Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

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Stravo
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Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

Post by Stravo »

MOORE'S THE PITY

By JONATHAN FOREMAN

June 23, 2004 -- For all its clever slickness, Michael Moore's "Fahren heit 9/11" does not stack up to such brilliant but evil art as Leni Riefenstahl's propaganda films for Hitler. But it is art in the sense that any piece of effective political propaganda — Julius Streicher's "Der Sturmer" magazine, the famous Che poster from Alberto Korda's photo, even the anti-Goldwater mushroom-cloud TV ad put out by LBJ — can be taken as art.

Alert critics will doubtless point out its artistic flaws. For example, its most moving sequence — which features audio from the World Trade Center attacks played over a black screen — is a direct ripoff of Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu's 11-minute segment in the 2003 film "9/11/01"

What makes "Fahrenheit 9/11" notable is that feature-length movie-house agitprop is a relatively rare and new thing, and that so far it has been treated (for instance by the Cannes Film Festival jury) as something more than the clever (if breathtakingly sleazy) political propaganda that it is.

And the film does offer some valuable lessons for everyone — though not in its topics: 9/11, Osama bin Laden, Iraq, the "stolen" 2000 election, the Bush administration's fondness for the Saudis, the U.S. armed forces' supposed recruiting from the "starving" unemployed masses or any of the mutually exclusive conspiracy theories the movie puts forward.

No, the lessons of "Fahrenheit 9/11" have to do with the general degradation of our political discourse, the gross dishonesty of our most feted "documentary" filmmaker and with what Michael Moore's super-popularity in Hollywood and France adds to what we already know about the ignorance and intellectual poverty of the movie industry and the pathetic, spiteful hostility of our French "allies."

That said, the Bush administration might want to consider how the Department of Homeland Security's silly color-coded terror alerts play neatly into the hands of its most paranoid or devious opponents (especially when those alerts coincide with adverse poll results).

And the "forgotten" soldiers who have lost arms and legs in the Iraq and Afghan wars (there's some moving footage of amputees) should neither be forgotten nor remembered only by people like Moore, who would use that suffering for their own ends.

But you certainly don't have to be a fan of Bush or his policies to be offended by "Fahrenheit 9/11" lies, half-lies and distortions, or by Moore's shockingly low expectations of his audience:

* Moore's favorite anti-administration interviewee is former National Security Council aide Richard Clarke. Yet the film never mentions that it was Clarke who gave the order to spirit the bin Laden family out of America immediately after 9/11. Moore makes much of this mystery; why didn't he ask Clarke about it ?

* At one point of the film, he portrays GIs as moronic savages who work themselves up with music before setting out to kill. Later, he depicts them as proletarian victims of a cynical ruling class, who deserve sympathy and honor for their sacrifice.

* The film's amusing (if bordering on racist) Saudi-bashing sequences rely for their effect on the audience having forgotten that President Bill Clinton was every bit as friendly with Prince Bandar (or "Bandar Bush," as Moore calls him) and the Saudi monarchy as his successor. In general, the movie is packed with points that Moore assumes his audience will never check, or are either lies or cleverly hedged half-lies:

* Moore says that the Saudis have paid the Bush family $1.4 billion. But wait —the Bushes aren't billionaires. If you watch the film a second time you'll note Moore saying that they paid $1.4 billion to the Bush family and (added very quietly and quickly) its friends and associates.

* Moore asserts that the Afghan war was fought only to enable the Unocal company to build a pipeline. In fact, Unocal dropped that idea back in August 1998. Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are looking at the idea now, but nothing has come of it so far, and in any case Unocal has nothing to do with it.

* In a "congressmen with no kids at war" stunt, Moore claims that no one in Congress has a son or daughter fighting in America's armed services, then approaches several congressmen in the street and asks them to sign up and send their kids to Iraq. His claim would certainly surprise Sgt. Brooks Johnson of the 101st Airborne, the son of Sen. Tim Johnson (D-S.D.). And for that matter the active-duty sons of Sen. Joseph Biden and Attorney General John Ashcroft, among others.

The most offensive sequence in "Fahrenheit 9/11"'s long two hours lasts only a few minutes. It's Moore's file-footage depiction of happy Iraq before the Americans began their supposedly pointless invasion. You see men sitting in cafes, kids flying kites, women shopping. Cut to bombs exploding at night.

