Photon/Quantum Torps kick butt

[tjhairball]

Well, the Empire has inertial damping and gravity control technology sufficient to make the jump to lightspeed feel like nothing, maybe that would help with containing the black hole?

...I assume you mean you'd like me to clarify the above point for people unfamiliar with physics, yes?

Inertial damping (and projected artificial gravity) are pretty much required to make a battlestation using a black hole as a power source comfortable. It's basically assumed in every discussion of high acceleration SF craft that something of the sort is going on. As Howard Taylor of Schlock Mercenary puts it, it's simply a matter of making sure every little bit of what you've got accelerates at exactly the same rate. That's a simple problem if you have gravitic manipulation. Requires lots of computing power and good internal sensors, but relatively simple in nature.

The problem here isn't being able to manipulate gravity fields. The problem here is that a ship powered by a black hole has a high mass. Making your mass somehow less while you're jetting propellant out the back that IS full mass (otherwise, you don't get the full benefit of momentum) is virtually incomprehensibly difficult to fix, regardless of your gravitic controls. If you don't... well, you're sitting around shooting a lot of fuel around at high energy cost and wondering why everybody else can move ten times as fast.

That's why not as many hard science fiction writers use black holes to power ships, and in such cases, the ships almost always use a drive system that isn't based on Newtonian physics at all.

[SirNitram]

To point out, Star Wars' powersource is a material called 'Hypermatter', which is characterized as being 'faster than light', and having a complex mass. This makes measuring it's rest mass all but impossible, but we can determine the effective energy density is several million times that of the threshold of a black hole(Divide the energy required to destroy Alderaan as it was seen to be destroyed by the volume of the DS1's reactor core..). This should make every ship extremely slow, but it seems the reaction is efficient enough to overcome it.

[tjhairball]

To point out, Star Wars' powersource is a material called 'Hypermatter', which is characterized as being 'faster than light', and having a complex mass. This makes measuring it's rest mass all but impossible, but we can determine the effective energy density is several million times that of the threshold of a black hole(Divide the energy required to destroy Alderaan as it was seen to be destroyed by the volume of the DS1's reactor core..). This should make every ship extremely slow, but it seems the reaction is efficient enough to overcome it.

Please do cite and explain further. I've never heard this explanation before.

[SirNitram]

To point out, Star Wars' powersource is a material called 'Hypermatter', which is characterized as being 'faster than light', and having a complex mass. This makes measuring it's rest mass all but impossible, but we can determine the effective energy density is several million times that of the threshold of a black hole(Divide the energy required to destroy Alderaan as it was seen to be destroyed by the volume of the DS1's reactor core..). This should make every ship extremely slow, but it seems the reaction is efficient enough to overcome it.

Please do cite and explain further. I've never heard this explanation before.

The statement of it's characterizations and it's name are drawn from the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections.

Thusly:

"Power Sources
Most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter
annihilation cores. The interiors of the mighties war vessels are dominated
by huge reactors cores and ultra-dense fuel silos, which enable them to
perform massive planetary bombardments and sustain hours of thousand-G
accelerations before refuelling."

"Hyperdrive
Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump
to light-speed without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship."

The statement of their effective density comes from taking the commonly accepted firepower for the Death Star's blast against Alderaan, solving E=MC^2 for M, and then working out the density, given that the reactor of the DS1 is 16 kilometers across.

[tjhairball]

The statement of it's characterizations and it's name are drawn from the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections.

Thusly:

"Power Sources
Most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter annihilation cores. The interiors of the mighties war vessels are dominated by huge reactors cores and ultra-dense fuel silos, which enable them to perform massive planetary bombardments and sustain hours of thousand-G accelerations before refuelling."

"Hyperdrive
Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump to light-speed without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship."

The statement of their effective density comes from taking the commonly accepted firepower for the Death Star's blast against Alderaan, solving E=MC^2 for M, and then working out the density, given that the reactor of the DS1 is 16 kilometers across.

So that's where it was from? I was wondering why "hypermatter" didn't seem to turn up at all in the nineteen Lucas script versions I could find of the five films*...

