Enterprise E at Geonosis

[Kamakazie Sith]

Grrr, need to edit.

The shots taken of the Coreship crashing also suggest that the SPHAT guns do not outgun that of the Accalamator, or are of equivalent output to the Heavy Turbolasers of the Rebellion era.

We saw them punch through the armour, melting only a relatively small portion, and that's it. If the shot was indeed >> 200 GT, then shouldn't the resulting reaction be much more violent, with the molten metal being ejected out?

Even if the SPHAT was capable of dealing out 200 GT shots, its also relatively safe to assume that the shot in Genosis wasn't that.

So you're suggesting that they went and reclassified what is considered a heavy turbolaser? I guess it could be different for artillery, naval ships, and even planetary defenses.

Wouldn't it be a "Heavy Turbolaser" of that era?

It's not like it was a century ago.....

[Col. Crackpot]

tthf the SPHA-T's weapons are so powerful, then why ere they not used on Douku's speeder or escorting fighters?

Obi Wan: "Pilot, target that speeder"
SPHA-T Pilot: "I can't. we're out of missiles"

That's because they were in a LAAT.

The SPHA-T was what Yoda ordered against the Trade Federation ships.

D'oh!

[Alyrium Denryle]

With regards to that quote, that quote certainly cannot mean that the SPHAT power is superior to the heavy guns mounted on the Accalamator. For god sake, its artillery, not a WMD.

I has always taken that to mean that the power and heat requirements of the canon is so huge, that it is unpractical to mount in on starships. Perhaps tactical doctrine states that ground lasers should be of sustained duration, delivering a low energy, high power shots, whereas ship combat lasers require blasts of short duration, high energy, relatively lower power shots.

Grrr, need to edit.

The shots taken of the Coreship crashing also suggest that the SPHAT guns do not outgun that of the Accalamator, or are of equivalent output to the Heavy Turbolasers of the Rebellion era.

We saw them punch through the armour, melting only a relatively small portion, and that's it. If the shot was indeed >> 200 GT, then shouldn't the resulting reaction be much more violent, with the molten metal being ejected out?

Even if the SPHAT was capable of dealing out 200 GT shots, its also relatively safe to assume that the shot in Genosis wasn't that.

Not necessarily with their hull materials. The armor would have to be good at resisting heat transfer, so the reaction my not have to be so horribly violent. However to puncture the hull, the weapon woud have to be dishing out power in the gigaton range anyway. At least of that ship were going to be surviving in combat with Acclamators. Helll, if anything those shots would have to be >200 gigatons because if they werent the republican fores could not have brought them down so quickly.

[Col. Crackpot]

Not necessarily with their hull materials. The armor would have to be good at resisting heat transfer, so the reaction my not have to be so horribly violent. However to puncture the hull, the weapon woud have to be dishing out power in the gigaton range anyway. At least of that ship were going to be surviving in combat with Acclamators. Helll, if anything those shots would have to be >200 gigatons because if they werent the republican fores could not have brought them down so quickly.

in a vaccum i might agree with you, but such a heat transfer would have superheated the air around the impact point so much, that it would have been clearly visible. We don't even see so much as haze until the TradeFed ship hit the ground.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Not necessarily with their hull materials. The armor would have to be good at resisting heat transfer, so the reaction my not have to be so horribly violent. However to puncture the hull, the weapon woud have to be dishing out power in the gigaton range anyway. At least of that ship were going to be surviving in combat with Acclamators. Helll, if anything those shots would have to be >200 gigatons because if they werent the republican fores could not have brought them down so quickly.

in a vaccum i might agree with you, but such a heat transfer would have superheated the air around the impact point so much, that it would have been clearly visible. We don't even see so much as haze until the TradeFed ship hit the ground.

Then it seems we have a contradiction of visible evidence

[Col. Crackpot]

Not necessarily with their hull materials. The armor would have to be good at resisting heat transfer, so the reaction my not have to be so horribly violent. However to puncture the hull, the weapon woud have to be dishing out power in the gigaton range anyway. At least of that ship were going to be surviving in combat with Acclamators. Helll, if anything those shots would have to be >200 gigatons because if they werent the republican fores could not have brought them down so quickly.

in a vaccum i might agree with you, but such a heat transfer would have superheated the air around the impact point so much, that it would have been clearly visible. We don't even see so much as haze until the TradeFed ship hit the ground.