What Moore presumably doesn't know, or simply doesn't care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis weren't allowed to visit — on pain of death.

And if Moore weren't a (left-wing) version of the fat, bigoted, ignorant Americans his European friends love to mock, he'd know that prewar Iraq was ruled by a regime that had forced a sixth of its population into fearful exile, that hanged dissidents (real dissidents, not people like Susan Sontag and Tim Robbins) from meathooks and tortured them with blowtorches, and filled thousands of mass graves with the bodies of its massacred citizens.

Yes, children played, women shopped and men sat in cafes while that stuff went on — just as people did all those normal things in Somoza's Nicaragua, Duvalier's Haiti and for that matter Nazi Germany, and as they do just about everywhere, including in Iraq today.

Moore has defended deliberate inaccuracies in his prior films by claiming that satirists don't have to tell the exact truth. Fair enough. But if you take the lies, half-lies and distortions out "Fahrenheit 9/11," there isn't much of anything left.
From the NY Post today. What is it about the right wing that they feel that they must poison the well on this movie as they did with Bowling for Columbine? I listened to their bullshit for BforC and did not watch it until fairly recently and waited for the stream of lies and bullshit but was surprised to find myself agreeing with much of what Moore had to say, in particular his thesis on the culture of fear in America. The right wingers and gun nuts would have us think that the movie was all about defaming the NRA.

So what is it about this film that a cavalcade of conservatives and Bush fans are chomping at the bit about the pile of lies that mar Moore's treasonous films. In the same paper there was an article right beneath this one titled: "Remember when Hollywood loved America?"

The guy's points are all fucking tagental and do not by any means refute Moore's central point or arguments. I love how he attacks a handful of points but this two hour movie is suddenly completely debunked. I smell bullshit. I also smell fear.
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Post by tharkûn »

* In a "congressmen with no kids at war" stunt, Moore claims that no one in Congress has a son or daughter fighting in America's armed services, then approaches several congressmen in the street and asks them to sign up and send their kids to Iraq. His claim would certainly surprise Sgt. Brooks Johnson of the 101st Airborne, the son of Sen. Tim Johnson (D-S.D.). And for that matter the active-duty sons of Sen. Joseph Biden and Attorney General John Ashcroft, among others.
So did they catch Moore outright lying or just being an oblivious dumbass?

Is it poisoning the well? No more than happened with The Passion of the Christ (I'm still waiting for anti-semetic violence to be linked to the film like I heard so many freaking times) or any other controversial film. Let's face it if you want to make certain points, expect to get raked over the coals. If you think being directly contradicted by fact doesn't impair the Moore movie, then fine go see it. If you think Moore's documentary (or op-ed peice or whatever the hell he calls it now) is a sack of BS, then fine don't see it. Either way expecting it not to be scrutinized, regaled, and denigrated by the appropriate partisans, you are missing out on reality.

If Moore's film didn't get this type of review I'd be surprised.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

And so it begins...
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* Moore's favorite anti-administration interviewee is former National Security Council aide Richard Clarke. Yet the film never mentions that it was Clarke who gave the order to spirit the bin Laden family out of America immediately after 9/11. Moore makes much of this mystery; why didn't he ask Clarke about it ?
Maybe because Clarke wouldn't tell him? Jesus, does this guy really think that no one up until this point sniffed this out? The Bush administration repeatedly refused to answer questions as to why exactly the bin Ladens were flown out and kept under guard, and that's the point! Moore isn't so interested in why exactly it was done (no one will tell him) as the repeated refusals to even address the question.
* At one point of the film, he portrays GIs as moronic savages who work themselves up with music before setting out to kill. Later, he depicts them as proletarian victims of a cynical ruling class, who deserve sympathy and honor for their sacrifice.
I'll wait until I see the film to comment.
* The film's amusing (if bordering on racist) Saudi-bashing sequences rely for their effect on the audience having forgotten that President Bill Clinton was every bit as friendly with Prince Bandar (or "Bandar Bush," as Moore calls him) and the Saudi monarchy as his successor. In general, the movie is packed with points that Moore assumes his audience will never check, or are either lies or cleverly hedged half-lies:
Aaaah, the standard, right-wing, "OMG CLINTON DID IT TOO!!!!" evasion bullshit.
* Moore says that the Saudis have paid the Bush family $1.4 billion. But wait —the Bushes aren't billionaires. If you watch the film a second time you'll note Moore saying that they paid $1.4 billion to the Bush family and (added very quietly and quickly) its friends and associates.
Uh huh. I'll wait until I see the film to judge just how "quietly and quickly" Moore slips in that part rather than take the word of someone who bashes Clinton whenever he can't defend Bush.
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Post by Gandalf »

What Moore presumably doesn't know, or simply doesn't care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis weren't allowed to visit ? on pain of death.
Ordinary Iraqis weren't allowed there? Wow.