From the first quote, it is inferred that hypermatter is some extraordinarily dense substance and that the reactor technology of the Empire is based on its annihilation, which gives us the same basic maths of an antimatter core based on very dense matter/energy. Energy, matter, all have gravity (which can, in SW and ST alike, be effectively cancelled within the confines of a ship) but they also retain inertia. Essentially, what the author of the E2ICS has claimed is that SWs ships use highly compact matter annihilation plants, basically just heavier (and more compact) versions of ST antimatter plants as far as general effect is concerned.

As to the density being required in order for a Death Star to blow up Alderaan, I can work with hard figures for that later. The Death Star appears to be the only concrete example that requires this great spatial density of energy, and suffice it to say that there is more than one way to bust a globe. Just zip back eighty years and ask Tesla.

The second quote seems to require a very different sort of hypermatter that, rather than being annihilated, a starship would be required to create or somehow scale in precise quantities on the fly, and consists mostly of imaginary matter in very vast quantities relative to its real component, given the described function.

Frankly, I preferred the normal inferrence from the movies that one went into hyperspace, moved around in there, and then transitioned back into "normal space," having cut effective distance due to the different geometric properties of hyperspace. The movies, which I generally consider higher canon than supplementary material, definitely seemed to imply an alternative space rather than remaining in realspace and creating hyperluminal projectiles with imaginary starships attached. For that matter, when hyperspace transitions are in turn based on equating imaginary matter, a little complex algebra appears to reveal some rather stunning limits on the ending velocity.

Namely, in order to balance imaginary and real matter in a transition from subluminal to superluminal velocity by using complex matter to balance the mass variance relativity equation, superluminal velocity is sharply limited to 1.41421c. If that number looks familiar, it's the square root of two times the speed of light. Unless everything is shrunken in the Star Wars universe by a large factor, this is incompatible with the "higher canon" of the movies. I'd say throw that sucker out - clearly the E2ICS's justification falls well outside the operational parameters of the movie. I'd say find a better tech resource.

*I could find a few references to "fusion," more commonly in the older script editions.

[The Nomad]

1°) just because the ICS states that FTL hypermatter is used in the drive, doesn't mean all matter classified "hypermatter" is superluminal.

I wonder if hypermatter could be a form of matter with tremendous rest mass, but dissociated and comparatively insignificant inertial and gravitational masses. Of course this contradicts the identities found in GR... but I like the idea .

2°) your explanation about black hole density is ... wrong.
Take a black hole with the mass of Earth, that's about 10^24 kg.
It yields a mass energy in excess of 10^40 J. A hundred times the accepted value for the DS SL shot.
Input the mass in the Schwartzchild Radius formula ( namely r=GM/c² ). If I'm not mistaken, such a black hole would have a radius of about eight millimeters.

For that matter, a black hole with the mass of the Sun ( around 10^30 kg, >10^46 J mass energy ) has a Schwartzchild Radius of about 3 km. It still fits within the DS main reactor.

[Darth Wong]

So that's where it was from? I was wondering why "hypermatter" didn't seem to turn up at all in the nineteen Lucas script versions I could find of the five films*...

Lucas does not talk about technological matters in his scripts.

From the first quote, it is inferred that hypermatter is some extraordinarily dense substance and that the reactor technology of the Empire is based on its annihilation, which gives us the same basic maths of an antimatter core based on very dense matter/energy. Energy, matter, all have gravity (which can, in SW and ST alike, be effectively cancelled within the confines of a ship) but they also retain inertia. Essentially, what the author of the E2ICS has claimed is that SWs ships use highly compact matter annihilation plants, basically just heavier (and more compact) versions of ST antimatter plants as far as general effect is concerned.

Actually, the first quote really says nothing at all about exactly what hypermatter is.

As to the density being required in order for a Death Star to blow up Alderaan, I can work with hard figures for that later. The Death Star appears to be the only concrete example that requires this great spatial density of energy, and suffice it to say that there is more than one way to bust a globe. Just zip back eighty years and ask Tesla.

