible, you simply cannot have a greater energy density since it is pure 100% efficent energy-matter conversion

Hypermatter is more powerful as the incredible energy density achieved by the Death Star and ISD's show.

Now that I have established that the photon torp has a lot of destructive energy, (enough to flatten NYC)

An ISD could melt the crust of en entire planet which is more impressive than flattening New York.

It would go through the ray shielding that deflects turbolasers with ease

Particle shields would stop it.

we are talking about county-busting bombs here

We aret talking about 200 gigaton turbolasers here.

[Praxis]

According to the tech manuals, a photon torpedo has 1.5 kg of antimatter, and it must obviously have 1.5 kg of matter as well to react with.

Calculate E=mc^2 using 3 for M, and you get 64 megatons max yield for a photon torpedo.

That's ASSUMING that EVERY SINGLE ATOM of antimatter hits EVERY SINGLE ATOM of matter, 100% efficiency, which is so unlikely it's almost impossible.

The TM also states the torpedoes have 74% efficiency!

Are you capable of doing basic math? 64 x .74 = 47.36 megatons.

However, when antimatter explodes, it is uncontrolled, and expands spherically. Therefore if a torpedo hit a ship, at most, HALF THE EXPLOSION would impact the shields and the other half would be thrown away from the target.

So maximum EFFECTIVE yield, or the amount of damage that will actually hit the enemy, is 47.36 divided by two, or 23.68 megatons.

A quantum torpedo does 3 times the damage of a photon torpedo according to the TM. That means a MAXIMUM THEORETICAL YIELD of 192 megatons- an average actual yield of 142.08 megatons- and an EFFECTIVE yield of 71.04 megatons.


Sure, the maximum will be 192 megatons...but on average, only 71.04 megatons will actually hit the enemy ship, going by the tech manual.

Those calculations on that page you referred to, only calculated maximum theoretical yields. To help you understand the difference, I will use a real life example. Two, in fact.

The third biggest supercomputer cluster in the world at Virginia Tech has a maximum theoretical performance of 15 teraflops, or 15 trillion calculations per second. HOWEVER, for a sustained time, it averages only 9 teraflops, or 9 trillion calculations per second.

Another example is wireless G. The 802.11g wireless standard (the kind for your laptop that you might use in starbucks) has a maximum theoretical yield of 54 megabits per second. HOWEVER, even next to the router it's rare to get more than 25 megabits per second, and from any significant distance it drops below 20 quickly.

The more common 802.11b standard has a maximum theoretical yield of 11 MBPS, but you usually only get 4.5 when you're really close to the router.

Hope this helps you understand what we're talking about

[wautd]

40 MT, 64MT, 192MT....

Does it matter at SW shields? I dont think so

[The Nomad]

(Antimatter has the highest energy density physically possible, you simply cannot have a greater energy density since it is pure 100% efficent energy-matter conversion, talk to a physicist you know if you disagree with me here.

Bullshit. Black holes have an even higher energy density, wether matter or AM. Try again asshat.

[tjhairball]

Theoretically speaking, the energy a black hole can provide is no more than the energy (i.e., matter) contained within the black hole (in the event of a decay or annihilation method) or the energy input into the black hole (and the subsequent extracting of gravitational energy from it.)

The latter technique, by far the easier to envision, produces no more energy than would be produced by annihilating the same matter that is input into the black hole (no more than half, actually). Outputs vary according to the size of the black hole in question. More exotic methods, based on somehow extracting energy from a black hole, can yield at most the same amount of energy within the black hole - i.e., annihilating the energy contained within the black hole.

The various methods for extracting energy directly from a black hole - mostly rather exotic and extremely tricky to manage within the confines of a small (in astrophysical terms) warship - can extract at most energy equivalent to the mass of the black hole at the theoretical extreme of techniques hitherto unimagined by any familiar physicist, and in most cases several orders of magnitude less.

In spatial terms, a black hole is indeed very dense with respect to potential energy. In mass terms, a black hole is no more energy dense than antimatter (or any other form of matter.) Antimatter as a fuel has the convenient nature of being easy to handle, relatively, and requiring a highly inexpensive fuel component (normal matter) that releases the same amount of energy.

[The Nomad]

tjhairball : the point was that black holes are extremely compact energy sources . And can hardly be described in terms of "matter" or "antimatter", since both forget their previous states once they enter the BH, leaving only energy...

[tjhairball]

tjhairball : the point was that black holes are extremely compact energy sources . And can hardly be described in terms of "matter" or "antimatter", since both forget their previous states once they enter the BH, leaving only energy...

“Compact” is nice, provided you don’t have to lug it around. “Massive,” is, quite distinctly, a characteristic of all stable black holes, which is not a nice feature to have when you use reaction thrusters (e.g., ion engines) as your main sublight source of mobility, and the mass is most certainly retained within the black hole - and you have to store the external fuel anyway if you’re using an input method, which takes up a good bit of space (on the plus side, you could use practically anything.) If you’re using an exotic extraction method, you need a fairly massive black hole to get a strong power output, and that’s going to still hurt your acceleration (not to mention orbit dynamics for stationkeeping.) It’s going to hurt it just as much as lugging an equivalent energy quantity to normal matter around, which is typically the primary limiting factor for spaceships.

Any ship using a realspace drive system (such as the ion engines the Empire is fond of) and a black hole power plant is going to be very sluggish, and will have a tendancy to implode when violently compromised. You won’t want to keep it close to planets that you care about, since fixing up their orbital dynamics afterward is going to be a pain, and because of the relative difficulty of moving black holes around in real space, you’ll probably want to pretty much keep it in deep space and mostly move it around with its hyperdrive, leaving its sluggish and highly fuel intensive sublight maneuvers for emergencies (combat) and trying to keep a stable orbit of some sort when you aren’t in combat.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Well, the Empire has inertial damping and gravity control technology sufficient to make the jump to lightspeed feel like nothing, maybe that would help with containing the black hole?