US tortured Afghanistan detainees

[Plekhanov]

Guardian

US tortured Afghanistan detainees

Duncan Campbell and Suzanne Goldenberg
Wednesday June 23, 2004
The Guardian

Detainees held in Afghanistan by US troops have been routinely tortured and humiliated as part of the interrogation process in the same way as those in Iraq, a Guardian investigation has found.
Five detainees have died in custody, three of them in suspicious circumstances, and survivors have told stories of beatings, strippings, hoodings and sleep deprivation.

The nature of the alleged abuse indicates that what happened at Abu Ghraib was part of a pattern of interrogation that has been common practice since the invasion of Afghanistan.

"The abuses in Afghanistan were no less egregious than at Abu Ghraib, but because there were no photographs - at least to our present knowledge - they have not received enough attention," Senator Patrick Leahy, the Democratic member of the Senate subcommittee on foreign operations, told the Guardian.

"Prisoners in Afghanistan were subjected to cruel and degrading treatment, and some died from it. These abuses were part of a wider pattern stemming from a White House attitude that 'anything goes' in the war against terrorism, even if it crosses the line of illegality."

Syed Nabi Siddiqi, a former police officer, said he had been beaten and stripped. "They took off my uniform. I showed them my identity card from the government of President Karsai. Then they asked me which of those animals - they made the noise of goats, sheep, dogs, cows - have you had sexual activities with?"

A second detainee, Noor Aghah, said he had been forced to drink bottle after bottle of water during his interrogation.

Another prisoner, Wazir Muhammad, was held for nearly two years, firstly in Afghanistan and then in Guantánamo Bay. "At the end of my time in Guantánamo, I had to sign a paper saying I had been captured in battle which was not true," he said. "I was stopped when I was in my taxi with four passengers. But they told me I would have to spend the rest of my life in Guantánamo if I did not sign it, so I did."

Parts of an investigation into allegations of abuse in custody by Brigadier General Chuck Jacoby are to be made public next month by the head of the US forces in Afghanistan, Lieutenant General David Barno.

Gen Barno said: "I will tell you without hesitation that intelligence procedures have got to be done in accordance with the appropriate standards ... all our forces will treat every detainee here with dignity and respect."

Bagram and the network of US detention centres around Afghanistan have largely avoided scrutiny, yet, according to the coalition forces last week, more than 2,000 people have been detained there since the war.

If true (and if anybody else picks up the story) this should make the brass’s and Rummy’s protests of ignorance even harder to maintain.

[Stormbringer]

You know, given the behaviour of an increasing number of these fuckwads I would find it hard to care if they crucified them and then lit them on fire as street lamps.

[Plekhanov]

Which “fuckwads” would that be exactly afgans, arabs, muslims or just anybody who ends up in an allied prison?

[Knife]

Five detainees have died in custody, three of them in suspicious circumstances, and survivors have told stories of beatings, strippings, hoodings and sleep deprivation.

The suspisious deaths worry me and need investigation. The Beatings need investigations, but the other two really don't bother me much.

[Darth Wong]

The number of prisoners who have died in US custody is unknown, but it is almost certainly higher than the number of US civilians who have been executed in Al-Quaeda custody. So much for the moral high ground.

[Stormbringer]

The number of prisoners who have died in US custody is unknown, but it is almost certainly higher than the number of US civilians who have been executed in Al-Quaeda custody. So much for the moral high ground.

Not for lack of trying on their part, that's for sure. For one thing that seems to be their new MO and it's spread to Afghanistan. So they'll have dug themself a new low soon enough.

And of course the fact that a lot of people are trying to stop the abuse and killings counts for something.

[Plekhanov]

Five detainees have died in custody, three of them in suspicious circumstances, and survivors have told stories of beatings, strippings, hoodings and sleep deprivation.

The suspisious deaths worry me and need investigation. The Beatings need investigations, but the other two really don't bother me much.

If you allow an situation where human rights violations such as sensory and sleep deprivation are permitted aren’t you just creating an environment where beatings and suspicious deaths are more likely?

[Stormbringer]

Which “fuckwads” would that be exactly afgans, arabs, muslims or just anybody who ends up in an allied prison?

Islamic extremists that don't mind killing anyone that doesn't subscribe to their veiws.

[Plekhanov]

Which “fuckwads” would that be exactly afgans, arabs, muslims or just anybody who ends up in an allied prison?

Islamic extremists that don't mind killing anyone that doesn't subscribe to their veiws.

I can’t stand them either but how do we know the guys getting the shit kicked out of them in our jails are extremists?

