What would a lightsaber do to a changeling?

[General Zod]

Unless you're proposing that a single Cardassian phaser in the primary universe has as much power per shot as the dozens of Klingon disruptors that needed half a dozen shots each to explode the Gowron changeling.

think about this for a moment. cardassian phasers and klingon phasers are completely different, thus are likely to be of different power levels.

i'm talking mirror verse cardassian phasers vs regular universe cardassian phasers. you're the one claiming cardassian phasers in the mirror verse are more powerful than cardassian phasers in the regular universe. therefore it would fall to you to provide evidence that they're more powerful.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Odo simply exploded when hit with a cardassian phaser blast. This was in the mirror universe though.

why would it make any difference which universe, given that the races are identical in every physical aspect in both universes

I don't think it does make a difference. I just said that for accuracy.

[Kurgan]

Odo simply exploded when hit with a cardassian phaser blast. This was in the mirror universe though.

why would it make any difference which universe, given that the races are identical in every physical aspect in both universes

It could very well be that in the mirror universe their disruptors/phasers are simply more powerful or routinely set to higher settings than in the more docile, politically correct and diplomatic "normal universe" we're used to.

----------------

We've never seen lightsabers make people explode (via earlier comment) so I'd go with the "depends on what state the changeling is in." If it's gooey, then it would probably be the same as using your lightsaber on a load of jell-o, seperate it and muck up the stuff in the center with some burnage.

If they're in humanoid form then it would be like a humanoid (as we've seen in Star Wars).

We're having a discussion about sabers in the PSW forum though and I'm thinking more and more than Luke's saber simply sucks, because we've never seen it dismember anyone (except Vader's mechanical hand).

[Kurgan]

As far as proof, there is none, other than the spectacular effect of the weapon in the mirror universe never seen before in the normal universe.

But the people in the Mirror Universe seem to be a lot nastier, they are more ready to do violence, more aggressive, etc, so making their weapons nastier simply fits their character.

Though maybe Odo made himself into some other kind of material while he was working in the mines and this just happened to make him explode like a powder keg when shot?


Then again I think one theory put forth on this issue (can't remember where I read it) is that since Odo is simply an "amateur" changeling, he just can't control his form as efficiently as the Founders, so maybe that's just what happens when you shoot Odo.

[Metrion Cascade]

Unless you're proposing that a single Cardassian phaser in the primary universe has as much power per shot as the dozens of Klingon disruptors that needed half a dozen shots each to explode the Gowron changeling.

think about this for a moment. cardassian phasers and klingon phasers are completely different, thus are likely to be of different power levels.

Not so different that a Cardassian weapon is hundreds of times more powerful per shot. Especially considering the Cardassians have demonstrated a lower industrial capacity. They have nothing on par with the Vor'cha or Regency class.

i'm talking mirror verse cardassian phasers vs regular universe cardassian phasers. you're the one claiming cardassian phasers in the mirror verse are more powerful than cardassian phasers in the regular universe. therefore it would fall to you to provide evidence that they're more powerful.

The evidence is that a changeling exploded with one shot from it, when in the normal universe the Cardassians are less powerful and less warlike than the Klingons.

Find me a single example of any Cardassian hand weapon in the normal universe doing hundreds of times as much damage as a Klingon disruptor in one shot.

[Metrion Cascade]

As far as proof, there is none, other than the spectacular effect of the weapon in the mirror universe never seen before in the normal universe.

But the people in the Mirror Universe seem to be a lot nastier, they are more ready to do violence, more aggressive, etc, so making their weapons nastier simply fits their character.

Though maybe Odo made himself into some other kind of material while he was working in the mines and this just happened to make him explode like a powder keg when shot?


Then again I think one theory put forth on this issue (can't remember where I read it) is that since Odo is simply an "amateur" changeling, he just can't control his form as efficiently as the Founders, so maybe that's just what happens when you shoot Odo.

Entirely possible - I think particle weapons kill changelings by dumping more energy into them than they can radiate or turn to mass in the same amount of time. Odo would be easier to kill.

