Sheer Raw Speed

[Connor MacLeod]

relatavistic velocities aren't even neccesarily all that useful in combat, anyhow. At best, all this means is that the ST ship might EVENTUALLY go fast enough to get away (assuming the SW ship doesn't let them accelerate away, wait until they get far enough away, then microjump in close again and blast them to pieces.)

Of course, this is where Pine Tree reiterates the whole "ST ships can outrun proton torpedoes/energy bolts ), isnt it?

[Connor MacLeod]

Maybe Pine Tree can explain how the bolts can move so slowly as he "claims", yet not experiencee any noticable dorp in gravity. (of course, if he were as aware of canon as he thought, he might notice that the glowing pulse is not a valid indicator of bolt speed - and supported by official evidence.) Of course, the fact he's attempting to apply hand weaponry to fighter/capital ship weaponry is hilarious in and of itself, especially in light of the fact Jedi are known to possesss precognition (which is why they can deflect blaster bolts.. not that he would understand this.)

But to humor him, we know from ANH that a proton torpedo can accelerate to 72,000 gees minimum. A blaster bolt should be at LEAST as fast, if not substantially faster. They accelerate faster than a ST ship. So he loses again.

[Pine Tree]

I did not ever intend for the ST ships to use their max speed in combat, apologies if I gave that impression. Yet I derived all speeds from the missles pictured, thus you cannot say that travel speeds would be faster, unless you say that travel speeds outrun proton torps!

Good point about the combat accelerations, but look at this scenario: There is a two-planet system with a SW taskforce orbiting the planet closer to the sun. High travel speeds means that Trek forces could get to the planet and do their work in the half hour or so that it would the SW task force to reach the other planet for defense. Also Warp works within planetary gravity wells, does hyperspace? Additionally what about nav comp calculation times seen in Falcon's flight from mos eisley, St ships can change course in warp and require almost no calculation time. (I have seen a course plotted and engaged in less than five seconds)
Finally I would appreciate fewer insults, I much prefer logical and endless rebuttals to insults

[Howedar]

Please provide canon reference for these .75c impulse speeds.

[Connor MacLeod]

I did not ever intend for the ST ships to use their max speed in combat, apologies if I gave that impression. Yet I derived all speeds from the missles pictured, thus you cannot say that travel speeds would be faster, unless you say that travel speeds outrun proton torps!

Good point about the combat accelerations, but look at this scenario: There is a two-planet system with a SW taskforce orbiting the planet closer to the sun. High travel speeds means that Trek forces could get to the planet and do their work in the half hour or so that it would the SW task force to reach the other planet for defense.

Microjump in close to the planet. That's what Hyperdrive is for.

Also Warp works within planetary gravity wells, does hyperspace?

Yep. This has been demonstrated in Dark Empire, among others. Its just not a preferred tactic.

Additionally what about nav comp calculation times seen in Falcon's flight from mos eisley, St ships can change course in warp and require almost no calculation time.

Dark Empire, tales of the bounty hunters, and Jedi Council acts of War also show this ability (you can hyperdrive around a planet, ,in fact.)

(I have seen a course plotted and engaged in less than five seconds)

Dark Empire demonstrated that a course change can be made in the space of a short conversation (a handful of seconds at best).

By the way, shouldn't you cite a source when making a claim? I do recall there ARE claims that manuvering while at warp is difficult if not impossible as well (Tom Paris in voyager made a comment to that effect I believe.)

Finally I would appreciate fewer insults, I much prefer logical and endless rebuttals to insults

Style over substance fallacy. Besides which, you apparently did not A.) read the website, or b.) bother doing your research before annoying us, so why should anyone be polite to you. (I notice you also called us "biased fools" as well.. so your claims seem vageuly hypocritical.)

[Howedar]

"Faster than light, no left or right" was Paris' statement IIRC.

[Darth Wong]

I did not ever intend for the ST ships to use their max speed in combat, apologies if I gave that impression. Yet I derived all speeds from the missles pictured, thus you cannot say that travel speeds would be faster, unless you say that travel speeds outrun proton torps!

The point about acceleration vs velocity obviously went over your head. And you also ignored the various canon examples of very high travel velocities in SW that were provided.

Good point about the combat accelerations, but look at this scenario: There is a two-planet system with a SW taskforce orbiting the planet closer to the sun. High travel speeds means that Trek forces could get to the planet and do their work in the half hour or so that it would the SW task force to reach the other planet for defense.

A) You ignored my point about SW long-distance travel speeds being much faster than their combat speeds.
B) You ignore the fact that the Falcon made an interstellar trip without a working hyperdrive.
C) You ignore the fact that a short hyperspace jump would easily give the SW fleet the advantage

Also Warp works within planetary gravity wells, does hyperspace?