Wrong. Acceleration of an entire planetary mass to around 5% of c simply cannot be done without an enormous quantity of energy. And Tesla never developed any magical uber-techs that could defy the laws of thermodynamics, widely Tesla-wank bullshit aside.

The second quote seems to require a very different sort of hypermatter that, rather than being annihilated, a starship would be required to create or somehow scale in precise quantities on the fly, and consists mostly of imaginary matter in very vast quantities relative to its real component, given the described function.

The implication is that a starship carries a huge hypermatter "ballast" of mostly imaginary mass.

Frankly, I preferred the normal inferrence from the movies that one went into hyperspace, moved around in there, and then transitioned back into "normal space," having cut effective distance due to the different geometric properties of hyperspace. The movies, which I generally consider higher canon than supplementary material, definitely seemed to imply an alternative space rather than remaining in realspace and creating hyperluminal projectiles with imaginary starships attached.

Nowhere do the movies imply this explanation. In fact, since it is possible to run into objects in realspace while travelling through hyperspace, hyperspace must be collinear with realspace if you adopt this "parallel dimension" explanation, and that is in fact precisely what some of the older tech literature claimed. So there is no geometric bonus.

For that matter, when hyperspace transitions are in turn based on equating imaginary matter, a little complex algebra appears to reveal some rather stunning limits on the ending velocity.

Namely, in order to balance imaginary and real matter in a transition from subluminal to superluminal velocity by using complex matter to balance the mass variance relativity equation, superluminal velocity is sharply limited to 1.41421c. If that number looks familiar, it's the square root of two times the speed of light.

Care to explain how you came to this conclusion, since it seems to be based on an assumption of ratios?

find a better tech resource ...

This from someone who thinks that Tesla found a way to violate the First Law of Thermodynamics?

[Prozac the Robert]

That's why not as many hard science fiction writers use black holes to power ships, and in such cases, the ships almost always use a drive system that isn't based on Newtonian physics at all.

Not many except for Arthur C Clarke. See Imperial Earth.

Although to be fair the black hole was simply helping to accelerate hydrogen rather than providing the masses of energy needed for star wars ships.

[tjhairball]

Not many except for Arthur C Clarke. See Imperial Earth.

Although to be fair the black hole was simply helping to accelerate hydrogen rather than providing the masses of energy needed for star wars ships.

I said "not many," not "none," speaking in relative terms. Niven and Pournelle, if I recall correctly, have been known to use them as power plants.

The Nomad, what I've stated about black hole energy density is that it is immense in spatial terms, but no greater than ordinary matter with respect to energy per mass unit.

[tjhairball]

Lucas does not talk about technological matters in his scripts.

Right. He doesn't give explanations. He mentions a few things - twin ion engines, hyperdrive, lightspeed, droids - but he never explains how they work, and I don't think I want him to. I'd rather he hadn't done as much explaining about the Force as he did with the midichlorion thing, actually.

Actually, the first quote really says nothing at all about exactly what hypermatter is.

"Ultra dense fuel silos" - this hypermatter is dense.
"Annihilation core" - this hypermatter is annihilated.
SirNitram's statement further implied a general magnitude for the density; yes, technically that is not from the first quote.

Wrong. Acceleration of an entire planetary mass to around 5% of c simply cannot be done without an enormous quantity of energy. And Tesla never developed any magical uber-techs that could defy the laws of thermodynamics, widely Tesla-wank bullshit aside.

Acceleration of a planetary mass to 5%c, and not relating to the Death Star - that's another thing I don't remember seeing in the movies. Yes, Tesla obeyed the laws of thermodynamics. However, he's known to have claimed to be able to crack the earth open like an apple, and MW power plants were just making the rounds at the time. The brute force application of large amounts of raw energy isn't the only conceivable way to shatter planets.

The implication is that a starship carries a huge hypermatter "ballast" of mostly imaginary mass.

