Swiss Army Knife Lightsaber: Fits the Evidence Better?

[Kurgan]

Putting aside for a minute anything that its "Spelled out" in the EU or lower than film official-level materials, I wonder if this could help explain their behavior in the films better (inspired by the "adjustable blaster settings for the E-11" discussions)?

Let's say that Lightsabers have "adjustable settings" much like we've been arguing that blasters do.

Would this help explain the various "different effects" of sabers seen in the films?

Examples:

Qui Gon Jinn slowly "melts" through the Trade Fed blast door, and his hands aren't burned off.

Han cuts through the Taun Taun's belly on Hoth and it makes a nice clean cut with no "carbon scoring" or cauterisation, and no blood is spilled, only the creature's guts and fat.

Luke's saber cuts off the Wampa's arm, cauterizing it, but the stump left behind is bloody, as opposed to blackened.

Vader's hand is cut off by Luke in their duel on the Death Star II, with "smoking wires" (not melted) poking out of the stump.

Obi-Wan cuts off Panda Boba's (sp?) forearm, causing a puddle of blood underneath the stump and no cauterisation.

Darth Maul is cut cleanly in half with one stroke from Qui Gon's saber in the hands of Obi-Wan, with a fine "mist" of red blood spraying up as the cut is made, but no blood afterwards (perfectly cauterized). Maul remains alive for at least a few seconds after he's been cut in two.

Darth Vader recieves a "glancing blow" from Luke's saber on his right shoulder on Bespin. A shower of sparks and a scream, but he's otherwise seemingly unaffected and able to win the battle. If his arm was cybernetic, it wasn't disabled by the saber hit either.

Luke swings his saber wildly like a baseball bat, hitting dozens of Jabba's henchmen, but no visible dismemberment occurs (and the victims appear to not be immediately killed by the hits), only "blaster burn" marks on the skin/clothing of each victim and in the case of a Gammorean, slashes his metal spear (force pike?) in half.

Anakin's saber cuts Sandpeople and Genonsians in half and causes instantly cauterized multiple dismemberments with each hit. In the rest of AOTC, sabers cause instant dismemberment in nearly every case (or all, but I haven't gone through it frame by frame to be sure).

Anakin's arm is cut off by Dooku and it leaves orange "glowing edges" where it is dismembered.

Obi-wan is "disabled" by Dooku by two "nicks" that leave gold slash marks on his body, but don't appear to remove any flesh. Similar to the damage caused to Jabba's guards in ROTJ, but with the glowing effects.

In the past we've talked about how the "discrepencies" are due to special effects budget, flubs on the part of Lucas (with hopes for "fixes" in the Archival Editions that are only rumored to be the new DVD's), etc. The EU seems to provide different explanations (references to "microscopic cuts" etc).

Could the "variable settings" thing (goofy as it may sound) be helpful in explaining how sabers can do so many different things in combat to human bodies and metallic objects?

[Kurgan]

PS: Probably unreleated, but I think I read that if you watch it frame by frame you see that Anakin's arm actually starts to come off BEFORE Dooku's saber hits it (!).

[Drooling Iguana]

Well, Jedi have precog and.. umm... the mind makes it real?

[PainRack]

Putting aside for a minute anything that its "Spelled out" in the EU or lower than film official-level materials, I wonder if this could help explain their behavior in the films better (inspired by the "adjustable blaster settings for the E-11" discussions)?

Let's say that Lightsabers have "adjustable settings" much like we've been arguing that blasters do.

Not really.

Qui Gon Jinn slowly "melts" through the Trade Fed blast door, and his hands aren't burned off.

Metal has high melting points. It doesn't matter for power settings, the heat coming out of that melted metal is going to burn Qui Gon. So, it just shows that Jedi has a high tolerance for pain, or a Jedi power like the Lone Wolf Nexus. Indeed, this is also shown in AOTC, where a pair of jedi ran through lightning.