Otherwise, I'll wait until I see the movie for a judgement.
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Post by The Kernel »

Most of that is nitpicks at best.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:And so it begins...
Here's a gun, shoot yourself in the head with it, I forsee much
strife on this forum involving 9/11.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

MKSheppard wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:And so it begins...
Here's a gun, shoot yourself in the head with it, I forsee much
strife on this forum involving 9/11.
I survived the BfC fiasco, I'm sure I can live through this one.

I'm sitting on the fence for now. I don't particularly like Moore, but he has some good points and I'm eager to see F9/11 when it comes out over here in the beginning of July. Then I shall make my opinions known and only then.
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Re: Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

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Stravo wrote:From the NY Post today. What is it about the right wing that they feel that they must poison the well on this movie as they did with Bowling for Columbine?.
Even Slate is trashing it:

One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? Where was the radical Firing Line show? Who will be our Rush Limbaugh? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight.

Nonetheless, it seems that an answer to this long-felt need is finally beginning to emerge. I exempt Al Franken's unintentionally funny Air America network, to which I gave a couple of interviews in its early days. There, one could hear the reassuring noise of collapsing scenery and tripped-over wires and be reminded once again that correct politics and smooth media presentation are not even distant cousins. With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. Here we glimpse a possible fusion between the turgid routines of MoveOn.org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl.

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

2) Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

3) The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

4) The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

5) The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

6) The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)

It must be evident to anyone, despite the rapid-fire way in which Moore's direction eases the audience hastily past the contradictions, that these discrepant scatter shots do not cohere at any point. Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. (They opposed the removal, all right: They wouldn't even let Tony Blair land his own plane on their soil at the time of the operation.) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr. Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar—an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building—is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left—like the parties of the Iraqi secular left—are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

He prefers leaden sarcasm to irony and, indeed, may not appreciate the distinction. In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film, he makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. 11. I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. And Richard Clarke, Bush's former chief of counterterrorism, has come forward to say that he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures. This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that—as you might expect—Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies."

A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing planner for future aggressive wars?) But the shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.

The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say—that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box.

But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that's not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)

That this—his pro-American moment—was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)

Thus, in spite of the film's loaded bias against the work of the mind, you can grasp even while watching it that Michael Moore has just said, in so many words, the one thing that no reflective or informed person can possibly believe: that Saddam Hussein was no problem. No problem at all. Now look again at the facts I have cited above. If these things had been allowed to happen under any other administration, you can be sure that Moore and others would now glibly be accusing the president of ignoring, or of having ignored, some fairly unmistakable "warnings."

The same "let's have it both ways" opportunism infects his treatment of another very serious subject, namely domestic counterterrorist policy. From being accused of overlooking too many warnings—not exactly an original point—the administration is now lavishly taunted for issuing too many. (Would there not have been "fear" if the harbingers of 9/11 had been taken seriously?) We are shown some American civilians who have had absurd encounters with idiotic "security" staff. (Have you ever met anyone who can't tell such a story?) Then we are immediately shown underfunded police departments that don't have the means or the manpower to do any stop-and-search: a power suddenly demanded by Moore on their behalf that we know by definition would at least lead to some ridiculous interrogations. Finally, Moore complains that there isn't enough intrusion and confiscation at airports and says that it is appalling that every air traveler is not forcibly relieved of all matches and lighters. (Cue mood music for sinister influence of Big Tobacco.) So—he wants even more pocket-rummaging by airport officials? Uh, no, not exactly. But by this stage, who's counting? Moore is having it three ways and asserting everything and nothing. Again—simply not serious.