I read that. I read pretty clearly why - in order to keep imaginary mass component and real mass component equal within the velocity dependence of mass in shifting to a sub-c speed to a super-c speed. A little complex algebra reveals that this method has a velocity output based on pre-transition realspace velocity, and with very sharp limitations. I think we all agree that 1.41c is too slow of a speed limit.

Nowhere do the movies imply this explanation. In fact, since it is possible to run into objects in realspace while travelling through hyperspace, hyperspace must be collinear with realspace if you adopt this "parallel dimension" explanation, and that is in fact precisely what some of the older tech literature claimed. So there is no geometric bonus.

Hm. Let's do some digging:
HAN: Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or
bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick,
wouldn't it?
Golly gee, wouldja look at that? Han says we can bump into things in hyperspace. I never would've remembered that on my own, thanks. I suppose he could be talking about the whole "gravity field pulling you out" effect that we see all over the various novels, but I see where you're coming from, his line certainly says you can bump into things. Well, if you don't like the "dimensional transition" theory from the older stuff, you have your clear reasons.

Care to explain how you came to this conclusion, since it seems to be based on an assumption of ratios?

The quote states that imaginary and real mass components are held to equal states before and after the transition. Since m(0)=m(r)/(1-V2/C2)^0.5, the real and imaginary components switch after a fashion when you transition from sub to superluminal speeds. It's a very clever abuse of Einstein, but it doesn't explain Star Wars very well - the governing equation for the transition, based on the component maintainence set forth by the E2ICS, is that 2C^2-V(0)^2=V(H)^2 - thus a 1.41c limit. Alternatively, of course, you could assume an extra matter inversion factor, and essentially arbitrarily swap out a sign to get 2C^2+V(0)^2=V(H)^2, but that isn't much better. You're still stuck with an arbitrary speed limit between c and 2c that depends on your initial subluminal velocity.

This from someone who thinks that Tesla found a way to violate the First Law of Thermodynamics?

Hardly. However, you might show a bit more appreciation for Tesla for his very real impact on your life as a technological human being.

[SirNitram]

The statement of it's characterizations and it's name are drawn from the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections.

Thusly:

"Power Sources
Most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter annihilation cores. The interiors of the mighties war vessels are dominated by huge reactors cores and ultra-dense fuel silos, which enable them to perform massive planetary bombardments and sustain hours of thousand-G accelerations before refuelling."

"Hyperdrive
Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump to light-speed without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship."

The statement of their effective density comes from taking the commonly accepted firepower for the Death Star's blast against Alderaan, solving E=MC^2 for M, and then working out the density, given that the reactor of the DS1 is 16 kilometers across.

So that's where it was from? I was wondering why "hypermatter" didn't seem to turn up at all in the nineteen Lucas script versions I could find of the five films*...

From the first quote, it is inferred that hypermatter is some extraordinarily dense substance and that the reactor technology of the Empire is based on its annihilation, which gives us the same basic maths of an antimatter core based on very dense matter/energy. Energy, matter, all have gravity (which can, in SW and ST alike, be effectively cancelled within the confines of a ship) but they also retain inertia. Essentially, what the author of the E2ICS has claimed is that SWs ships use highly compact matter annihilation plants, basically just heavier (and more compact) versions of ST antimatter plants as far as general effect is concerned.

Pretty much. However, the nature of matter with complex mass means that you can't actually work out it's density like I did.

As to the density being required in order for a Death Star to blow up Alderaan, I can work with hard figures for that later. The Death Star appears to be the only concrete example that requires this great spatial density of energy, and suffice it to say that there is more than one way to bust a globe. Just zip back eighty years and ask Tesla.

Tesla, at best, could crack a planet open and leave it to smash back into each other. This, however, is what the Death Star does:


Mere calculation of the speed of the debris, averaged out over the cloud, proves that the entire energy state of Alderaan must have been raised by 1e38 Joules. I am sorry, but no amount of wishful thinking or effort will reduce this number.