Han cuts through the Taun Taun's belly on Hoth and it makes a nice clean cut with no "carbon scoring" or cauterisation, and no blood is spilled, only the creature's guts and fat.

There must be cauterisation because there isn't blood spilling out, as opposed to when the Wampa torn the Tauntaun to bits.

The lack of blood is best left as a questionmark, and is not attributable to the lightsabre.

Luke's saber cuts off the Wampa's arm, cauterizing it, but the stump left behind is bloody, as opposed to blackened.

Errr. what do you mean?

Vader's hand is cut off by Luke in their duel on the Death Star II, with "smoking wires" (not melted) poking out of the stump.

So? IOW, the blade does not use heat to melt through an object, something we always known.

Obi-Wan cuts off Panda Boba's (sp?) forearm, causing a puddle of blood underneath the stump and no cauterisation.

Actually, that arm was cauterised.

Darth Maul is cut cleanly in half with one stroke from Qui Gon's saber in the hands of Obi-Wan, with a fine "mist" of red blood spraying up as the cut is made, but no blood afterwards (perfectly cauterized). Maul remains alive for at least a few seconds after he's been cut in two.

where did the mist of blood come from? Novel?

Darth Vader recieves a "glancing blow" from Luke's saber on his right shoulder on Bespin. A shower of sparks and a scream, but he's otherwise seemingly unaffected and able to win the battle. If his arm was cybernetic, it wasn't disabled by the saber hit either.

The effectiveness of armour, and further proof that lightsabre cutting ability is affected by density.

Anakin's arm is cut off by Dooku and it leaves orange "glowing edges" where it is dismembered.

So, anakin should wear clothes that aren't easily burnt.

Obi-wan is "disabled" by Dooku by two "nicks" that leave gold slash marks on his body, but don't appear to remove any flesh. Similar to the damage caused to Jabba's guards in ROTJ, but with the glowing effects.

Its called pain and shock. The wounds were deep enough to require medical attention, the arm and leg were probably unusable.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Some drops of blood near Pondo Baba's arm are what I would hardly call a "puddle."

Yeah, there was a very fine mist of blood when Obi-Wan cut Maul in half, but just like everything else, you're using all of this to assume something that makes little sense and is unsupported, plus overly complicated.

It's bad logic and none of them point to anything like there being all these settings that you assume/suggest.

[Kurgan]

I am not assuming, but suggesting. Someone could throw up a screencap of the arm, but I remember there being more than just "a few drops."

With the exception of speculation that "the arm was cauterized but the impact of it hitting the ground broke off the 'scab' created by the saber allowing it to 'bleed' " I don't know the rest of the story on the saber effects. That is to say, I haven't heard the other alternate explanation, which explains all the different phenomena (including the ones I listed). But I would like to hear it...

Rather, I've heard a lot of people say that these are "errors" and that Lucas should modify the films so that the sabers behave how they do in AOTC, since this is how they are "supposed to be." In other words, an "out-of-universe" explanation.

There must be cauterisation because there isn't blood spilling out, as opposed to when the Wampa torn the Tauntaun to bits.

The lack of blood is best left as a questionmark, and is not attributable to the lightsabre.

The wound isn't sealed as we've seen it seal in other cases. Why isn't there simply a burn mark down the center of the Taun Taun? Instead it is cut down the middle as if cut with a razor.

I thought of another instance of saber behavior, when Qui Gon gets stabbed by Maul, leaving that circular burn mark (and Qui Gon lives for several minutes afterward, though he's taken out of the fight and probably in great pain).

Lightsaber "settings" have been mentioned in the EU with variable length lightsabers and the supposed "training sabers" used by younglings that have the damage potential of lightbulbs, but I didn't want to get into that, I was just wondering if this would make it easier to solve some of the problems off odd saber behavior. Or should we assume that maybe each lightsaber, being custom made by an individual has a different power setting? This would then lead us to look for patterns with each lightsaber (ie: Luke's saber should do the same things to people, etc).