Yes, it does. Sorry, yet another pitiful attempt at an argument defeated.

Additionally what about nav comp calculation times seen in Falcon's flight from mos eisley, St ships can change course in warp and require almost no calculation time. (I have seen a course plotted and engaged in less than five seconds)

It's more difficult to plot a jump when you're travelling thousands of times faster, moron. And better nav computers do it faster; the Tydirium did it in seconds.

Finally I would appreciate fewer insults, I much prefer logical and endless rebuttals to insults

You don't deserve better than insults. You have simply ignored most of the key points raised against you; this is a much bigger breach of etiquette than saying "moron".

[Pine Tree]

Which scenes did you get the thousands of gees from? I have the movies right here, so I can check that out.

[Darth Wong]

Which scenes did you get the thousands of gees from? I have the movies right here, so I can check that out.

Read my first post in this thread, asshole. I'm tired of your tactic of ignoring evidence that confounds you.

[Techno_Union]

A little tid bit on Nav calculations, the EGTVV says that the Techno Union ( ) starship that Wat Tambor used can make calculations in a matter of seconds without coordinates before hand.

Also, the EGTVV states many of the speeds for SW ships, granted there are numerous mistakes in this book so your trust in it is your business.

[Alyeska]

Please provide canon reference for these .75c impulse speeds.

(Raises hand) I can do that

[Alyeska]

"Faster than light, no left or right" was Paris' statement IIRC.

You do know that quote is bullshit, right?

[Utsanomiko]

A little tid bit on Nav calculations, the EGTVV says that the Techno Union ( ) starship that Wat Tambor used can make calculations in a matter of seconds without coordinates before hand.

Not to mention the vast distances involved; the Millennium Falcon'a nav computer had an entire ~50,000 light year course to chart, of which the ship would cover in under a day.

That's a pretty damn long distance to travel at such high speeds, so charting it out in well under a minute is rather impressive (especially considering we don't know how efficient the Falcon's non-military computers are at completing tasks, though they had difficulty communicating with 3PO effectively in EP V).

[The Kernel]

"Faster than light, no left or right" was Paris' statement IIRC.

You do know that quote is bullshit, right?

Why? Just because we've seen Star Trek ships turn at warp doesn't mean that it is safe to do so.

[Alyeska]

"Faster than light, no left or right" was Paris' statement IIRC.

You do know that quote is bullshit, right?

Why? Just because we've seen Star Trek ships turn at warp doesn't mean that it is safe to do so.

You just contradicted the quote as well. Besides, we have seen ships make warp manuevers corrections. TNG is full of warp manuevering and the "danger" was never commented on. DS9 also had plenty of warp manuevering. A Runabout that was being pursued by a Jem'Hadar ship managed to slowdown and get behind the Jem'Hadar ship. Hell, Voyager even had the whole Prometheus bit which sure as hell is warp manuevering.

[Darth Wong]

"Faster than light, no left or right" was Paris' statement IIRC.

You do know that quote is bullshit, right?

Why? Just because we've seen Star Trek ships turn at warp doesn't mean that it is safe to do so.

Besides, Pinehead has no problem selectively using one piece of evidence and ignoring others, and refusing to change his aproach; in the face of such unrepentant asshole tactics, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. It's like my policy of rejecting everything past TNG when dealing with RSA fanatics, by applying his approach to canon evenly to both franchises.

[The Kernel]

You just contradicted the quote as well.

No, I'm suggesting that it is a rule of thumb for safe traveling. That doesn't mean no one violates it or that a ship will break apart by doing it. Modern aircraft are speced for very strict weight and climb rates, but that doesn't mean that people can't violate them routinely and not get killed.

Besides, we have seen ships make warp manuevers corrections. TNG is full of warp manuevering

Got some specific examples where you know for sure they were manuvering at warp during non-emergency situations?

and the "danger" was never commented on.

So?

DS9 also had plenty of warp manuevering.

Examples?

A Runabout that was being pursued by a Jem'Hadar ship managed to slowdown and get behind the Jem'Hadar ship.

What episode was this? Besides, you just admited that it was a combat situation where violating safety regulations might have been necessary to surviving, thus it doesn't contradict Voyager.

Hell, Voyager even had the whole Prometheus bit which sure as hell is warp manuevering.

I don't remember specific warp manuvering in "Message in a Bottle", but once again, this was a desperate combat situation.

[DaveJB]

In "Message in a Bottle" the Prometheus split up at warp speeds to allow the Nebula-class through, then opened fire on it. Since the sections travelled on relatively straight paths when splitting, that isn't a great deal of evidence.

[Alyeska]

The TNG episode where the alien entities inflitrated Starfleet headquarters had the Enterprise change vector in warp and no danger was specified.

[SirNitram]

The 'warp maneuvering' problem seems to be for hard turns, not gradual vector changes.