Circling back to where we began, why did Moore's evil Saudis not join "the Coalition of the Willing"? Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other's pockets, as is alleged in a sort of vulgar sub-Brechtian scene with Arab headdresses replacing top hats, then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad? The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq's recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film's "theory." Perhaps Moore prefers the pro-Saudi Kissinger/Scowcroft plan for the Middle East, where stability trumps every other consideration and where one dare not upset the local house of cards, or killing-field of Kurds? This would be a strange position for a purported radical. Then again, perhaps he does not take this conservative line because his real pitch is not to any audience member with a serious interest in foreign policy. It is to the provincial isolationist.

I have already said that Moore's film has the staunch courage to mock Bush for his verbal infelicity. Yet it's much, much braver than that. From Fahrenheit 9/11 you can glean even more astounding and hidden disclosures, such as the capitalist nature of American society, the existence of Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex," and the use of "spin" in the presentation of our politicians. It's high time someone had the nerve to point this out. There's more. Poor people often volunteer to join the army, and some of them are duskier than others. Betcha didn't know that. Back in Flint, Mich., Moore feels on safe ground. There are no martyred rabbits this time. Instead, it's the poor and black who shoulder the packs and rifles and march away. I won't dwell on the fact that black Americans have fought for almost a century and a half, from insisting on their right to join the U.S. Army and fight in the Civil War to the right to have a desegregated Army that set the pace for post-1945 civil rights. I'll merely ask this: In the film, Moore says loudly and repeatedly that not enough troops were sent to garrison Afghanistan and Iraq. (This is now a favorite cleverness of those who were, in the first place, against sending any soldiers at all.) Well, where does he think those needful heroes and heroines would have come from? Does he favor a draft—the most statist and oppressive solution? Does he think that only hapless and gullible proles sign up for the Marines? Does he think—as he seems to suggest—that parents can "send" their children, as he stupidly asks elected members of Congress to do? Would he have abandoned Gettysburg because the Union allowed civilians to pay proxies to serve in their place? Would he have supported the antidraft (and very antiblack) riots against Lincoln in New York? After a point, one realizes that it's a waste of time asking him questions of this sort. It would be too much like taking him seriously. He'll just try anything once and see if it floats or flies or gets a cheer.

Indeed, Moore's affected and ostentatious concern for black America is one of the most suspect ingredients of his pitch package. In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell. The Pennsylvania drama also reminds one of the self-evident fact that this war is not fought only "overseas" or in uniform, but is being brought to our cities. Yet Moore is a silly and shady man who does not recognize courage of any sort even when he sees it because he cannot summon it in himself. To him, easy applause, in front of credulous audiences, is everything.

Moore has announced that he won't even appear on TV shows where he might face hostile questioning. I notice from the New York Times of June 20 that he has pompously established a rapid response team, and a fact-checking staff, and some tough lawyers, to bulwark himself against attack. He'll sue, Moore says, if anyone insults him or his pet. Some right-wing hack groups, I gather, are planning to bring pressure on their local movie theaters to drop the film. How dumb or thuggish do you have to be in order to counter one form of stupidity and cowardice with another? By all means go and see this terrible film, and take your friends, and if the fools in the audience strike up one cry, in favor of surrender or defeat, feel free to join in the conversation.

However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point. And as for the scary lawyers—get a life, or maybe see me in court. But I offer this, to Moore and to his rapid response rabble. Any time, Michael my boy. Let's redo Telluride. Any show. Any place. Any platform. Let's see what you're made of.

Some people soothingly say that one should relax about all this. It's only a movie. No biggie. It's no worse than the tomfoolery of Oliver Stone. It's kick-ass entertainment. It might even help get out "the youth vote." Yeah, well, I have myself written and presented about a dozen low-budget made-for-TV documentaries, on subjects as various as Mother Teresa and Bill Clinton and the Cyprus crisis, and I also helped produce a slightly more polished one on Henry Kissinger that was shown in movie theaters. So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft. If you flatter and fawn upon your potential audience, I might add, you are patronizing them and insulting them. By the same token, if I write an article and I quote somebody and for space reasons put in an ellipsis like this (…), I swear on my children that I am not leaving out anything that, if quoted in full, would alter the original meaning or its significance. Those who violate this pact with readers or viewers are to be despised. At no point does Michael Moore make the smallest effort to be objective. At no moment does he pass up the chance of a cheap sneer or a jeer. He pitilessly focuses his camera, for minutes after he should have turned it off, on a distraught and bereaved mother whose grief we have already shared. (But then, this is the guy who thought it so clever and amusing to catch Charlton Heston, in Bowling for Columbine, at the onset of his senile dementia.) Such courage.