In addition, this energy density is roughly linear for size when other data from sources like the ICS is included. Here, for example, are the technical specifications of the huge transports in Episode Two:

Data File
Manufacturer: Rothana Heavy Engineering (subsidiary of KDY)
Make: /Acclamator/-class tran-galactic military transport ship
Dimensions: length 752m; width 460m; depth (with landing gear) 200m; depth
(in flight) 183m
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 3,500 G Note:*sweet*
Power: main reactor peak 2e23 W; peak shielding 7e22 W
Hyperdrive: class 0.6; range 250,000 light-years fully fueled
Passengers: 16,000 clone troopers and support personnel
Armament: 12 quad turbolaser turrets (200 gigatons per shot); 24 laser
cannons (6 megatons per shot); 4 missile/torpedo launch tubes

The second quote seems to require a very different sort of hypermatter that, rather than being annihilated, a starship would be required to create or somehow scale in precise quantities on the fly, and consists mostly of imaginary matter in very vast quantities relative to its real component, given the described function.

They merely cause us to conclude there is one type of hypermatter, and it serves two jobs. This matter is extremely exotic and dense, so it was undoutably the clear choice for power generation as the SW tech level advanced towards the present day.

Frankly, I preferred the normal inferrence from the movies that one went into hyperspace, moved around in there, and then transitioned back into "normal space," having cut effective distance due to the different geometric properties of hyperspace. The movies, which I generally consider higher canon than supplementary material, definitely seemed to imply an alternative space rather than remaining in realspace and creating hyperluminal projectiles with imaginary starships attached. For that matter, when hyperspace transitions are in turn based on equating imaginary matter, a little complex algebra appears to reveal some rather stunning limits on the ending velocity.

You may prefer whichever you want, that is the canon.

Namely, in order to balance imaginary and real matter in a transition from subluminal to superluminal velocity by using complex matter to balance the mass variance relativity equation, superluminal velocity is sharply limited to 1.41421c. If that number looks familiar, it's the square root of two times the speed of light. Unless everything is shrunken in the Star Wars universe by a large factor, this is incompatible with the "higher canon" of the movies. I'd say throw that sucker out - clearly the E2ICS's justification falls well outside the operational parameters of the movie. I'd say find a better tech resource.

Observational evidence trumps theory, dear boy. We observe the ships travellign at millions of times the speed of light, so we can safely assume your calculations are, at best, only right for the real universe.

[NecronLord]

Observational evidence trumps theory, dear boy. We observe the ships travellign at millions of times the speed of light, so we can safely assume your calculations are, at best, only right for the real universe.

I'm 99% certain he means that this means that the theory needs refining as opposed to claiming that this means that SW ships can't hit 1.5 c...

[SirNitram]

Observational evidence trumps theory, dear boy. We observe the ships travellign at millions of times the speed of light, so we can safely assume your calculations are, at best, only right for the real universe.

I'm 99% certain he means that this means that the theory needs refining as opposed to claiming that this means that SW ships can't hit 1.5 c...

That's entirely possible as there's no caffeine in my house to raise my state of consciousness towards 'awake'.

[tjhairball]

I agree that clear observation from the script and the movie contradicts the results of the calculations. It's very simple (and very inflexible) math, and the calculations are correct. Therefore, since observation in the movies trumps theory, the observations are inconsistent with the results of my calculations, and the calculations follow logically from the theory, the theory set forth in the E2ICS is wrong.

The obvious solution is to discard it as contradictory or (as NecronLord is pointing out and as we've discussed briefly) tinker with it in order to somehow make it fit. (It takes awful lot of tinkering, and I'm not sure it can make it all the way to fitting the facts without inventing an entirely new technology not at all mentioned by the E2ICS.)

[Haze Gray]

Acceleration of a planetary mass to 5%c, and not relating to the Death Star - that's another thing I don't remember seeing in the movies. Yes, Tesla obeyed the laws of thermodynamics. However, he's known to have claimed to be able to crack the earth open like an apple, and MW power plants were just making the rounds at the time. The brute force application of large amounts of raw energy isn't the only conceivable way to shatter planets.

Yes, he CLAIMED to be able to crack the Earth open like an apple. But guess what? He never PROVED he could crack the Earth open like an apple, so its a moot point.

I think we all agree that 1.41c is too slow of a speed limit.