[General Zod]

The evidence is that a changeling exploded with one shot from it, when in the normal universe the Cardassians are less powerful and less warlike than the Klingons.

Find me a single example of any Cardassian hand weapon in the normal universe doing hundreds of times as much damage as a Klingon disruptor in one shot.

what in the hell does cardassian weapons being more powerful than klingon ones have to do with cardassian weapons in the mirror universe being more powerful than cardassian weapons in the regular universe, when i've been talking about the cardassian weapons in both universes this entire time?

[Howedar]

Well, considering the Changeling could BE the door, yes. And the Changeling wouldn't have to be conventionally 'tough' - simply apply the energy to mimicking hotter metal. Melting and glowing isn't 'destruction' for a changeling.

Any numbers on how powerful Klingon disruptors are?

Please provide evidence that being heated to incandescence is not harmful for a Founder.

[Kurgan]

The evidence is that a changeling exploded with one shot from it, when in the normal universe the Cardassians are less powerful and less warlike than the Klingons.

Find me a single example of any Cardassian hand weapon in the normal universe doing hundreds of times as much damage as a Klingon disruptor in one shot.

what in the hell does cardassian weapons being more powerful than klingon ones have to do with cardassian weapons in the mirror universe being more powerful than cardassian weapons in the regular universe, when i've been talking about the cardassian weapons in both universes this entire time?

It's difficult because of the lack of "founder kills" in the canon. On the one hand we have the "one shot kill" explosive death of Mirror Universe Odo with the Bajoran (?) phaser. Then we have the Founder being killed only after dozens of hits from multiple Klingon hand disruptors in the "normal" Universe.

So we have put forth some ideas to explain the apparent discrepencies:

1) Bajoran Mirror Universe phasers are simply that much more powerful than Klingon normal universe hand disruptors.

2) The Mirror Universe gun was set to the highest kill setting, but the Klingon guns were set to a low setting (or perhaps they CAN'T go any higher than a certain setting). It's not entirely impossible, since the regular universe characters seem to have no psychological qualms about "killing" their other selves (with the exception of Sisko and his wife's doppelganger), so setting it for kill instead of the usual stun, etc.
Then we have examples of Klingon stupidity throughout the series, perhaps Klingons routinely make their guns weaker for a "challenge" or don't bother to make them stronger since they usually resort to their melee weapons in battle anyway. And this room full of Klingons was getting drunk and slapping each other around until just a few seconds before the Changeling was revealed...

3) Odo, being an amateur shapeshifter simply can't form objects of durable strength and lacks the endurance of the Founders. We've seen numerous times and heard numerous times how the Founders are superior at shape shifting, older, wiser, etc. So perhaps Odo simply is just easier to kill. Maybe his "humanoid shape" we're used to is actually very unstable, and a kill level phaser blast was enough to take him out, something that wouldn't kill a Founder outright.

[Howedar]

In defence of the Klingons, there is little reason for a handheld weapon to be able to throw out the rediculous firepower of a phaser at very high settings. The Klingon disruptors are battlefield weapons, not Swiss Army knives.

[Slartibartfast]

Well, considering the Changeling could BE the door, yes. And the Changeling wouldn't have to be conventionally 'tough' - simply apply the energy to mimicking hotter metal. Melting and glowing isn't 'destruction' for a changeling.

Any numbers on how powerful Klingon disruptors are?

Please provide evidence that being heated to incandescence is not harmful for a Founder.

Didn't one of the founders died when it was hiding near some furnace in the Defiant? During that episode with the Jem'hadar in some siege planet.

[Sarevok]

Was it the The Siege of AR-558 ?

[Kurgan]

It's been awhile, but I thought it was a case of a Founder being thrown up against a Force Field.


See, that's the thing, in Trek sometimes Force Fields are just like a pane of glass. Sure, you bump into it, but no big deal if you do. Other times it seems to "zap" you and hurts a lot and if you keep doing it you can seriously injure yourself.

This seemed to be one of the "zappy" force fields again IIRC.