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture. Rock the vote, indeed.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Moore's favorite anti-administration interviewee is former National Security Council aide Richard Clarke. Yet the film never mentions that it was Clarke who gave the order to spirit the bin Laden family out of America immediately after 9/11. Moore makes much of this mystery; why didn't he ask Clarke about it ?
?

How is this a "mystery?" It strikes me as obvious that the government didn't want the innocent bin Laden family to become the target of vicious mob reprisals.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

How is this a "mystery?" It strikes me as obvious that the government didn't want the innocent bin Laden family to become the target of vicious mob reprisals.
For some reason there's this idea that the family of Osama bin Laden must share his beliefs, but it's NOT REMOTELY accurate. Not only is it logically fallacious, but it's simply not true. Every member of the bin Laden family I've heard speak on the matter says that they hate Osama, and most of them think he should be killed for his crimes.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Master of Ossus wrote:
How is this a "mystery?" It strikes me as obvious that the government didn't want the innocent bin Laden family to become the target of vicious mob reprisals.
For some reason there's this idea that the family of Osama bin Laden must share his beliefs, but it's NOT REMOTELY accurate. Not only is it logically fallacious, but it's simply not true. Every member of the bin Laden family I've heard speak on the matter says that they hate Osama, and most of them think he should be killed for his crimes.
Actually, the funny thing is that Michael Moore, as usual distorts the basic facts. His claim that members of the Bin-Laden family were flown out of the country over the objections of the FBI and with out interveiws hasn't been substantiated.

The Snopes link

And further more, I know of known one out there that's ever come forward to back up Moore's claims.
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Post by Stormbringer »

I'll wait for judgement on Farenheit 9-11 until I see it. But the fact is if it's like Bowling for Columbine I don't expect much more than the usual bad logic, iffy editing, and oblique slandering. The fact that he's played so many games with it doesn't sound promising.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

I'm willing to watch it, since it seems to get people talking, but again the consistent trend in the reviews is that it follows his usual MO of somewhat less-than-perfect journalistic integrity and somewhat eclectic collection of points designed to create a general impression.
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Post by Elfdart »

Master of Ossus wrote:
How is this a "mystery?" It strikes me as obvious that the government didn't want the innocent bin Laden family to become the target of vicious mob reprisals.
For some reason there's this idea that the family of Osama bin Laden must share his beliefs, but it's NOT REMOTELY accurate. Not only is it logically fallacious, but it's simply not true. Every member of the bin Laden family I've heard speak on the matter says that they hate Osama, and most of them think he should be killed for his crimes.
True, but for the FBI to not interview them thoroughly was criminal. How many Bin Ladens say their family's black sheep deserves to die, but still might have clues of his whereabouts? Sure, it could be a dry well, but you can't find out for sure if you don't ask.

Will politicians ever learn? Kennedy came somewhat clean about the Bay of Pigs and the people supported him in spite of his fucking up. But every time since, when someone gets caught doing something illegal, immoral or just plain stupid, they lie and are made to look like even bigger assholes. If Bush had simply admitted that he had no idea of the scale of the attacks, that he didn't think the Bin Ladens had any useful information and so on... It would be kind of hard for anyone from Michael Moore to John Kerry to bust his balls over the issue, wouldn't it?

I'll take Moore's track record of veracity over that of Bush and his minions, most of the media and assorted right-wing mouth-breathers. For a dittohead to knock Moore for twisting, manipulating or just making shit up is like being called foul-mouthed by fans of Andrew "Dice" Clay.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Elfdart wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
How is this a "mystery?" It strikes me as obvious that the government didn't want the innocent bin Laden family to become the target of vicious mob reprisals.
For some reason there's this idea that the family of Osama bin Laden must share his beliefs, but it's NOT REMOTELY accurate. Not only is it logically fallacious, but it's simply not true. Every member of the bin Laden family I've heard speak on the matter says that they hate Osama, and most of them think he should be killed for his crimes.
True, but for the FBI to not interview them thoroughly was criminal. How many Bin Ladens say their family's black sheep deserves to die, but still might have clues of his whereabouts? Sure, it could be a dry well, but you can't find out for sure if you don't ask.
Except there's nothing except Moore's claim to support the notion that the Bin Laden family was allowed to leave the US with out being interveiwed.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