[PainRack]

The wound isn't sealed as we've seen it seal in other cases. Why isn't there simply a burn mark down the center of the Taun Taun? Instead it is cut down the middle as if cut with a razor.

Han Solo cut open the Tauntaun. Open, you know.

I thought of another instance of saber behavior, when Qui Gon gets stabbed by Maul, leaving that circular burn mark (and Qui Gon lives for several minutes afterward, though he's taken out of the fight and probably in great pain).

and how does that show variable settings?

[Mad]

The speed of the cut will determine how much heating of the target occurs. A very fast cut will have less cauterization than a slower one. Some lightsabers may be stronger than others, as well (especially the ones that are built by hand, instead of being manufactured).

[Kurgan]

Han Solo cut open the Tauntaun. Open, you know.

Sure, but how did he manage that? Why weren't Jabba's thugs "cut open" when Luke hacked them in the similar manner with his lightsaber?

I thought of another instance of saber behavior, when Qui Gon gets stabbed by Maul, leaving that circular burn mark (and Qui Gon lives for several minutes afterward, though he's taken out of the fight and probably in great pain).

and how does that show variable settings?

Why didn't a bunch of Qui Gon's innards/blood rush out from the hole that was torn through his chest?



The "Speed of the cut" thing sounds good, but (well other than in the case of Qui Gon's stabbing which seems to take a second longer than usual and of course the blast door instance in TPM) all of the slashings seem to be pretty fast. Yet sometimes we get dismemberment, other times we get simple burn marks.


PS: If Anakin and Obi-Wan's clothes were so extra flammable, why didn't Dooku's lightning set them on fire? ; )

[Kurgan]

I bolded the example of Luke in ROTJ fighting Jabba's men. To me that stands out (in addition to the Panda Boba incident) as the prime example of something that doesn't seem to fit with our general perception of how lightsabers work on bodies (ie: that they cut through anything, sealing the wounds completely while dismembering).

[neoolong]

I bolded the example of Luke in ROTJ fighting Jabba's men. To me that stands out (in addition to the Panda Boba incident) as the prime example of something that doesn't seem to fit with our general perception of how lightsabers work on bodies (ie: that they cut through anything, sealing the wounds completely while dismembering).

Ponda Boba can be explained if his physiology is appreciably different than humans. So while a lightsaber may cauterize wounds on a human, it may not on whatever Ponda was.

[Slartibartfast]

Sure, but how did he manage that? Why weren't Jabba's thugs "cut open" when Luke hacked them in the similar manner with his lightsaber?

The tauntaun wasn't "hacked", Han made an incision with the tip of the saber and then across the abdomen or whatever. Wonds in combat are normally slashes across the entirety of a limb, with the entire edge surface of the blade making contact with the entire surface of the cut side.

[Kurgan]

Okay, so how about Jabba's guards, none of them appear to have been "cut open" or even dismembered, yet the hits they recieved seem to be equal to those dished out by say Anakin in AOTC on the Tuskens, Geonosians, etc that he killed.

It's as if Luke's saber was set to "burn" and he just used his saber to "swat" people into the Sarlacc pit (though he did hit a few guys on the deck so they would have just fallen over rather than into the pit).

Rather than being dead or cut up, they were clearly alive, screaming and squirming around when the sarlacc's tentacles pulled them down into the "mouth."

Perhaps in the DVD's we'll see limbs flying in this scene, but until then, how do we rationalize it?

If the ESB example is typical one could almost perform surgery with a lightsaber, but Luke's blade seems to be only good for burning people and pushing them around like a red hot poker, though he is able to cut off Vader's hand, Fett's blaster and the speeder bike steering vein later using the same weapon (though he makes awfully big swings in the latter cases, perhaps his saber is just very weak and he really has to put some power behind it to make it do anything?).