About a million times too slow.

I suppose he could be talking about the whole "gravity field pulling you out" effect that we see all over the various novels,

The movies override the books.

You're still stuck with an arbitrary speed limit between c and 2c that depends on your initial subluminal velocity.

But we know that SW ships can go several million times c, so its a moot point.

Hardly. However, you might show a bit more appreciation for Tesla for his very real impact on your life as a technological human being.

Irrelevant as he never cracked the Earth open like an apple, as you claim he could.

I agree that clear observation from the script and the movie contradicts the results of the calculations. It's very simple (and very inflexible) math, and the calculations are correct. Therefore, since observation in the movies trumps theory, the observations are inconsistent with the results of my calculations, and the calculations follow logically from the theory, the theory set forth in the E2ICS is wrong.

Actually it means that YOU are wrong. Read Mr. Wong's website.

[Darth Wong]

Right. He doesn't give explanations. He mentions a few things - twin ion engines, hyperdrive, lightspeed, droids - but he never explains how they work, and I don't think I want him to. I'd rather he hadn't done as much explaining about the Force as he did with the midichlorion thing, actually.

Agreed.

Actually, the first quote really says nothing at all about exactly what hypermatter is.

"Ultra dense fuel silos" - this hypermatter is dense.
"Annihilation core" - this hypermatter is annihilated.
SirNitram's statement further implied a general magnitude for the density; yes, technically that is not from the first quote.

This does not, however, contradict anything from the second quote.

Acceleration of a planetary mass to 5%c, and not relating to the Death Star - that's another thing I don't remember seeing in the movies.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... eraan.html

Lots of pictures. It's 5% of c.

Yes, Tesla obeyed the laws of thermodynamics. However, he's known to have claimed to be able to crack the earth open like an apple, and MW power plants were just making the rounds at the time.

Hyperbole, and meaningless hyperbole at that. To "crack" the Earth open only means making a breach in its hard crust, and there are numerous naturally occurring breaches already; we call them volcanoes. This is not remotely comparable to actual planetary destruction.

The brute force application of large amounts of raw energy isn't the only conceivable way to shatter planets.

Prove it. Show how it could be magically done without the quantity of energy necessary to overcome gravitational potential energy.

The implication is that a starship carries a huge hypermatter "ballast" of mostly imaginary mass.

I read that. I read pretty clearly why - in order to keep imaginary mass component and real mass component equal ...

Your entire argument is based on that assumption, which is not stated in the literature. It states only that the complex mass is the same, but while this is only one of those "mathematically valid, physically perverse" rationalizations (which still makes it better than 99% of sci-fi FTL theories), this could easily be interpreted as maintaining the same magnitude of complex mass, not necessarily the same phase angle.

Hardly. However, you might show a bit more appreciation for Tesla for his very real impact on your life as a technological human being.

I do appreciate Tesla. AC power is a wonderful thing. But there's a difference between appreciation and blind worship, and bullshit about the man being able to crack planets open qualifies as the latter.

[SirNitram]

I agree that clear observation from the script and the movie contradicts the results of the calculations. It's very simple (and very inflexible) math, and the calculations are correct. Therefore, since observation in the movies trumps theory, the observations are inconsistent with the results of my calculations, and the calculations follow logically from the theory, the theory set forth in the E2ICS is wrong.

Unproven assumption of the calculations, now that I look at them while being more awake, is that the mass is simply balanced to zero. There is no discussion showing this to be so; it could very well push the 'mass' far into the negatives, which as I recall does allow for vast Faster-Than-Light speeds.

[tjhairball]

The movies override the books.

You're still stuck with an arbitrary speed limit between c and 2c that depends on your initial subluminal velocity.

But we know that SW ships can go several million times c, so its a moot point.

My point exactly.

I agree that clear observation from the script and the movie contradicts the results of the calculations. It's very simple (and very inflexible) math, and the calculations are correct. Therefore, since observation in the movies trumps theory, the observations are inconsistent with the results of my calculations, and the calculations follow logically from the theory, the theory set forth in the E2ICS is wrong.