[Slartibartfast]

No, it was the Siege of ARR like Evilcat said. The Jem'hadar were attacking because there was a founder on board, but the feds never actually interacted with him. He was hiding as a lump o'shit on the ceiling near some furnace, and for some reason Sisko ordered some kind of reactor or engine burst or sumthin and afterwards they found a dead founder. The dead founder was found. Found it was. I mean it was found dead.

[Stofsk]

No, it was the Siege of ARR like Evilcat said. The Jem'hadar were attacking because there was a founder on board, but the feds never actually interacted with him. He was hiding as a lump o'shit on the ceiling near some furnace, and for some reason Sisko ordered some kind of reactor or engine burst or sumthin and afterwards they found a dead founder. The dead founder was found. Found it was. I mean it was found dead.

The episode you're thinking of is the season 5 "The Ship" as the events happen more or less the way you describe.

"Siege of AR la-de-dah" is a season 7 episode, and I can't remember it having a founder in it. I can't actually remember much of it. Perhaps I repressed it?

Didn't one of the founders died when it was hiding near some furnace in the Defiant? During that episode with the Jem'hadar in some siege planet.

That was the season 3 cliffhanger "The Adversary." You're confusing it with the "Siege of AR shit".

[Kurgan]

So what DS9 ep was it where Odo knocks a Founder up against a Force Field (?) and kills him, raising the ire of the Founders because "no changeling has ever harmed another" or whatever their motto was?

[General Zod]

So what DS9 ep was it where Odo knocks a Founder up against a Force Field (?) and kills him, raising the ire of the Founders because "no changeling has ever harmed another" or whatever their motto was?

It wasn't so much their motto as a long standing tradition. In their history no changeling has ever actually killed another one of their kind.

[Slartibartfast]

No, it was the Siege of ARR like Evilcat said. The Jem'hadar were attacking because there was a founder on board, but the feds never actually interacted with him. He was hiding as a lump o'shit on the ceiling near some furnace, and for some reason Sisko ordered some kind of reactor or engine burst or sumthin and afterwards they found a dead founder. The dead founder was found. Found it was. I mean it was found dead.

The episode you're thinking of is the season 5 "The Ship" as the events happen more or less the way you describe.

"Siege of AR la-de-dah" is a season 7 episode, and I can't remember it having a founder in it. I can't actually remember much of it. Perhaps I repressed it?

Well, I can't remember if it was the Siege of R2D2 or some other, but it definitely wasn't the one where Odo pushes the changeling into some thing that kills it. That one is the only one I could think could be confused with the one I'm thinking. All I know is that at some point the Jem'hadar tried to bargain or something but refused to tell them there was a founder onboard, and ended commiting suicide after finding out it died.

Didn't one of the founders died when it was hiding near some furnace in the Defiant? During that episode with the Jem'hadar in some siege planet.

That was the season 3 cliffhanger "The Adversary." You're confusing it with the "Siege of AR shit".

Maybe I never actually watched Siege of Argh, but it seemed to me that it was the one I saw from descriptions of the plot. I'll try diggin' up some synopses or sumthin.

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, it was definitely "The Ship", and apparently the founder was killed by some energy discharge from the core. It didn't even die immediately, it actually succumbed from "injury" after trying to put up a fight or sumthin.

[Admiral_K]

Ok, so most people think a lightsaber would be of little use to actually kill a changeling given the nature of the weapon.

I take it the general consensus is that force lightging would definately roast a founder correct?

[Metrion Cascade]

The evidence is that a changeling exploded with one shot from it, when in the normal universe the Cardassians are less powerful and less warlike than the Klingons.

Find me a single example of any Cardassian hand weapon in the normal universe doing hundreds of times as much damage as a Klingon disruptor in one shot.

what in the hell does cardassian weapons being more powerful than klingon ones have to do with cardassian weapons in the mirror universe being more powerful than cardassian weapons in the regular universe, when i've been talking about the cardassian weapons in both universes this entire time?