[Stormbringer]

Which “fuckwads” would that be exactly afgans, arabs, muslims or just anybody who ends up in an allied prison?

Islamic extremists that don't mind killing anyone that doesn't subscribe to their veiws.

I can’t stand them either but how do we know the guys getting the shit kicked out of them in our jails are extremists?

Okay, we sort them then beat the shit out of them.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, we sort them then beat the shit out of them.

Unfortunately, you are "sorting" them based on intel acquired by beating the shit out of them, which means they will rat out their comrades even if they aren't guilty. Torture victims will say anything to make it stop, remember?

[Stormbringer]

Okay, we sort them then beat the shit out of them.

Unfortunately, you are "sorting" them based on intel acquired by beating the shit out of them, which means they will rat out their comrades even if they aren't guilty. Torture victims will say anything to make it stop, remember?

Hence the sorting them before interrogation.




And in case you haven't noticed, I'm not being terribly serious about this.

[Knife]

Five detainees have died in custody, three of them in suspicious circumstances, and survivors have told stories of beatings, strippings, hoodings and sleep deprivation.

The suspisious deaths worry me and need investigation. The Beatings need investigations, but the other two really don't bother me much.

If you allow an situation where human rights violations such as sensory and sleep deprivation are permitted aren’t you just creating an environment where beatings and suspicious deaths are more likely?

*disclaimer* They should stand before the tribunal first, sort them out via GC.

But techniques like sleep deprevation don't exactly equal torture in my eyes. The method was used on me in boot camp as were other humiliating experiences (no, not hazing). Its uncomfortable, and designed to break you emotionally for various reasons. I know that the prisoners are getting it worse than I did, but the theroy is the same. I don't particularly feel sorry for them.

Stupid boyish pranks and the more serious beatings and deaths should be curb stomped and violators should be experiencing their own sleep deprevation while they worry about bubba in the cot next to them.

[Master of Ossus]

The number of prisoners who have died in US custody is unknown, but it is almost certainly higher than the number of US civilians who have been executed in Al-Quaeda custody. So much for the moral high ground.

How are these remotely similar? I understand your point, but it's still a clear false analogy. On the one hand, Al Qaeda operatives who were selected carefully from an array of prisoners taken in Afghanistan and elsewhere are dying, compared to the deliberate murder of people who have done nothing to violate any laws or done anything wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and from the wrong country.

[Darth Wong]

The number of prisoners who have died in US custody is unknown, but it is almost certainly higher than the number of US civilians who have been executed in Al-Quaeda custody. So much for the moral high ground.

How are these remotely similar? I understand your point, but it's still a clear false analogy. On the one hand, Al Qaeda operatives who were selected carefully from an array of prisoners taken in Afghanistan and elsewhere are dying, compared to the deliberate murder of people who have done nothing to violate any laws or done anything wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and from the wrong country.

Oh really? Everyone who died in custody in Iraq or Afghanistan was an "Al-Quaeda operative" now? You have determined this through what means?

[Master of Ossus]

Oh really? Everyone who died in custody in Iraq or Afghanistan was an "Al-Quaeda operative" now? You have determined this through what means?

Mike, you realize that out of over 10,000 individuals detained for questioning who were ACTUALLY INVOLVED in fighting against Americans (ie. captured with weapons, or with groups of Al Qaeda and Taliban soldiers), less than 200 of them were actually sent to Guantanamo Bay, and less than 500 of them were held in other prison camps?

I would be very surprised if everyone in custody in Iraq is an Al Qaeda operative, but I'm sure that the majority of them were either terrorists or operating as terrorists by foregoing the use of military uniforms and such.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, you realize that out of over 10,000 individuals detained for questioning who were ACTUALLY INVOLVED in fighting against Americans (ie. captured with weapons, or with groups of Al Qaeda and Taliban soldiers), less than 200 of them were actually sent to Guantanamo Bay, and less than 500 of them were held in other prison camps?

And this proves that they are all Al-Quaeda operatives ... how?

I would be very surprised if everyone in custody in Iraq is an Al Qaeda operative, but I'm sure that the majority of them were either terrorists or operating as terrorists by foregoing the use of military uniforms and such.

And your evidence for this certainty is ...?

[Master of Ossus]

Mike, you realize that out of over 10,000 individuals detained for questioning who were ACTUALLY INVOLVED in fighting against Americans (ie. captured with weapons, or with groups of Al Qaeda and Taliban soldiers), less than 200 of them were actually sent to Guantanamo Bay, and less than 500 of them were held in other prison camps?

And this proves that they are all Al-Quaeda operatives ... how?