True, but for the FBI to not interview them thoroughly was criminal.
You gotta be shitting me. There's NO evidence that ANY of them have ANY contact with Osama at all. Yet you want to detain these people, potentially at the risk of human life, in an effort to get information out of them? Why don't we detain the entire population of Afghanistan and ask them all if they've seen Osama recently?
How many Bin Ladens say their family's black sheep deserves to die, but still might have clues of his whereabouts?
None.
Sure, it could be a dry well, but you can't find out for sure if you don't ask.
You seem to be under the impression that the FBI had never spoken with any of Osama's family previously, which is not true.
Will politicians ever learn? Kennedy came somewhat clean about the Bay of Pigs and the people supported him in spite of his fucking up. But every time since, when someone gets caught doing something illegal, immoral or just plain stupid, they lie and are made to look like even bigger assholes. If Bush had simply admitted that he had no idea of the scale of the attacks, that he didn't think the Bin Ladens had any useful information and so on...
I don't really know much about this particular story, but is there any evidence that Bush was the one who ordered them out of the country? It seems like that was Clark's doing.
It would be kind of hard for anyone from Michael Moore to John Kerry to bust his balls over the issue, wouldn't it?
John Kerry isn't busting anyone's balls over anything. As for Michael Moore, his attack on this particular issue so far seems petty and meaningless. I've heard claims that his treatment of Saudis in the film borders on racism, but frankly little warning sirens should be going off in people's heads when he tries to show there's any continuing communication between Osama and the rest of his family.
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Post by Elfdart »

Stormbringer wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: For some reason there's this idea that the family of Osama bin Laden must share his beliefs, but it's NOT REMOTELY accurate. Not only is it logically fallacious, but it's simply not true. Every member of the bin Laden family I've heard speak on the matter says that they hate Osama, and most of them think he should be killed for his crimes.
True, but for the FBI to not interview them thoroughly was criminal. How many Bin Ladens say their family's black sheep deserves to die, but still might have clues of his whereabouts? Sure, it could be a dry well, but you can't find out for sure if you don't ask.
Except there's nothing except Moore's claim to support the notion that the Bin Laden family was allowed to leave the US with out being interveiwed.
The claim wasn't made up by Michael Moore. The claim comes from Jack Cloonan, an agent on the join FBI/ CIA team on Al Quaeda.
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Post by Elfdart »

Master of Ossus wrote:
True, but for the FBI to not interview them thoroughly was criminal.
You gotta be shitting me. There's NO evidence that ANY of them have ANY contact with Osama at all. Yet you want to detain these people, potentially at the risk of human life, in an effort to get information out of them? Why don't we detain the entire population of Afghanistan and ask them all if they've seen Osama recently?
How many Bin Ladens say their family's black sheep deserves to die, but still might have clues of his whereabouts?
None.


How do you know this?
Master of Ossus wrote:
Sure, it could be a dry well, but you can't find out for sure if you don't ask.
You seem to be under the impression that the FBI had never spoken with any of Osama's family previously, which is not true.
Never spoken with them? I don't know about that, but if someone with my last name had slaughtered thousands of innocent people, I could and should reasonably expect to questioned thoroughly by the authorities. When Timothy McVeigh was arrested, the FBI was all over his family (his sister in particular) like Old Navy on white trash.
Master of Ossus wrote:
Will politicians ever learn? Kennedy came somewhat clean about the Bay of Pigs and the people supported him in spite of his fucking up. But every time since, when someone gets caught doing something illegal, immoral or just plain stupid, they lie and are made to look like even bigger assholes. If Bush had simply admitted that he had no idea of the scale of the attacks, that he didn't think the Bin Ladens had any useful information and so on...
I don't really know much about this particular story, but is there any evidence that Bush was the one who ordered them out of the country? It seems like that was Clark's doing.
It would be kind of hard for anyone from Michael Moore to John Kerry to bust his balls over the issue, wouldn't it?
John Kerry isn't busting anyone's balls over anything. As for Michael Moore, his attack on this particular issue so far seems petty and meaningless. I've heard claims that his treatment of Saudis in the film borders on racism, but frankly little warning sirens should be going off in people's heads when he tries to show there's any continuing communication between Osama and the rest of his family.
The racism canard was pulled out of the ass of a hack writer for the New York Post, a rag that makes The Weekly World News look like The Wall Street Journal. That dog won't hunt.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Elfdart wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:None.
How do you know this?
1. If they did know, they would have said something already.
2. Why would they risk associating with Osama? These are not dumb people.
3. There's no evidence WHATSOEVER that they know where Osama is. You conveniently skip this little detail, and demand that I supply proof of a negative.
Master of Ossus wrote:You seem to be under the impression that the FBI had never spoken with any of Osama's family previously, which is not true.
Never spoken with them? I don't know about that, but if someone with my last name had slaughtered thousands of innocent people, I could and should reasonably expect to questioned thoroughly by the authorities. When Timothy McVeigh was arrested, the FBI was all over his family (his sister in particular) like Old Navy on white trash.[/quote]