Then it seems we have a contradiction of visible evidence

Indeed. i watched it last night and while the beam clearly cuts through the hull of the TradeFed battleship, there is NO visible heating of the surrounding air. So either:

A) The hull was weak and the beam was low powered

or

B) The LHA-T has some method of containing all heat within the beam until the very point of impact, and even then none of the heat hitting the hull is transfered to the surrounding air

apply Occam's Razor at your leisure.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Problem with the first is that the hull was that of a warship that is known to be able to take multi-gigaton impacts.

[Darth Wong]

A truly vast quantity of energy could have been released into the interior of the TradeFed core ships without producing any significant manifestations outside. Or have we forgotten their sheer size? As I said before, the simple act of one of those things falling to the ground was a multi-kiloton event. Not all kiloton-level events create a mushroom cloud; the fireball and mushroom cloud are byproducts of the intense localization of the energy in a nuclear blast.

[Col. Crackpot]

A truly vast quantity of energy could have been released into the interior of the TradeFed core ships without producing any significant manifestations outside. Or have we forgotten their sheer size? As I said before, the simple act of one of those things falling to the ground was a multi-kiloton event. Not all kiloton-level events create a mushroom cloud; the mushroom cloud is a byproduct of the intense localization of the energy in a nuclear blast.

Mike, then how come that kiloton level event had a visible effect on the atmosphere while the supposed megaton-gigaton level energy transfer of the beam didn't? not so much as evaporation of water vapor or the visible distortion of light? Again either:

A) The hull was weak and the beam was low powered

or

B) The LHA-T has some method of containing all heat within the beam until the very point of impact, and even then none of the heat hitting the hull is transfered to the surrounding air


appy occam's razor.

Problem with the first is that the hull was that of a warship that is known to be able to take multi-gigaton impacts.

well here is what appears to be either visible evidence to the contrary. or one whopper of a contradiction of cannon.

[Darth Wong]

A truly vast quantity of energy could have been released into the interior of the TradeFed core ships without producing any significant manifestations outside. Or have we forgotten their sheer size? As I said before, the simple act of one of those things falling to the ground was a multi-kiloton event. Not all kiloton-level events create a mushroom cloud; the mushroom cloud is a byproduct of the intense localization of the energy in a nuclear blast.

Mike, then how come that kiloton level event had a visible effect on the atmosphere while the supposed megaton-gigaton level energy transfer of the beam didn't?

It's rather doubtful that it was gigaton-yield, not in an atmosphere and not so close to a civilian city. I think you're confusing my position with that of someone else in this thread. The original poster denied that any kT-level events occurred anywhere in the Battle of Geonosis, and I provided an example of one.

As for the databank quote about the SPHA-T being so huge and powerful that it can't be installed in a starship hull, that's fucking stupid and only speaks to the abysmal logic skills of the person who made that databank entry. Why doesn't the Empire bolt SPHA-T's to the outside of starships then? Official material such as the databank enjoys some quasi-canon status, but when it is clearly illogical (see the older claims about TIE fighters being solar-powered), it should not be taken seriously.

[Col. Crackpot]

It's rather doubtful that it was gigaton-yield, not in an atmosphere and not so close to a civilian city. I think you're confusing my position with that of someone else in this thread. The original poster denied that any kT-level events occurred anywhere in the Battle of Geonosis, and I provided an example of one.

As for the databank quote about the SPHA-T being so huge and powerful that it can't be installed in a starship hull, that's fucking stupid and only speaks to the abysmal logic skills of the person who made that databank entry. Why doesn't the Empire bolt SPHA-T's to the outside of starships then? Official material such as the databank enjoys some quasi-canon status, but when it is clearly illogical (see the older claims about TIE fighters being solar-powered), it should not be taken seriously.

then that brings us to the greater issue: hull strength of TradeFed battleships. One central core was brought down by 4 of these supposedly low powered SPHA-T's. That seriously calls into question the canonality of their ability to withstand gigaton level firepower without shields.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Remember, trade fed ships arent purpose built warships. They are also massive cargo ships.