It proves that they committed war crimes more serious than just being civilians involved in combat. The category that officers in the field were dealing with was that they needed to be able to demonstrate that the captured and detained individuals had "extensive knowledge" of Al Qaeda operations. However, Taliban soldiers would have qualified as POW's and could therefore not be sent to Guantanamo Bay or a similar facility. Now, we're looking for a terrorist who has knowledge of Al Qaeda operations in Afghanistan. Three guesses which group they belong to.

I would be very surprised if everyone in custody in Iraq is an Al Qaeda operative, but I'm sure that the majority of them were either terrorists or operating as terrorists by foregoing the use of military uniforms and such.

And your evidence for this certainty is ...?

Are you suggesting that they took a pool of 10,000 random individuals in Iraq and threw a couple of them in prison, even though they had done nothing substantively different from the others? Again, we're looking at a huge pool of arrests, only some of which were sent to detention facilities (though, I confess I'm less well-informed about the methods through which individuals were selected for detainment in Iraq).

[Darth Wong]

It proves that they committed war crimes more serious than just being civilians involved in combat. The category that officers in the field were dealing with was that they needed to be able to demonstrate that the captured and detained individuals had "extensive knowledge" of Al Qaeda operations. However, Taliban soldiers would have qualified as POW's and could therefore not be sent to Guantanamo Bay or a similar facility. Now, we're looking for a terrorist who has knowledge of Al Qaeda operations in Afghanistan. Three guesses which group they belong to.

Ah, so in other words, you're saying that they must all be Al-Quaeda operatives because the US authorities in Afghanistan decided that they were, based on their apparently mystical ability to determine how much the captive knew about Al-Quaeda.

And your evidence for this certainty is ...?

Are you suggesting that they took a pool of 10,000 random individuals in Iraq and threw a couple of them in prison, even though they had done nothing substantively different from the others? Again, we're looking at a huge pool of arrests, only some of which were sent to detention facilities (though, I confess I'm less well-informed about the methods through which individuals were selected for detainment in Iraq).

No, I'm suggesting that they are thrown in prison for being SUSPECTED of having such knowledge. They DO NOT KNOW more than that; if they have certain knowledge of how much the captives know, they would not need to interrogate them, would they?

[Master of Ossus]

Mike, at the absolute least these guys violated the laws regarding military uniforms and combat operations. That's at the absolute least, and that's a war crime for which incarceration is an appropriate action. According to your analogy, having some of these guys die in custody is nearly-equivalent with deliberately murdering a civilian in your custody.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, at the absolute least these guys violated the laws regarding military uniforms and combat operations. That's at the absolute least, and that's a war crime for which incarceration is an appropriate action.

Funny ... invading a foreign country for the purpose of "regime change" without UN sanction is also illegal, yet I don't see anyone agreeing that all US soldiers should be imprisoned.

According to your analogy, having some of these guys die in custody is nearly-equivalent with deliberately murdering a civilian in your custody.

Since both are illegal, yes. What part of this do you not understand? Do you really think that beating a man who is suspected of being a terrorist to death in a US prison is somehow on some elevated moral plane compared to Al-Quaeda beheading a prisoner, particularly when the former has happened more times than the latter?

[Thinkmarble]

Are you suggesting that they took a pool of 10,000 random individuals in Iraq and threw a couple of them in prison, even though they had done nothing substantively different from the others?

Actually, after all I read that is not far from the truth.
The intel of the US forces in Iraq who is and who isn't an terrorist is pretty bad.

One evil terrorists reaps what he has sown.
As of today atleast 37 people die in american custody.

[Sarevok]

You know, given the behaviour of an increasing number of these fuckwads I would find it hard to care if they crucified them and then lit them on fire as street lamps.

But that makes the US no better than the evil enemy they are fighting. The US would lose it's moral highground.

[Skelron]

ALthough you can all follow links I suspect you might not have done, but this article above is in fact the lesser of the two articles to appear in the Guardian today, and I must Curse the thread creator for beating me to it....

More In Depth Information This was the main article as printed in G2 (The smaller extra bit in the Guardian usually containing more indepth analysis on the main stories published in the Paper as well as other stuff, such as articles by Proffesors etc, actually a Excellent read and the main reason I have started to buy the Guardian everyday anyway...)

Note the fact that many of the people arrested and later released who go through this are NEVER charged with anything but that after two years of the abuse at least one man was ready to sign anything to get out and see his family... And so signed that he had been arrested in a firefight, not true he'd been in a Taxi at the time...

Anyway, if it is true then we have a sickening abuse of human rights by the defenders of democracy...

[banquetbear]

Oh really? Everyone who died in custody in Iraq or Afghanistan was an "Al-Quaeda operative" now? You have determined this through what means?