[Pine Tree]

The counterarguements here can be disproved, and I will try to do that!
The speed of x-wings rounding the planet yavin in ANH does not affect the actual speed they are capable of. Think of the space shuttle, it orbits the earth every ninety minutes, without using any thrust, the x-wings simply used yavin's gravity to boost their speed. As to the point about "top speed" you are absolutely right, I admit my error, there is no "top speed" however I would like to see just where you got the "thousands of gees" acceleration figure from. Also, I dare say that in the battle of endor normal non-jedi pilots were able to avoid laser blasts. If the blasts traveled at c then any good shot would hit its target, that was not always the case, therefore the laser cannon blasts traveled slower than light, otherwise the battle would have been much different than what we saw. Therefore I can conclude that the combat speeds of fighters are much less than in Star Trek. Additionally, what is hypermatter (physical properties etc, does it even exist?)

[Ghost Rider]

The counterarguements here can be disproved, and I will try to do that!
The speed of x-wings rounding the planet yavin in ANH does not affect the actual speed they are capable of. Think of the space shuttle, it orbits the earth every ninety minutes, without using any thrust, the x-wings simply used yavin's gravity to boost their speed.

Right, so they slingshoted because hey the other time they had no planet would disprove your statement(let's try Endor, most of AoTC...etc)...good to see your grasp of physics is firm and unwavering

As to the point about "top speed" you are absolutely right, I admit my error, there is no "top speed" however I would like to see just where you got the "thousands of gees" acceleration figure from. Also, I dare say that in the battle of endor normal non-jedi pilots were able to avoid laser blasts. If the blasts traveled at c then any good shot would hit its target, that was not always the case, therefore the laser cannon blasts traveled slower than light, otherwise the battle would have been much different than what we saw. Therefore I can conclude that the combat speeds of fighters are much less than in Star Trek. Additionally, what is hypermatter (physical properties etc, does it even exist?)

Gotcha...so the avoiding of laser blast...because what again...oh wait are you saying our pilots are capable of of avoiding bullets ?

Oh wait, is it because the target is in constant motion while the shots are to a static area?

Great a conculsion but no proof of the conclusion except bluster.

[Master of Ossus]

The counterarguements here can be disproved, and I will try to do that!
The speed of x-wings rounding the planet yavin in ANH does not affect the actual speed they are capable of.

Why the fuck not? BTW, you are STILL using this ridiculous "speed" measurement, when it's been repeatedly pointed out to you that speed means very little in this context.

Think of the space shuttle, it orbits the earth every ninety minutes, without using any thrust, the x-wings simply used yavin's gravity to boost their speed.

And the planet's gravity, without even having the X-wings in a straight-line towards the planet, accelerated them to over a hundred kilometers/second?

Do you come up with these things yourself, or do they have to be given to you?

As to the point about "top speed" you are absolutely right, I admit my error, there is no "top speed" however I would like to see just where you got the "thousands of gees" acceleration figure from.

Fool. It is trivially simple to calculate acceleration figures from a velocity and an amount of time spent accelerating (hint: the relationship between acceleration and velocity is the same as the one between velocity and position).

Also, I dare say that in the battle of endor normal non-jedi pilots were able to avoid laser blasts.

Where did you see a pilot see a shot headed towards him, then alter his course in response to the external stimulus?

If the blasts traveled at c then any good shot would hit its target, that was not always the case, therefore the laser cannon blasts traveled slower than light, otherwise the battle would have been much different than what we saw.

Can you seriously be this stupid?

1. Once again your assumptions are erroneous. The weapons fire observed narrowly missing starfighters might NOT have been perfectly aimed due to the combat conditions and maneuverability of the starfighters.

2. The bolts themselves do not always travel at the speed of light, but there is an invisible component of the beam which DOES. This phenomena has been discussed repeatedly both on this site and elsewhere.

Therefore I can conclude that the combat speeds of fighters are much less than in Star Trek.

*sighs*

Additionally, what is hypermatter (physical properties etc, does it even exist?)

Hypermatter's properties are unknown, aside from the fact that it is inordinately good at storing energy.

[Pine Tree]

In the face of massive evidence I retract my statement about the speed of fighters based on movie observations, I just want to know where you get this data on the acceleration capabilities of SW ships!

[Ghost Rider]

In the face of massive evidence I retract my statement about the speed of fighters based on movie observations, I just want to know where you get this data on the acceleration capabilities of SW ships!

It's called scaling dumbfuck.

But here goes.

The DS1 is such and such size, you scale this to Yavin(through pictures, some people here can even provide size to an incredible degree), then you account for the the time the fighters take to reach around said object.

Thus you have

Distance

AND

Time


Then LO!

You can acquire Acceleration just like any half wit high schooler.