[Crayz9000]

the fireball and mushroom cloud are byproducts of the intense localization of the energy in a nuclear blast.

Or pretty much any large-scale blast, including the ones made by BLU-82 Daisy Cutters.

[PainRack]

So you're suggesting that they went and reclassified what is considered a heavy turbolaser? I guess it could be different for artillery, naval ships, and even planetary defenses.

Actually, we saw Republic heavy turbolasers before in the EU, and their firepower in the comics weren't exactly spectular either.

Its probably the same as naval 16 inch guns using AP shells while equivalent land artillery uses HE, in this context, ground based heavy turbolasers use a sustained high power blast, that ultimately has a lower yield than anti-capitalship blasts, which is of short duration but of a higher weapons yield.

[Connor MacLeod]

Their shielding might have been active and absorbed the excess energy, nullifying any sort of obvious "interaction" effect. And before anyone says "we saw no shield effects", we should note several things:

1.) Shield energy can "permeate" the hull as mentioned in the EGW&T (apparently there is some interaction between the shields and hull - witness the "hull strengthening" aspect of particle shielding from the same source). SW.com's databank also indicates this here ("Starship deflector shields are projected just a few molecules underneath hull plating, but different power setting and configurations can extend a shield farther away from the hull. ") Also note that WEG sources credited Slave 1 with possessing "contact ray shielding." In such a case, the shielding may have been active, but not extended far enough to have demonstrated any noticable glow or to have any sort of shield interaction.

Also note that shield/matter interaction is supported by various instances such as in TPM, when droideka blaster bolts reflected off the ground.

2.) the AOTC novelization indicates that the gunships had shielding (which was extended to protect the soldiers in the arenas) and we witnessed obvious shield-interaction effects in the movie, despite the absence of any "glow" like in TPM.

It should ALSO be noted the Falcon did not demonstrate shielding effects in atmosphere incidents like TESB, despite obviously being fired on (and showing shield interactions.) - it may very well be not all sorts of shielding demonstrate noticable atmospheric effects (or interact in the same way.)

One possible reason (as speculated upon by Curtis Saxton) is that particle shields probably are the ones responsible for the noticable shield/atmosphere interaction, and the absence of such may negate the "glow" (indeed, if the particle shielding are retracted close to/inside the hull - remember that they do interact/strengthen the hull! - there would be no glow. And it was demonstrated that none of the gunships had any projectiles powerful enough to damage the hull, which would make particle shielding irrelevant)

3.) There WAS an interaction, but faded shortly after shield activation. Notice that when Anakin reactivates his Naboo fighter's shielding inside the Trade Federation warship in TPM, we witness obvious shield/atmosphere interaction, yet the effect fades after mere seconds. The shields may have been raised offscreen, and thus disappeared before the SPHA-T's opened fire.

As for the interaction of the beam with the atmosphere, the only evidence of "energy loss" is in the visibly glowing pulse, which is nowhere near bright enough to actually cause anyy sort of significant interaction (its a "harmless byproduct" of the generation proceess - according to the EGW&T. It also depends greatly on how the bema delivers its energy - observed evidence indicates that "continous" beams (aka the mini superlasers on the LAATs, the SPHA-T guns, etc.) have more of a cutting than an "explosive" effect (like the asteroid vaporizations in TESB, or the "low penetration" bolts seen from hand weapons in TPM and ROTJ). (In fact this would be desriable, given the close proximity of the targets to the battlefield - you don't want alot of secondary effects.)

[Connor MacLeod]

As a point of further elaboration, the shields would not neccesarily have "radiated" energy away when struck (rather, they may have absorbed/stored it, as all deflector shields possess heat sinks for just that purpose - the energy from weapons that manages to exceed the instantaneous dissipation capacity of the shields gets absorbed, until the absorption capacity is exceeded.) In fact, certain sources suggest that Imperial warships (or even smuggler ships like the Falcon) can "recycle" energy absorbed by the shields for the ship's own purposes (the Lando Calrissian novels make ample mention of this, but there is also the "molecular" shielding of the Viper Automadon droids, as well.)