Mike, you realize that out of over 10,000 individuals detained for questioning who were ACTUALLY INVOLVED in fighting against Americans (ie. captured with weapons, or with groups of Al Qaeda and Taliban soldiers), less than 200 of them were actually sent to Guantanamo Bay, and less than 500 of them were held in other prison camps?

I would be very surprised if everyone in custody in Iraq is an Al Qaeda operative, but I'm sure that the majority of them were either terrorists or operating as terrorists by foregoing the use of military uniforms and such.

...ROFL!!! Where do you get your information from? Shall we have a look at who ended up at Guantanamo Bay, shall we?

One prisoner was transferred because he was Arab by birth and had once fought for the Taliban, thereby meeting two key screening criteria. But before the war he had sustained such a massive head injury that he could utter little more than his name and was known by interrogators at Guantanamo Bay as "half-head Bob."

"He had basically had a combat lobotomy," the interrogator said. "Every [intelligence report] on him from Afghanistan said, 'No value, no value, don't send him.' "

or

Others were grabbed by Pakistani soldiers patrolling the Afghan border who collected bounties for prisoners, sources said. One such prisoner was captured at a restaurant near the border where he claimed to have lived and worked for 20 years.

"He had the mental capacity to put flatbread in an oven and that was the extent of his intellect," the interrogator said. "He never got trained on a rifle, never got pressed into service. But he was Arab by birth so he was picked up and sent away."

or how about these poor buggers...

Other detainees seemed to get caught up in the military's bureaucratic machinery. In many cases, low-value prisoners caught early in the war were placed at the bottom of prioritized lists. But as planeloads of prisoners were sent to Cuba, names at the bottoms of the lists drifted to the top, and some started showing up on flight manifests.

Once they appeared on the manifests, sources said, removing them proved almost impossible. Doing so required senior intelligence officers in Kuwait or Afghanistan to work through thickets of military red tape. It also required them to trust the judgment of junior intelligence officers, something they were loath to do given the stakes.

...yes, you read that right-prisoners on the "don't send" list drifted up the list until they showed up on flight manifests-then they couldn't be bothered removing them from the list...

or how about...

A typical entry describes a 30-year-old Afghan farmer captured by Afghan forces who "seemed most interested in stealing his car and money."

Another describes a 22-year-old Afghan who sold firewood at a bus station in Konduz and was picked up by Northern Alliance forces while he and six others were traveling to Kabul, the Afghan capital.

"He answers all questions quickly and fully," interrogators concluded. "His story is plausible and consistent, and there is no evidence that he has ever worked for or had any knowledge of the Taliban or Al Qaeda."

or

Among the Pakistanis on the list was a 16-year-old who traveled to Afghanistan at the start of the war to help the Taliban, but quickly had second thoughts and was captured by the Northern Alliance while trying to flee. "He showed no signs of deception," interrogators noted. "He never fought for the Taliban."

or

The first prisoner released, in April, was so mentally unstable he was known by interrogators as "Wild Bill."

"He would eat his own feces, dump fresh water from his canteen and urinate in it and drink it," the senior interrogator said. CIA, FBI and psychiatric experts "concluded he was insane."

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-gitmo22dec ... 4365.story

or how about poor Abassin Sayed-the taxi driver who was detained at a road block and turned over to the Americans for bounty payments...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 968458.stm

KYLIE MORRIS (TO ABASSIN SAYED)
I'm well. Come and show me this place. Show me what happened here. (VOICE OVER) His story starts in Gardez. (TO A.S.) This was the checkpoint? OK. So you were driving along here, and the police stopped you?

ABASSIN SAYED:
Yes, they stopped me.

KYLIE MORRIS:
What did they say to you?

ABASSIN SAYED:
To check my car. I said, "Check, no problem". No Al-Qaeda or Taliban problem.

KYLIE MORRIS:
Abassin explains that one of the passengers in his car was someone the gang who ran the checkpoint wanted to capture. In April last year, Gardez was a combat zone. Americans were being ambushed by the Taliban, and they wanted results. Local Afghans were only too happy to oblige by handing over people to them. By having the wrong passenger in his car, Abassin became one of their catch.

Sayed came to international attention because of the lobbying done by his father to get him released. Poor bastard's best friend went down see what had happened to Sayed-ended up at Guantanamo as well... and according to last reports is still in there...

or how about...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi ... tanamo.txt

WHITE: Moazzam Begg was living with his family in Islamabad in Pakistan when he was arrested, not in
Afghanistan. American power and the process of Guantanamo justice has a long reach. Moazzam Begg's
family understand that the men who took him were from the Pakistani Security Services and Americans
acting together.

