Swiss Army Knife Lightsaber: Fits the Evidence Better?

[Stofsk]

He did absorb Dooku's second lightning attack, but immediately prior to that Yoda returned fire with a salvo of his own, instead of absorbing or dissipating Dooku's first lightning attack - Dooku couldn't absorb Yoda's FL attack and had to redirect it (so that it hit the ceiling).

No Yoda redirected Dooku's first attack back to Dooku

So what? He still had to throw the lightning back at Dooku. That means having some knowledge of what Force Lightning is, and how to counter it.

And I have problems with this 'redirecting' it back at Dooku. Dooku redirected it, and it hit the ceiling. Yoda seemed to absorb or dissipate it, then threw a salvo back at Dooku. There was definately a slower response from Yoda than there was from Dooku, which makes me think Yoda simply dissipated Dooku's attack and threw one right back at him.

Of course who the fuck cares anyway? Whether it be reactive or proactive, Yoda used Force Lightning. His karma bank suffered a slight withdrawal. Otherwise this isn't a big deal.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No he didn't. He redirected Dooku's first attack. Yes, there was a delay, but he still didn't "make" his own attack.

[Stofsk]

No he didn't. He redirected Dooku's first attack. Yes, there was a delay, but he still didn't "make" his own attack.

So where did Yoda learn how to use Force Lightning? Because even if he redirected it, he would still need to know what it is in order to counter it.

[Slartibartfast]

On Geonisis Anakin is also defending, but then those guys are insect-like.

Meaning what, that alien life is okay to snuff out through brutal violence, but human life is not?? Seems like a pretty cavaliar (not to mention politically expedient) philosophy for the police force of a multi-galactic state with thousands of sentient species.

I (and I think everyone else reading this thread) understood this as meaning that, being insectoid, they would be more fragile or react different to being cut (easier to dismember), but you always seem to understand some kind of evil intent. Why is that?

[Slartibartfast]

No he didn't. He redirected Dooku's first attack. Yes, there was a delay, but he still didn't "make" his own attack.

So where did Yoda learn how to use Force Lightning? Because even if he redirected it, he would still need to know what it is in order to counter it.

It's just a case of catch and throwing back. And it assumes that Jedi have to learn "skills" or "powers" like their WEG counterparts. Yoda just holds it in his hand, presumably it's just raw Force (so he doesn't need any special Jedi School degree in Lightning Attacks) and it's still manifested as the original attack, so he simply redirected it to its point of origin without having to give it a "lightning" shape again (for all we know, concentrated Dark Side force is like lightning by default).

[Kurgan]

Han's cut was with precision, ok, I'll grant that.

But Han isn't even a Jedi! This is the one and only time we've seen a non-Jedi use a lightsaber in canon, so it seems odd that he'd exhibit more control with it than any force user.

Then again if I was using a saber I'd be deliberately slow and careful with it too, perhaps he's just "that good."

It's just odd that he'd have more control over a saber than Luke.



So you're saying, touch somebody with the "tip" of a lightsaber and you'll cut them open, but touch them with any other part and you'll just burn them. And then "push the blade through them" and it may or may not cut off something. I just think its weird that every single one of the guards that Luke hacks into doesn't leave anything more than burned clothing/flesh behind, while his saber dismembers non-living tissue in all other instances.

But this is an interesting idea.

Either sabers REALLY have to be pushed through objects with a lot of force (no "hot knife through butter" effect) to cut them or else it has something to do with "focusing" and holding the saber onto the object in question for a few more msecs to achieve the effect. The trouble is, watching a movie it looks like in most cases the swing speeds are the same. The only differences we get are the facial expressions of the ones doing the swinging to indicate whether he's "swinging hard" or what. But, maybe you're right... but if it's a Force thing it obviously doesn't apply in Han's case.

Slartibartfast

Sorry, it wasn't really explained why "them being insectoid" was relevant, so I just took the interpretation that Anakin would be somehow more murderous fighting insectoids. My mistake. I probably had the "Lucas obviously tones down the 'more human looking deaths' in favor of the PG rating," thing in the back of my mind when I responded too.

[Darth Yoshi]

No he didn't. He redirected Dooku's first attack. Yes, there was a delay, but he still didn't "make" his own attack.

So where did Yoda learn how to use Force Lightning? Because even if he redirected it, he would still need to know what it is in order to counter it.

Not necessarily. In the ROTJ novel, Luke was able to deflect Palpatine's initial volley after coming to the realization that the lightning was created from the Force. Until that moment, Luke didn't even know the Force could be manifested that way, but he was still able to block it. Not that it helped him, since the Emperor just overwhelmed his defense.

[PainRack]

Han's cut was with precision, ok, I'll grant that.

But Han isn't even a Jedi! This is the one and only time we've seen a non-Jedi use a lightsaber in canon, so it seems odd that he'd exhibit more control with it than any force user.

Then again if I was using a saber I'd be deliberately slow and careful with it too, perhaps he's just "that good."