[Col. Crackpot]

As a point of further elaboration, the shields would not neccesarily have "radiated" energy away when struck (rather, they may have absorbed/stored it, as all deflector shields possess heat sinks for just that purpose - the energy from weapons that manages to exceed the instantaneous dissipation capacity of the shields gets absorbed, until the absorption capacity is exceeded.) In fact, certain sources suggest that Imperial warships (or even smuggler ships like the Falcon) can "recycle" energy absorbed by the shields for the ship's own purposes (the Lando Calrissian novels make ample mention of this, but there is also the "molecular" shielding of the Viper Automadon droids, as well.)

the problem with heat sinks is that the heat has to dissipate somewhere. with the energies involved there should be some visible effect on the atmosphere.

[Mad]

the problem with heat sinks is that the heat has to dissipate somewhere. with the energies involved there should be some visible effect on the atmosphere.

Depends. If the heat sinks can convert the energy into neutrinos or another particle with next-to-no interaction with normal mass, then the energy could be released into the environment without it being felt. (I've heard this idea before, but I'm not sure if it was speculation or from a particular source. In any case, it shouldn't violate CoE.)

[PainRack]

Their shielding might have been active and absorbed the excess energy, nullifying any sort of obvious "interaction" effect. And before anyone says "we saw no shield effects", we should note several things:

We saw no shield interaction. Unlike TPM and the MF, there was no visible shield reaction to the 4 blasts that hit the ship.

Depends. If the heat sinks can convert the energy into neutrinos or another particle with next-to-no interaction with normal mass, then the energy could be released into the environment without it being felt. (I've heard this idea before, but I'm not sure if it was speculation or from a particular source. In any case, it shouldn't violate CoE.)

Won't this violate conservation of matter instead?

Even if shields were present, its more than likely that they were not at full strenght, especially considering the weakness of the 4 SPHAT attacks.

[Col. Crackpot]

the problem with heat sinks is that the heat has to dissipate somewhere. with the energies involved there should be some visible effect on the atmosphere.

Depends. If the heat sinks can convert the energy into neutrinos or another particle with next-to-no interaction with normal mass, then the energy could be released into the environment without it being felt. (I've heard this idea before, but I'm not sure if it was speculation or from a particular source. In any case, it shouldn't violate CoE.)

hmmm your complex hypothesis

vs.

the beam is not very powerful, and it hit an unshielded weak hull.


AGAIN: Occam's Razor

[Mad]

Won't this violate conservation of matter instead?

Conservation of Mass is a general rule for normal occurances, but can be violated with high-energy interactions.

If you knock a wrecking ball into a building and caculate total mass of the debris as less than what was there originally, you're doing something work. On the other hand, think about matter-antimatter conversations: mass is missing but total energy remains the same. And energy can be converted into mass (mass increases as velocity, and therefore kinetic energy, increases to near c). Conservation of Energy is the law to watch out for.

hmmm your complex hypothesis

vs.

the beam is not very powerful, and it hit an unshielded weak hull.


AGAIN: Occam's Razor

My "complex hypothesis" fits with canonical data. Your hypothesis throws out canonical data (ICS2 weapons yields and shielding levels, verified by firepower shown in Geonosis' rings).

Remember, Occam's Razor isn't meant to throw out relevant and valid data.

With your hypothesis, you must account for why TradeFed ships can be taken out by sub-kiloton firepower when we have instances of unshielded hull easily taking kilotons to megatons of energy (X-wing laser blasts to the Death Star surface and an unshielded bridge tower in RotJ). When trying to explain everything and still keep your hypothesis valid, things get complicated very quickly.

Mine, on the other hand, doesn't get complicated as we bring more data in. It adds one term (general energy->neutrino conversion) and... we're done without violating any fundamental laws.

[Col. Crackpot]

the problem with heat sinks is that the heat has to dissipate somewhere. with the energies involved there should be some visible effect on the atmosphere.

Depends. If the heat sinks can convert the energy into neutrinos or another particle with next-to-no interaction with normal mass, then the energy could be released into the environment without it being felt. (I've heard this idea before, but I'm not sure if it was speculation or from a particular source. In any case, it shouldn't violate CoE.)