Then again, are we to assume that Luke is just hitting his enemies as lightly as possible (even though he's swinging wildly) so that it only barely touches his opponents, because he wishes to (sadistically) allow his victims to be digested by the sarlacc rather than die from a quick saber cut? But if that's the case, then it seems to contradict the "precision cut" on the TaunTaun belly, unless we say that Anakin's old saber is just that much better at cutting than Luke's saber in ROTJ.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, you could say that Luke's ROTJ sabre is of lower quality than the other ones due to his inexperience, so it's not as efficient at cutting.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

More likely that Luke only "cut into" them rather than cut them in half as Anakin did in AotC. Basically, Luke's cuts weren't as deep as Anakins.

[Kurgan]

Could be, but that again begs the question of why they weren't "cut open" like the Taun Taun.

Granted, we have Obi-Wan with the "burn marks" but his cuts were pretty darn small.

Could the cold have anything to do with Taun Taun's gut splitting open?

[jenat-lai]

Luke wasn't in a primeval rage like Anakin was with the Tuskens either. Anakin was quite heftily swinging into those guys with alot of force, whereas luke on Jabbas Barge seemed to be swinging it around quickly, but with little follow through, looking for speed, rather than brute force and cutting power. Luke was defending also, so his intent may have been to disable so they couldn't fight anymore, rather than outright kill because he hated them like Anikin was with the Tusken raiders. On Geonisis Anakin is also defending, but then those guys are insect-like. He also seems to be putting a lot of force into his cuts similar to his attacks on the tuskens, though admittedly he doesn't seem to loose his cool during that fight, he does seem to be making the type of cuts (Slicing diagonaly from the join of the neck and shoulder down through the majority of the torso) specificly designed to kill in one slice. Lukes fighting on the Barge is almost random wild swings from side to side, as much to frighten the mercinaries/combatants as to hurt them. At no time does he seem to emply the one-slice-kill technique that Anakin goes for.

[Kurgan]

Luke wasn't in a primeval rage like Anakin was with the Tuskens either.

True, though other examples from AOTC show similar effects from sabers (ie: Obi-Wan on Geonosis, Obi-Wan vs. Zam Wessel, Mace Windu on Geonosis; plus numerous examples from TPM and don't tell me that battle droids are easier to cut up than carbon based humanoids!).

Edit: Surely we shouldn't assume that all examples of saber dismemberment are due to Jedi falling into (darkside tempting) rage like Anakin's...

Anakin was quite heftily swinging into those guys with alot of force, whereas luke on Jabbas Barge seemed to be swinging it around quickly, but with little follow through, looking for speed, rather than brute force and cutting power.

While Anakin certainly looks angry, Luke seems to have taken quite a few big swings himself and certain was "getting into" the battle. After all, he's literally fighting for his life against a numerically superior foe. Sure he was whooping them, but he took a blaster shot to his hand and got tied up by Fett, both of which could have been fatal if he hadn't recovered in time.

Luke was defending also, so his intent may have been to disable so they couldn't fight anymore, rather than outright kill because he hated them like Anikin was with the Tusken raiders.

I've discussed this before with other fans. We agree that Luke is definately being less hateful by not dismembering his enemies, so they can spend 1,000 years being digested by the Sarlacc. Much more humane guy, this Skywalker. (hehe)

Anyway, we've seen other Jedi "outright kill" foes, such as in AOTC on Geonosis.

On Geonisis Anakin is also defending, but then those guys are insect-like.

Meaning what, that alien life is okay to snuff out through brutal violence, but human life is not?? Seems like a pretty cavaliar (not to mention politically expedient) philosophy for the police force of a multi-galactic state with thousands of sentient species.

The only human-on-human saber kills we've witnessed in the movies are Obi-Wan being killed by Vader and Jango Fett being killed by Mace Windu.

