It's 12:00. Do you know where John Kerry is?

[Alyrium Denryle]

So the complete disruption of several states and everything in them is an 'efficiency issue' to you. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid you sound currently? Doesn't matter if anyone is injured or dies as a result(A very real possibility, given many of today's cities), it's just efficiency! It'll be corrected by the Magic Hand Of The Free Market! Except it isn't.

This really is an issue where I disagree with my party BTW, I do feel a few common sense regulations(like power line maintainence)

[SirNitram]

So the complete disruption of several states and everything in them is an 'efficiency issue' to you. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid you sound currently? Doesn't matter if anyone is injured or dies as a result(A very real possibility, given many of today's cities), it's just efficiency! It'll be corrected by the Magic Hand Of The Free Market! Except it isn't.

This really is an issue where I disagree with my party BTW, I do feel a few common sense regulations(like power line maintainence)

I should hope so. The Libertarian Party might as well be the Suck Big Business' Cock Party: They exist to say 'No, you shouldn't do anything to interrupt the All Important Profit Margin.' I daresay they also think the government shouldn't make sure someone maintains the rail network... Wonder if they're too brain-dead to know what would happen if the trains stop running...

[Rogue 9]

Look at it this way, where, exactly, and what kind of, regulations could be in place that would not harm someone?

None if you really want to go into minutiae, but you have to take into account the harm (often greater harm) caused by lack of regulation. Hell, if you want to prevent all harm caused by government regulation/laws, let's just toss out the United States Code! Law, by its very nature, harms criminals, so let's get rid of it!

[Alyrium Denryle]

So the complete disruption of several states and everything in them is an 'efficiency issue' to you. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid you sound currently? Doesn't matter if anyone is injured or dies as a result(A very real possibility, given many of today's cities), it's just efficiency! It'll be corrected by the Magic Hand Of The Free Market! Except it isn't.

This really is an issue where I disagree with my party BTW, I do feel a few common sense regulations(like power line maintainence)

I should hope so. The Libertarian Party might as well be the Suck Big Business' Cock Party: They exist to say 'No, you shouldn't do anything to interrupt the All Important Profit Margin.' I daresay they also think the government shouldn't make sure someone maintains the rail network... Wonder if they're too brain-dead to know what would happen if the trains stop running...

You realize of course that it is not in a corporations best interest to not maintain its means of production... right??

[SirNitram]

This really is an issue where I disagree with my party BTW, I do feel a few common sense regulations(like power line maintainence)

I should hope so. The Libertarian Party might as well be the Suck Big Business' Cock Party: They exist to say 'No, you shouldn't do anything to interrupt the All Important Profit Margin.' I daresay they also think the government shouldn't make sure someone maintains the rail network... Wonder if they're too brain-dead to know what would happen if the trains stop running...

You realize of course that it is not in a corporations best interest to not maintain its means of production... right??

You do realize that, here in the real world, businesses do the absolute minimum whenever possible? Again, do you realize that in Libertarian fantasies, no one would repair the rail network?

Libertarian dogma places corporations above the citizens. Given how quick many corporations have been to screw us, you'd think people would learn this is stupid.

[Alyrium Denryle]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

[Rogue 9]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

*cough*Enron*cough*

[Alyrium Denryle]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

*cough*Enron*cough*

Oddly enough they were caught and went under.

[SirNitram]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

Enron. Microsoft. To harken back a while, Standard Oil.

God, I love how people think companies are actually benevolent. It makes you really have to wonder if they're using their heads.

[Alyrium Denryle]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

Enron. Microsoft. To harken back a while, Standard Oil.

God, I love how people think companies are actually benevolent. It makes you really have to wonder if they're using their heads.

Enron yeah I will conceed that, Microsoft does actually provide a good prodict all things considered.

And standard oil was helped by the government, and lowered the priice of oil. Making the average consumer able to heat their homes etc etc. How did standard oil screw anyone?

[Rogue 9]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

*cough*Enron*cough*

Oddly enough they were caught and went under.

Because of, ummm, what was it again? Oh yeah. REGULATION. Had there been no SEC to check up on them, their little racket could have gone on indefinitely.

[Rogue 9]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

Enron. Microsoft. To harken back a while, Standard Oil.

God, I love how people think companies are actually benevolent. It makes you really have to wonder if they're using their heads.

Enron yeah I will conceed that, Microsoft does actually provide a good prodict all things considered.

And standard oil was helped by the government, and lowered the priice of oil. Making the average consumer able to heat their homes etc etc. How did standard oil screw anyone?

Well, they lowered the price of oil to undercut their competition, and then promptly reversed course once they had a lock on the market, as I recall. Even if they didn't gouge too badly, they sure did screw everyone else in the oil business.

[SirNitram]

where do companies "screw us" yesm mistakes are made, but that is human. To screw someone, requires intent.

Enron. Microsoft. To harken back a while, Standard Oil.

God, I love how people think companies are actually benevolent. It makes you really have to wonder if they're using their heads.

Enron yeah I will conceed that, Microsoft does actually provide a good prodict all things considered.

And standard oil was helped by the government, and lowered the priice of oil. Making the average consumer able to heat their homes etc etc. How did standard oil screw anyone?

Have you actually read your history and seen the monopoly it became? Because your grasp of history must be absolutely terrifying with the argument your presenting.

I remember now, though. You simply disbelieve in monopolies, refuse to accept that they exist and exert power.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Are LP the people that think we shouldn't have paper money because the consititution only give the govt. the power to coin money?

[kojikun]

Rogue: The thing about Enron is that they were lying about profits, and thus in effect falsely advertising their value. That means that if someone buys Enron stock, or such, they're buying on false premises and false promises (hows that for word play? ). So Enron was, effectively, defrauding its stockholders.