It's just odd that he'd have more control over a saber than Luke.

Luke has barely been trained in the use of a lightsabre, whereas from the EU, we know that Han Solo is skilled in the use of a vibroblade, thus, explaining his skill with cutting.

Either sabers REALLY have to be pushed through objects with a lot of force (no "hot knife through butter" effect) to cut them or else it has something to do with "focusing" and holding the saber onto the object in question for a few more msecs to achieve the effect. The trouble is, watching a movie it looks like in most cases the swing speeds are the same. The only differences we get are the facial expressions of the ones doing the swinging to indicate whether he's "swinging hard" or what. But, maybe you're right... but if it's a Force thing it obviously doesn't apply in Han's case.

We see BOTH happening. Qui Gon has to visibly use larger swings in order to garner more momentum for his attacks that decapicate droids, and we saw Luke slower attacks cut through hand and metal.

[Kurgan]

So Luke's saber may be the culprite, or possibly Luke himself being so unskilled.


As to the Force Lightning issue, the EU seems to think that Lightning is perfectly acceptable for use by "Light Jedi" as long as they use it for good.

Lucas himself seems to be more of the opinion that it's a "bad guy power" is that why we're arguing that Yoda just "bounced it back" rather than used it himself?

I mean, is Yoda having a "Dark Side moment"? It's not impossible for Jedi Masters to be tempted is it? After all we have Dooku...

[Stofsk]

It's just a case of catch and throwing back. And it assumes that Jedi have to learn "skills" or "powers" like their WEG counterparts. Yoda just holds it in his hand, presumably it's just raw Force (so he doesn't need any special Jedi School degree in Lightning Attacks) and it's still manifested as the original attack, so he simply redirected it to its point of origin without having to give it a "lightning" shape again (for all we know, concentrated Dark Side force is like lightning by default).

But the problem with 'catching it and throwing it back' is you have to know what you're catching and throwing. He may not need a 'degree' or whatever, but he would need to know what Force Lightning is in order to counter it. How familiar he'd need to be is unknown.

Not necessarily. In the ROTJ novel, Luke was able to deflect Palpatine's initial volley after coming to the realization that the lightning was created from the Force. Until that moment, Luke didn't even know the Force could be manifested that way, but he was still able to block it. Not that it helped him, since the Emperor just overwhelmed his defense.

All that proves is that there's a counter, known as Force Absorbtion/Dissipation, and that Luke wasn't skilled in it. Yoda certainly was.

But my point is that Absorbtion/Dissipation isn't supposed to shoot it back towards the attacker. We see Absorbtion/Dissipation at work with Vader and Han's blaster, Yoda and Dooku's lightning, and Obi-wan in the cartoon: the energy kind of just 'winks' out of existence. Dooku tried to absorb/dissipate Yoda's return salvo and failed, he could only make it hit the walls.

[Slartibartfast]

But the problem with 'catching it and throwing it back' is you have to know what you're catching and throwing. He may not need a 'degree' or whatever, but he would need to know what Force Lightning is in order to counter it. How familiar he'd need to be is unknown.

That's just an assumption in your part. For all we know, he just needs to know how to manipulate Force in a raw level, not specifically "lightning".

[PainRack]

But the problem with 'catching it and throwing it back' is you have to know what you're catching and throwing. He may not need a 'degree' or whatever, but he would need to know what Force Lightning is in order to counter it. How familiar he'd need to be is unknown.

All that proves is that there's a counter, known as Force Absorbtion/Dissipation, and that Luke wasn't skilled in it. Yoda certainly was.

But my point is that Absorbtion/Dissipation isn't supposed to shoot it back towards the attacker. We see Absorbtion/Dissipation at work with Vader and Han's blaster, Yoda and Dooku's lightning, and Obi-wan in the cartoon: the energy kind of just 'winks' out of existence. Dooku tried to absorb/dissipate Yoda's return salvo and failed, he could only make it hit the walls.

Actually, IIRC, the quote made it clear he deflected the shot off him. Even so, the dubious Crystal Eye novel(the one written before TESB was shown), had Luke skywalker deflecting Vader "white powerball".

[Stofsk]

Actually, IIRC, the quote made it clear he deflected the shot off him.

If you're talking about ROTJ novel then yes, Luke met with initial success, and he made the Emperor's Force Lightning "rebounding from his touch, harmlessly into the walls." That still doesn't change the fact he failed to maintain his defence, and once again we see skilled users familiar with this technique use it to a sophisticated degree.

[Kurgan]

Actually, IIRC, the quote made it clear he deflected the shot off him. Even so, the dubious Crystal Eye novel(the one written before TESB was shown), had Luke skywalker deflecting Vader "white powerball".

Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Which is considered official level with the rest of the EU (read the introduction, it's regarded as the "first" of such continuation novels, by Lucas). But yeah...

[PainRack]

Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Which is considered official level with the rest of the EU (read the introduction, it's regarded as the "first" of such continuation novels, by Lucas). But yeah...

Thanks, I keep mixing up that novel name.