The thing is, Jedi are ALWAYS defending, by the very nature of their chosen weapons. They're either blocking blaster shots or they're blocking other sabers. People without sabers (and force reflexes) either have to duck and cover when shot at or get hit. Jedi have the option to block shots with their blades uisng their superhuman reflexes. So I don't buy that when they are defending they are not allowed to kill, or vice versa. We see examples of both. If I were a Jedi in combat I'd want to dispatch my opponents as quickly as possible to remove the threat. I would think it would be far easier to cut a swath through a crowd with my lightsaber, killing everyone in the path of the blade than to hold back and gently burn the skin of each one, leaving them still alive and kicking (and possibly able to still hurt me).

Saying that Dooku wanted to set Obi-Wan up for a coup'de grace for fun and so used exact precision to avoid killing Obi-Wan outright is one thing. But this guy is a trained Jedi Master with decades of experience, not to mention at least a few years as a Sith Lord. This compared to Luke who's basically self taught for most of his short career as a Jedi starting in his late teens/early 20's. Does Luke really have the skills to intentionally nick his opponents in battle so as to provide non-lethal hits? Either that or as we've been speculating: 1) his saber is really really weak compared to prequel era blades, 2) his saber is set to some "lower damage" setting for some reason....

He also seems to be putting a lot of force into his cuts similar to his attacks on the tuskens, though admittedly he doesn't seem to loose his cool during that fight, he does seem to be making the type of cuts (Slicing diagonaly from the join of the neck and shoulder down through the majority of the torso) specificly designed to kill in one slice. Lukes fighting on the Barge is almost random wild swings from side to side, as much to frighten the mercinaries/combatants as to hurt them. At no time does he seem to emply the one-slice-kill technique that Anakin goes for.

But the point is he still HITS the majority of the people who swings at, enough to cause them to either fall down and not get up again or to fall off the barge into the Sarlacc's maw (but continue to show signs of life, such as screaming, struggling, etc). His blade is swinging to widely and so fast, I would think it would pass right through several of those thugs, but I'd have to go through the scene again frame by frame.

Since this is before CGI, I would guess that the scene was done with Mark Hamill swinging his "antenna rod" prop back and forth and just lightly tapping each of the stuntmen as they hop off the "barge" to simulate what we eventually see onscreen after post-production. However, if they wanted to simulate "cutting through" people, they could have had Hamill use a "handle only" prop and thus just animate in the blade later. I'm not sure which technique was used, but it would be interesting. They could simulate "cutting through" of course, but it would be a bit harder to make look real.


Still, lethal or not, a saber pass through somebody's body should either cause a big tear in them like with the Taun Taun or else cause a body part to fall off (like in AOTC, or even ANH). We see neither happen, which is why the scene seems odd to me.

[PainRack]

Sure, but how did he manage that? Why weren't Jabba's thugs "cut open" when Luke hacked them in the similar manner with his lightsaber?

Because Han Solo deliberately cut open the tauntaun in a surgical manner, whereas Luke just randomly hacked at the guards, in an attempt to stop them from interfering with the battle.

Why didn't a bunch of Qui Gon's innards/blood rush out from the hole that was torn through his chest?

A small hole like that? Where's the innards going to come from? As for blood, the wound was cauterised. Maul sabre was in Qui Gon for an extended period of time.

PS: If Anakin and Obi-Wan's clothes were so extra flammable, why didn't Dooku's lightning set them on fire? ; )

Read up on electrical resistance first. Apparently, jedi robes aren't, look at the power converter incident.

[PainRack]

True, though other examples from AOTC show similar effects from sabers (ie: Obi-Wan on Geonosis, Obi-Wan vs. Zam Wessel, Mace Windu on Geonosis; plus numerous examples from TPM and don't tell me that battle droids are easier to cut up than carbon based humanoids!).

Except in TPM, we saw Qui Gon and Obiwan deliberately swinging their lightsabres like a huge broadsword in an attempt to decapitate their droid opponents.

While Anakin certainly looks angry, Luke seems to have taken quite a few big swings himself and certain was "getting into" the battle. After all, he's literally fighting for his life against a numerically superior foe. Sure he was whooping them, but he took a blaster shot to his hand and got tied up by Fett, both of which could have been fatal if he hadn't recovered in time.