What a false analogy! I know a McVeigh family who lives a few blocks away from me. Where was the FBI after Oklahoma City?

More importantly, though, Tim McVeigh was not estranged. His dad and several other members of the family enjoyed somewhat-regular communications with him. Moreover, they were looking for evidence to use against him, and not looking for information regarding the whereabouts of their son.

Let's review:

Elfdart doesn't care if the bin Laden family had been interviewed in the past.

Elfdart can't show that there was ANY evidence, beyond guilt-by-NAME-association, that the bin Ladens knew where Osama was.

Elfdart doesn't care that Osama had been estranged for years. They still could've had information withheld from all but the most trusted Al Qaeda members, and usually even them. Namely, the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

Elfdart thinks that the fact the FBI didn't talk with the bin Ladens BEFORE they flew out of the country was "thoroughly criminal."
Master of Ossus wrote:I don't really know much about this particular story, but is there any evidence that Bush was the one who ordered them out of the country? It seems like that was Clark's doing.

Strange. You didn't even seem to ATTEMPT to answer that point about how Clark may have ordered the bin Ladens out of the country without Bush's knowledge or consent, yet you placed responsibility for the decision on Bush, earlier. Am I to take this as a concession?
The racism canard was pulled out of the ass of a hack writer for the New York Post, a rag that makes The Weekly World News look like The Wall Street Journal. That dog won't hunt.
In other words, you can't argue against the fact that the bin Laden family as a whole has nothing to do with Osama, so instead you resort to red-herring nitpicks that have little if anything to do with the crux of the argument.
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Re: Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

Post by The_Nice_Guy »

MKSheppard wrote:snip
Oh, that piece by Chris Hitchens. I wonder if Moore will dare take up his challenge of a debate. Moore's destruction at Hitchen's hands(and mouth) would be spectacular.

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Re: Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

Post by Symmetry »

Stravo wrote: From the NY Post today. What is it about the right wing that they feel that they must poison the well on this movie as they did with Bowling for Columbine?
If you think this is bad, you should read what a certain left-winger at Slate is saying.
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Re: Farenheight 9/11 debunked?

Post by Vympel »

The_Nice_Guy wrote:
Oh, that piece by Chris Hitchens. I wonder if Moore will dare take up his challenge of a debate. Moore's destruction at Hitchen's hands(and mouth) would be spectacular.

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Judging from Hitchen's piss poor propagandizing and half-truths of his own in that article, it'd be like watching two blind men trying to beat the shit out of each other.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

well, it opens here tomorrow, and as much as i don't want to put money in that fat cumstain's pocket a few friends have expressed interest in seeing it, so i may tag along. I'll just drink a few extra beers afterward to wash away the nastyness.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Elfdart wrote:The claim wasn't made up by Michael Moore. The claim comes from Jack Cloonan, an agent on the join FBI/ CIA team on Al Quaeda.
I didn't say that Moore made the claim up (though I don't know how Mr Cloonan and Moore's match up). I'm simply pointing out that Moore has made this claim in Stupid White Men and has been spouting it (along with a good percentage of liberal pundits) as truth ever since when even Bush Administration whistleblowers like Richard Clarke have contradicted his claim.
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