Actually it means that YOU are wrong. Read Mr. Wong's website.

If conclusions following in strict logical fashion from theory A contradict observation B, then provided observation B is correct, theory A is incorrect. You are welcome to run through the basic complex algebra required to produce the nature of hyperspace transit as described by the E2ICS as quoted by SirNitram. I also have been reading through Wong's website and I have thus far failed to find anywhere where he adopts this theory of hyperdrive mechanics.

So, unless I have managed to make a simple algebraic mistake that my trained eyes have not caught upon review of the simple two system equation involved in keeping relativistic complex mass equal, or SirNitram has quoted the E2ICS inaccurately, or the book supercedes the canon of the films, then the E2ICS's description of hyperdrive is inaccurate.

The first is easily checked (see above posts), the second should be taken up with SirNitram if you believe it, and the third you have stated the negation of already - a negation which everybody here seems to agree with.

[Haze Gray]

Read Sir Nitram's last post.

[tjhairball]

Unproven assumption of the calculations, now that I look at them while being more awake, is that the mass is simply balanced to zero. There is no discussion showing this to be so; it could very well push the 'mass' far into the negatives, which as I recall does allow for vast Faster-Than-Light speeds.

By balanced to zero, do you mean equal? That's the assumption I made based on the quote, which states:

without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship.

The thing with the relativistic equations is if you put a negative imaginary rest mass in and a superluminal velocity in, you get a real positive relativistic mass out. Negative or positive mass elements simply become imaginary. In order to keep the same total of mass/energy in both imaginary and real components, there is exactly one ratio of imaginary to real mass/energy for any given magnitude of velocity, and exactly one ending velocity it puts. If one does not change the complex mass and energy during the transition, one cannot avoid these very fixed limitations.

[SirNitram]

Unproven assumption of the calculations, now that I look at them while being more awake, is that the mass is simply balanced to zero. There is no discussion showing this to be so; it could very well push the 'mass' far into the negatives, which as I recall does allow for vast Faster-Than-Light speeds.

By balanced to zero, do you mean equal? That's the assumption I made based on the quote, which states:

without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship.

The thing with the relativistic equations is if you put a negative imaginary rest mass in and a superluminal velocity in, you get a real positive relativistic mass out. Negative or positive mass elements simply become imaginary. In order to keep the same total of mass/energy in both imaginary and real components, there is exactly one ratio of imaginary to real mass/energy for any given magnitude of velocity, and exactly one ending velocity it puts. If one does not change the complex mass and energy during the transition, one cannot avoid these very fixed limitations.

What, the limitation of having only one possible speed for any given combination of negative and positive mass? Yes, that would be why a hyperdrive gives you a set speed, not an acceleration factor. Or did you mean something else, because that appears to be just what you said.

[tjhairball]

This does not, however, contradict anything from the second quote.

Not if you assume that hypermatter is basically hyperdense real matter with the potential to generate imaginary matter in gross quantities on demand.

Acceleration of a planetary mass to 5%c, and not relating to the Death Star - that's another thing I don't remember seeing in the movies.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... eraan.html
Lots of pictures. It's 5% of c.

Emphasis added on previous quote. That wasn't what I was asking for.

Hyperbole, and meaningless hyperbole at that. To "crack" the Earth open only means making a breach in its hard crust, and there are numerous naturally occurring breaches already; we call them volcanoes. This is not remotely comparable to actual planetary destruction.

The brute force application of large amounts of raw energy isn't the only conceivable way to shatter planets.

Prove it. Show how it could be magically done without the quantity of energy necessary to overcome gravitational potential energy.

I do appreciate Tesla. AC power is a wonderful thing. But there's a difference between appreciation and blind worship, and bullshit about the man being able to crack planets open qualifies as the latter.