[Master of Ossus]

Have you actually read your history and seen the monopoly it became? Because your grasp of history must be absolutely terrifying with the argument your presenting.

I remember now, though. You simply disbelieve in monopolies, refuse to accept that they exist and exert power.

Do you continue to use these strawmen uselessly? The question is not whether or not monopolies exist, it's HOW MUCH POWER DO THEY HAVE? The answer is: not much. A monopoly USUALLY produces at a lower output and a higher price than a purely competitive market, but that's not always the case, and in almost all monopolies nowadays the monopoly price is still cheaper than a consumer would have to pay if two or more companies split the market.

[kojikun]

Or maybe the word isn't defraud, swindle works too. But either way, lying to make more money and in the process, screwing someone over, is wrong. The SEC exists merely to enforce anti-swindling laws which are right to exist and which I don't think even Miss Rand would disagree with, because it is theft, basically.

[Rogue 9]

Rogue: The thing about Enron is that they were lying about profits, and thus in effect falsely advertising their value. That means that if someone buys Enron stock, or such, they're buying on false premises and false promises (hows that for word play? ). So Enron was, effectively, defrauding its stockholders.

No shit. And it would have kept on if there was no market regulation. Isn't this what I said?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Enron. Microsoft. To harken back a while, Standard Oil.

God, I love how people think companies are actually benevolent. It makes you really have to wonder if they're using their heads.

Enron yeah I will conceed that, Microsoft does actually provide a good prodict all things considered.

And standard oil was helped by the government, and lowered the priice of oil. Making the average consumer able to heat their homes etc etc. How did standard oil screw anyone?

Have you actually read your history and seen the monopoly it became? Because your grasp of history must be absolutely terrifying with the argument your presenting.

I remember now, though. You simply disbelieve in monopolies, refuse to accept that they exist and exert power.

It controlled less than 70% of the merket, it did not have a monopoly, Not only that, but the government stepped in broke union strikes. So it did not become a monopoly on its own.

[kojikun]

Are LP the people that think we shouldn't have paper money because the consititution only give the govt. the power to coin money?

I don't think so. Libertartians are definitely Constitutionists, but not to that extreme, I don't think. Besides, amendments have given Congress the power to mint coinage, so it's not an issue.

[SirNitram]

Have you actually read your history and seen the monopoly it became? Because your grasp of history must be absolutely terrifying with the argument your presenting.

I remember now, though. You simply disbelieve in monopolies, refuse to accept that they exist and exert power.

Do you continue to use these strawmen uselessly? The question is not whether or not monopolies exist, it's HOW MUCH POWER DO THEY HAVE? The answer is: not much. A monopoly USUALLY produces at a lower output and a higher price than a purely competitive market, but that's not always the case, and in almost all monopolies nowadays the monopoly price is still cheaper than a consumer would have to pay if two or more companies split the market.

Oh-ho, so stating exactly what was quoted is 'strawmanning'? You should try learning what these words mean.

I'd love to see proof of this bald assertion about monopolies, by the by. I have at very least provided examples.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Addendum: Standard oil did not become as powerful as it was in its own, it had help from governmental agencies.

[SirNitram]

It controlled less than 70% of the merket, it did not have a monopoly, Not only that, but the government stepped in broke union strikes. So it did not become a monopoly on its own.

No, it didn't. That doesn't mean that unregulated monopolies are good, however.

So, despite the fact they were able to price-set as they pleased and people were stuck buying, you are going to simply plug fingers into your ears and declare them 'not a monopoly'. I bet you'd even claim deBeers isn't a monopoly, or that they don't inflate prices...

In the face of such a wall of ignorance, I won't bother.

[kojikun]

Rogue: The thing about Enron is that they were lying about profits, and thus in effect falsely advertising their value. That means that if someone buys Enron stock, or such, they're buying on false premises and false promises (hows that for word play? ). So Enron was, effectively, defrauding its stockholders.

No shit. And it would have kept on if there was no market regulation. Isn't this what I said?

Yeap. BUt I was just saying that I don't think Aly is saying that what Enron did was right, or that the SEC wasn't justified.

I should add, tho, that the LP seems to abhor the SEC, probably for other reasons than honest business practice. Their platform says this:

"We call for the abolition of all regulation of financial and capital markets -- specifically, the abolition of the Securities and Exchange Commission, of state "Blue Sky" laws which repress small and risky capital ventures, and of all federal regulation of commodity markets. We oppose any attempts to ban or regulate investing in stock-market index futures or new financial instruments which may emerge in the future.

We call for repeal of all laws based on the muddled concept of insider trading. What should be punished is the theft of information or breach of contract to hold information in confidence, not trading on the basis of valuable knowledge. We support the right of third parties to make stock purchase tender offers to stockholders over the opposition of entrenched management, and oppose all laws restricting such offers."

[Alyrium Denryle]

It controlled less than 70% of the merket, it did not have a monopoly, Not only that, but the government stepped in broke union strikes. So it did not become a monopoly on its own.

No, it didn't. That doesn't mean that unregulated monopolies are good, however.

So, despite the fact they were able to price-set as they pleased and people were stuck buying, you are going to simply plug fingers into your ears and declare them 'not a monopoly'. I bet you'd even claim deBeers isn't a monopoly, or that they don't inflate prices...

In the face of such a wall of ignorance, I won't bother.

Dude, even if they price fixed, the prices were lower than what cnsumers would get from any other company. Even if they had a monoply(they had competitors, so they werent one) it STILL would have harmed noone.