SALLY BEGG
Wife
That night he was playing with the kids and he was very happy and I told him that I was going to go to sleep
because I was very tired and I've just found out that I'm pregnant with the fourth child, and the next thing I
was woken up with a policewoman and guards with Kalashnikov. They didn't explain nothing. They put
me in a room with my kids. They searched the house from top to bottom, took what they wanted, came and
asked me a few questions and then walked away. I asked them: "When is he going to come back?" They
said: "In two days."

...yes, plucked from the battlefields of Afghanistan with a rifle in his hand-oops, no, plucked from his house in Pakistan playing with his kids!!!

...but it gets better!!! More "bad people", from the fields of Afghanistan...

WHITE: In Sarajevo in January last year the Americans ignored protesters and the court. Six men who'd
been accused of plotting to blow up the American and British embassies were to be released from jail for
lack of evidence. There had been a rumour they might instead be handed to the Americans and taken out of
the country. The Bosnian Human Rights Chamber issued an injunction forbidding this. It was ignored.
The men were driven straight into American custody and then flown to Guantanamo.

PICARD: The American Embassy in Sarajevo was well aware that the Human Rights Chamber issued a
decision prohibiting Bosnia Herzegovina to expel the applicant by force. So I believe that the American
Embassy, when they accepted to take into custody the applicant, were aware that they could not do that, and
they were aware that they could not take them to Guantanamo because it was contrary to the order of the
Human Rights Chamber.

...and more prisoners from "Afghanistan", by way of GAMBIA...

WHITE: And what happened in Islamabad wasn't unique. We've established that the illegal removal of
suspects into American custody in Guantanamo has happened across three continents. We travelled to the
Gambia in West Africa. Two men from Britain on a visit here never returned. They were taken to Bagram
too, and from there to Guantanamo Bay. The two men taken from the Gambia were Jamil Al-Banna and
Bisher Al-Rawi, both UK long-term residents.

Jamil Bisher, his brother and a friend had set off from Britain last year to establish a peanut processing
business in the Gambia. They were arrested at the airport in the capital of Banjul.

WAHAB AL RAWI
We were all arrested, including me, which was a total surprise. I never thought it would happen, not in
Gambia.

WHITE: It was the Gambians who arrested them, but the four were then interrogated by Americans about
suspected links to terrorism. Wahab Al Rawi, formerly an Iraqi, now a British citizen, at first insisted they
had no right to question him.

WAHAB AL RAWI: Every time the American tried to interview me in the first couple of days I refused to
say anything, I refused to cooperate with him. I wanted to see the High Commission, I wanted a lawyer,
and every time he would say: "No". At one time he said: "Well the British authorities know that you are
being arrested. It is them who have asked us to arrest you."

WHITE: Their interrogation by the Americans continued. No one had any access to a lawyer. For Wahab
Al Rawi it lasted 27 days. The four men were taken to a succession of secret locations in the Gambia.
Wahab Al Rawi says the questioning included implied threats.

WAHAB AL RAWI: They would suggest that if they weren't there to protect us, that we would have been
beaten for example, or sexually assaulted for example. It was a suggestion. It wasn't meant as a direct
threat but it is.. sounded like a threat.

WHITE: Wahab Al Rawi was released and allowed to leave the Gambia, but two men were kept behind in
American custody, and once again I found there'd been an attempt to bring habeas corpus proceedings so as
to get the two men produced in court and released. And again, the best efforts of a noted local lawyer, this
man, Borry Touray, failed because his clients were flown out of the country by the Americans to Bagram
instead.

...and of course, there were the British detainees, like James Udeen, who was actually captured while in a Taliban PRISON CELL, and then held by the Americans for two years...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manc ... 504034.stm

...so, yes, I have a hard believing trusting the American Administration on anything they have to say on the prisoners at Guatanemo...

"the only thing we know for certain is that these are bad people and we look forward to working with the Blair government to deal with the issue". "Let me just say, these were illegal combatants. They were picked up off the battlefield aiding and abetting the Taliban". President Bush, July 18 2003

I'm satisfied that the 660 at Guantanamo Bay are among the baddest of the bad, and I believe that the President is well within his power under our constitution, as well as international law, to do what we are doing. Senator Cornyn, Panorama Documentary, 5/10/2003

Colonel RODNEY DAVIS
Coalition Joint Task Force, Afghanistan
I don’t know the specific case you're referencing but I think you would have to agree, America, and for the
most part the other countries involved in this coalition, don’t have a reputation for treating individuals in an
inhumane way. It's not part of our culture.

...if you repeat a lie often enough...