What you propose (that the mirror-universe weapon was the same as a normal Cardassian weapon) requires the Cardassian weapons in the normal universe to be hundreds of times more powerful than Klingon ones. This despite their lower industrial capacity and technology.

[Metrion Cascade]

In defence of the Klingons, there is little reason for a handheld weapon to be able to throw out the rediculous firepower of a phaser at very high settings. The Klingon disruptors are battlefield weapons, not Swiss Army knives.

So unlike phasers, they should rely more on brute force and less on Federation bullshit. Case in point - a Klingon disruptor aimed point-blank at a GCS warp core was expected to blow it up. A Federation phaser aimed from the same range at a Cardassian core took not slightly longer, but something like half an hour.

As an aside...have we ever seen a Klingon disruptor fired at a person? I actually can't think of a single example.

[Metrion Cascade]

The evidence is that a changeling exploded with one shot from it, when in the normal universe the Cardassians are less powerful and less warlike than the Klingons.

Find me a single example of any Cardassian hand weapon in the normal universe doing hundreds of times as much damage as a Klingon disruptor in one shot.

what in the hell does cardassian weapons being more powerful than klingon ones have to do with cardassian weapons in the mirror universe being more powerful than cardassian weapons in the regular universe, when i've been talking about the cardassian weapons in both universes this entire time?

It's difficult because of the lack of "founder kills" in the canon. On the one hand we have the "one shot kill" explosive death of Mirror Universe Odo with the Bajoran (?) phaser. Then we have the Founder being killed only after dozens of hits from multiple Klingon hand disruptors in the "normal" Universe.

So we have put forth some ideas to explain the apparent discrepencies:

1) Bajoran Mirror Universe phasers are simply that much more powerful than Klingon normal universe hand disruptors.

2) The Mirror Universe gun was set to the highest kill setting, but the Klingon guns were set to a low setting (or perhaps they CAN'T go any higher than a certain setting). It's not entirely impossible, since the regular universe characters seem to have no psychological qualms about "killing" their other selves (with the exception of Sisko and his wife's doppelganger), so setting it for kill instead of the usual stun, etc.
Then we have examples of Klingon stupidity throughout the series, perhaps Klingons routinely make their guns weaker for a "challenge" or don't bother to make them stronger since they usually resort to their melee weapons in battle anyway. And this room full of Klingons was getting drunk and slapping each other around until just a few seconds before the Changeling was revealed...

3) Odo, being an amateur shapeshifter simply can't form objects of durable strength and lacks the endurance of the Founders. We've seen numerous times and heard numerous times how the Founders are superior at shape shifting, older, wiser, etc. So perhaps Odo simply is just easier to kill. Maybe his "humanoid shape" we're used to is actually very unstable, and a kill level phaser blast was enough to take him out, something that wouldn't kill a Founder outright.

There's no evidence that Klingon disruptors even have multiple power settings. I think it's a combination of explanations 2 and 3. Odo's not as good as a normal changeling at managing his matter and energy, and obviously doesn't mimic any humanoid race's complete anatomy. Combine that with a weapon far more powerful than its counterpart in the normal universe.

[Metrion Cascade]

Shit. I meant a combination of explanations ONE and three.

[Darth Wong]

In defence of the Klingons, there is little reason for a handheld weapon to be able to throw out the rediculous firepower of a phaser at very high settings. The Klingon disruptors are battlefield weapons, not Swiss Army knives.

So unlike phasers, they should rely more on brute force and less on Federation bullshit.

Wrong. Real-life military weapons generally pack less punch than civilian weapons. They want to maximize ammo capacity and minimize weight, and they are powerful enough to kill as it is.

Case in point - a Klingon disruptor aimed point-blank at a GCS warp core was expected to blow it up. A Federation phaser aimed from the same range at a Cardassian core took not slightly longer, but something like half an hour.

So? A GCS warp core is a powder keg.

As an aside...have we ever seen a Klingon disruptor fired at a person? I actually can't think of a single example.

It probably happened in "Way of the Warrior" or "Nor the Battle to the Strong".