That sounds like a speculation on your part to make this complex hypothesis comply with the 1st law of thermodynamics. Until further evidence is presented it looks like we have a serious contradiction in canon.

[Solauren]

Anyway... getting back to the question

If properly protected, I think Enterprise-E COULD have been used to stop the war before it really got going.

Consider this:
Enterprise-E's weapons are not powerful enough to cause a great deal of local damage (compared to Star Wars weapons)

They do have a few nice tricks up there sleeve Trek does not.

Here's what I could see happening

Yoda hired Enterprise-E, so he should know it's capablities. He brief's the Jedi on the way to Geonosis, hoping maybe some of it's exotic technology could be of use.
Instead of attacking the areana with Jedi, they simply beam Ben, Anakin and Padme up. No massive Jedi slaughter. Hell, they grab up Dooku and friends, and that's the end of the fight.

(This is assuming the transporters work in this situtation. If the droid factory wasn't well shielded, it might be another technobabble stopping of the transporters)

Assuming that Enterprise-E's transporters can't be used in the arena, the battle probably goes close to the same way as in the movie, with maybe Enterprise-E having to shot down alot of missiles or hiding behind an Acclamator and directing traffic.

Anyway, the other chance for the Enterprise-E to change the course of the battle comes during Dooku's escape and pursuit by Anakin and Ben.
It's foolish to assume Yoda or another Jedi would not have briefed Anakin and Ben via comlink about Enterprise-E's abilities. I mean, come on, wouldn't you?

So, Dooku is flying on his bike, and they are out of rockets. Padme gets knocked down, and instead of the arguement, Ben goes 'hang on, signal the Enterprise, and have the Senator beamed up. She'll be fine Anakin'
Anakin would probably have been more level headed in the fight with Dooku (dead Jedi vs Padme fallen out of ship, which REALLY pissed him off?)

Or
'Master Kenobi to Enterprise-E. Lock onto my signal, we are pursuing a speeder bike and are unable to shoot it down. Can you beam just the bike up?"

If the enterprise can, they could beam it up, and Dooku is suddenly without a ride. Assuming he survives the fall to the ground (easy, given his abilities), he can no longer get to the hanger.

Or they beam Dooku up, and hold him in transport until Jedi arrive to deal with him, or if they know what a Dark Jedi can do, beam him into a holodeck with stuff to keep him occupied until they can knock him out or Jedi arrive.

Or, if they can't lock onto Dooku, what's to prevent them from using the transporters *again, assuming no interference* from beaming more Jedi to help Ben and Anakin?

'Enterprise-E, this is Master kenobi, begin transporting Jedi to these co-ordainate to help us deal with Dooku"

Enterprise-E beams in Mace Windu and a few other council members. maybe the Dark Woman....

Since Star Wars has some better writing then Star Trek, no need for transporter interference for the plot.

The Jedi capture Dooku, find out who he is working for, they go arrest Palpatine, and everyone lives happily ever after.

That's IF they can use the transporters on Geonsis.

If not, the enterprise could either phaser dooku down from space, or they get blown up by a few fusion missiles

[Mad]

That sounds like a speculation on your part to make this complex hypothesis comply with the 1st law of thermodynamics. Until further evidence is presented it looks like we have a serious contradiction in canon.

It's an apparent contradiction. You're just ignoring the rationalization. (Kinda like NDF is speculation that rationalizes phaser behavior.) If you don't like it, then come up with a better one that likewise doesn't throw out canonical data.

[Col. Crackpot]

That sounds like a speculation on your part to make this complex hypothesis comply with the 1st law of thermodynamics. Until further evidence is presented it looks like we have a serious contradiction in canon.

It's an apparent contradiction. You're just ignoring the rationalization. (Kinda like NDF is speculation that rationalizes phaser behavior.) If you don't like it, then come up with a better one that likewise doesn't throw out canonical data.

If it were equal levels of canon, i'd agree with the rationalization, but we are clearly dealing with an example of the highest level of canon (on screen evidence) contradicting a lesser level of canon (ICS). We don't need to rationalize, i was under the belief that this is how the 'canon unless contradicted' status of ICS worked.