To crack the earth open "like an apple" is a bit more specific than talking about volcanoes. The methodology Tesla theorized to crack the earth open like an apple involved applied resonance on the earth's natural frequency. Forcing a system at its natural frequency can produce dramatic effects when done right. Tesla would've required a great deal of power for a good length of time to manage this, even so, and I readily admit he may not have had the right magnitude in mind. His documented experiments with trying to find the earth's natural electric (and physical) frequencies are interesting, to say the least. He's on record as the only man to ever have definitively produced an artificial earthquake. We're not talking about blind worship, but informed speculation on what someone smart can work out for cracking up planets.

The easiest fashion is to use pre-existing energy potentials. Any normal rocky planet with an atmosphere will have oodles of untapped energy. Chain reactions are generally favored, such as you appear to accept as working with phasers and disruptors, and other examples, such as seen in Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card, are generally favored for blowing up really big things. Resonance effects are nice, of course, but they tend to take a long time.

The second easiest is through the injection of something "exotic." Beaming in antimatter, opening a direct conduit to a star, rerouting a wormhole of one sort or another, etc.

To simply demolish a world and physically break it up requires far less than vaporizing it and sending it off at 0.05c.

The implication is that a starship carries a huge hypermatter "ballast" of mostly imaginary mass.

I read that. I read pretty clearly why - in order to keep imaginary mass component and real mass component equal ...

Your entire argument is based on that assumption, which is not stated in the literature. It states only that the complex mass is the same, but while this is only one of those "mathematically valid, physically perverse" rationalizations (which still makes it better than 99% of sci-fi FTL theories), this could easily be interpreted as maintaining the same magnitude of complex mass, not necessarily the same phase angle.[/quote]

Actually, I'd say as a very limited system, it has a very nice explanation. As a high speed system, that's a really crappy explanation that seems to result from someone not checking some very simple math.

I'll check on the total complex magnitude as an interpretation anyway, and see how that works out. My intuition is saying it will maximize at 2c, but I should run the algebra and see to be certain this is so.

[tjhairball]

Alright, back from running some quick errands.

I ran some numbers on holding overall magnitude instead of specific complex numbers. Now, I'm assuming by "magnitude," we mean distance from the centerpoint of a complex plane - i.e., where A+Bi, take root of A^2+B^2.

My intuition seems horribly wrong, after all. My apologies to any of you who may have held faith in it.

2c seems impossible to reach. The speed limit holds. When we simplify the issue of magnitude, what we get is the sum of the squares of the initial mass components equals the sum of the squares of the final masses, times the appropriate relativistic modifiers - for example, 2c has a multiplier of 1/3i (multiply relativistic mass times 1/3i and you get rest mass. For any v from zero up to but not including one, this is a quantity greater than or equal to 1; for 1<x<2^0.5, it's an imaginary quantity greater than or equal to one. Taken by total magnitudes, the 1.41c limit holds for transititions on this technique.

[Darth Wong]

2c seems impossible to reach. The speed limit holds. When we simplify the issue of magnitude, what we get is the sum of the squares of the initial mass components equals the sum of the squares of the final masses, times the appropriate relativistic modifiers - for example, 2c has a multiplier of 1/3i (multiply relativistic mass times 1/3i and you get rest mass. For any v from zero up to but not including one, this is a quantity greater than or equal to 1; for 1<x<2^0.5, it's an imaginary quantity greater than or equal to one. Taken by total magnitudes, the 1.41c limit holds for transititions on this technique.

And your evidence for the claim that no mass dilation can possibly occur during hyperspace travel is ...? Especially when relativistic sublight travel (as demonstrated in real-life particle accelerators) causes mass dilation, hence we have successfully broken this zero-dilation condition that you consider to be an immutable and unbreakable law?

[tjhairball]

And your evidence for the claim that no mass dilation can possibly occur during hyperspace travel is ...? Especially when relativistic sublight travel (as demonstrated in real-life particle accelerators) causes mass dilation, hence we have successfully broken this zero-dilation condition that you consider to be an immutable and unbreakable law?

I've made no such claim. Actually, this system is based entirely on mass dilation by speed - that's both the entire point of the complex mass system and its critical mathematical weakness. "Zero dilation," or rather very close to 1.00x dilation effect, occurs at low speeds, which allows maximum effect from a complex mass system.