His attacks lacked the strenght and finese to cut opponents then.

Saying that Dooku wanted to set Obi-Wan up for a coup'de grace for fun and so used exact precision to avoid killing Obi-Wan outright is one thing. But this guy is a trained Jedi Master with decades of experience, not to mention at least a few years as a Sith Lord. This compared to Luke who's basically self taught for most of his short career as a Jedi starting in his late teens/early 20's. Does Luke really have the skills to intentionally nick his opponents in battle so as to provide non-lethal hits? Either that or as we've been speculating: 1) his saber is really really weak compared to prequel era blades, 2) his saber is set to some "lower damage" setting for some reason....

Or Luke technique with his sabre is weaker than Obiwan and other equivalent knights. the lightsabre obviously finds it diffcult to cut through thicker objects than thin, so, apply that to cuting through an entire body vs just simply nicking it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

PS: If Anakin and Obi-Wan's clothes were so extra flammable, why didn't Dooku's lightning set them on fire? ; )

Read up on electrical resistance first. Apparently, jedi robes aren't, look at the power converter incident.

Force Lightning isn't actually electricity. It's a manifestation of Dark Side energy.

Concerning Luke again, I don't think it's necessarily that he was weaker than Anakin, but perhaps that he didn't want to get in as close as Anakin did to cut enemies in half. In RotJ, Luke seemed to be attacking with the last quarter of his lightsabre's blade, while Anakin often got in close enough to use the length of the blade around the middle.

Basically, slashing across the chest is just as effective as cutting them in half.

[Stofsk]

Force Lightning isn't actually electricity. It's a manifestation of Dark Side energy.

What? So Palpatine was throwing bad juju at Luke? As was Dooku at Anakin? Must be strong juju - both were sizzling.

And does this make Yoda a secret Sith, as he was throwing 'Dark Side energy' too at Dooku.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What, don't tell me you thought that was literally lightning they were using?

It's old and outdated, I know, but according to WEG, Yoda didn't know Force Lightning, but he did know Absorb/Dissipate Energy, which is what Vader used at Cloud City, and probably what Yoda used against Dooku (actually, he definately did use it at least once, at the end when he directs it into his hand and it disappears).

Force Lightning is described as a Dark Side power in origin and a corruption of the Force, because it relies on the user harnessing pure hatred to twist the Force and manifest it directly into destructive energy. WEG automatically gave anyone who used it a Dark Side point, no matter what the circumstance because of its nature.

[Stofsk]

What, don't tell me you thought that was literally lightning they were using?

To be honest, I don't know what the fuck they were using. When you have some crusty old white guy in a black cloak shoot lightning from his fingertips while cackling like a sonofabitch you don't ask questions. You kinda go "Yeah, he's evil."

It's old and outdated, I know, but according to WEG, Yoda didn't know Force Lightning, but he did know Absorb/Dissipate Energy, which is what Vader used at Cloud City, and probably what Yoda used against Dooku (actually, he definately did use it at least once, at the end when he directs it into his hand and it disappears).

He did absorb Dooku's second lightning attack, but immediately prior to that Yoda returned fire with a salvo of his own, instead of absorbing or dissipating Dooku's first lightning attack - Dooku couldn't absorb Yoda's FL attack and had to redirect it (so that it hit the ceiling).

Force Lightning is described as a Dark Side power in origin and a corruption of the Force, because it relies on the user harnessing pure hatred to twist the Force and manifest it directly into destructive energy. WEG automatically gave anyone who used it a Dark Side point, no matter what the circumstance because of its nature.

If so, then Yoda gained a Dark Side point.

[Lord Revan]

He did absorb Dooku's second lightning attack, but immediately prior to that Yoda returned fire with a salvo of his own, instead of absorbing or dissipating Dooku's first lightning attack - Dooku couldn't absorb Yoda's FL attack and had to redirect it (so that it hit the ceiling).

No Yoda redirected Dooku's first attack back to Dooku