What is it with Mecha Series and pissin on the US?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-27 07:26pm

Any sci-fi that depicts a future world very much different from our own is either going to neglect the US entirely or show it in a declining state, because you can't have a future that feels too much different from our present if you depict the US still being in charge of everything. It's not necessarily anti-Americanism.

Hell, even if we leave aside the mecha series, most of the dystopian futureworlds nowadays describe the US as a nation-state which has been essentially stripped of its superpower status and turned into a vassal of giant corporations.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-06-27 07:37pm

Sharp-kun wrote:The same can be said about US films and other countries. U-57 is an example of this. A nice little historical rewrite, making Americans feel that much more important.

Actually Mostow wanted to do a historically accurate movie but couldn't find a British studio that was interested. Only then did he rewrite the script to be American-centric.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-27 08:02pm

Thanks for the clear air of reason, Mike. I was rather concerned that this thread would decend further into the typical behavior that such topics always result in.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-27 08:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:Any sci-fi that depicts a future world very much different from our own is either going to neglect the US entirely or show it in a declining state, because you can't have a future that feels too much different from our present if you depict the US still being in charge of everything. It's not necessarily anti-Americanism.

No, it's not. And there are a fair number that go about it in very reasonable fashion. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex being one that does it in a fairly reasonable manner.

It's just that for all that, there are a bunch like those mentioned into it that go about creating that changed world in an utterly ham-handed, jingoistic manner. The four mech invasion being a prime example. And frankly, there are also a lot where it's painfully obvious that the force are meant to be American (for example: clearly American ships, planes, and ground equipment etc) but called UN or some fictional equivalent simply to avoid calling it US.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-27 08:32pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Thanks for the clear air of reason, Mike. I was rather concerned that this thread would decend further into the typical behavior that such topics always result in.

Spanky, just because you're a Japanophile doesn't mean their culture's perfect. Deal with it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-27 09:07pm

I'm not a Japanophile, Storm. And I know that their culture or history isn't fucking perfect.

It simply annoys me that these type of threads always end up exactly the same, and for such broad assumptions and generalisations to be made.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-06-27 09:19pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'm not a Japanophile, Storm. And I know that their culture or history isn't fucking perfect.

You seem to have a serious fondess for their culture. There's nothing wrong with that but I can't help but notice you constantly defending it at every turn.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:It simply annoys me that these type of threads always end up exactly the same, and for such broad assumptions and generalisations to be made.

Spanky, not every generalization is wrong. There's ample evidence that Japan has serious cultural baggage when it comes to everything connected to World War Two. That people notice that sort of trend is rather inevitable.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-27 09:26pm

Actually, a lot if has to do with how I practice film analysis, in that I am always catious to assume something when I don't know author intention.

Yes, but I don't think that it's right to assume that such trends are based on hostile resentment or jingoism. As Mike said, a lot of times it's just something to do for flavouring or distinctness.

I'm not saying that there isn't an occasional example where it might be based on resentment/jingoism, but perhaps sometimes it might more reflect poor planning or blunt writing...

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-06-27 09:26pm

Archaic` wrote:WWII is taught, but in a very selective fashion. The Atom Bombing is covered of course, as is the pacific war in the higher grades (minus the war crimes), but you'll never hear about the Korean Occupation or the invasion of China except in university level courses, and even then, it's not necessarily going to be a very detailed analysis.

So in other words, while these courses don't specifically imply the US as being the agressor in the Pacific War, they leave out enough details so that someone whose knowledge of WWII is based on these courses (especially if they have a certain bias and mindset) could perceive it as such? (not that I'm saying this is the intent of leaving out said details...)

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2004-06-27 10:14pm

Fuck no. Even if someone's entire knowledge of the second world war was based on these courses, they know they were the aggressors. The most one could twist it would be to say that they believed they had no other choice at the time. And honestly, only the ultra-nationalists would ever twist it that way. The general population might not know the specifics anymore, but they do acknowledge both the guilt, and the positive impact of the Allied occupation.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-06-27 10:38pm

Okay, thanks for clearing that up...

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2004-06-27 10:46pm

Another thing i heard about Japan's part in WWII there's a rumor that say its the Asian Mafia who pushed Japan in this mess

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-06-27 11:21pm

Now, I am an anime fan, and like Spanky and others I'm also intrigued with Japanese culture, however the one thing that has always irked me is juist why did exactly is it that Japan get away with war its crimes? Why didnt America, while they still occupied Japan, just force them to have war crimes trials like they did to the Germans in Europe and then after that instill some kind of monuments or something into their new constitution that forces them to acknoledge more of what they did?

I would think the americans would have been very adament over something like this considering Japan was the main aggressor against them.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-06-27 11:27pm

Um, quite a few Japanese leaders ended up swinging from the gallows...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-27 11:35pm

Yeah, there were war trials for the Pacific side of the Axis, but they haven't been as heavily covered by history classes as the European ones.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-28 02:41am

Because while the Japanese did have the pleasure battalions, the Rape of Nanking, cannibalism in isolated prison camps, massive prisoner abuse and use of prisoners has subjects in bio-warfare experiments, they did not represent an idealogy that the Allies wished to see crushed. Plus the Soviets had a massive grudge against the Nazis and wanted every chance to gain revenge.

So the War-crimes trail were kept quiet. Part of the surrender was that the Emperior was not to be touched, so he wasn't.

Now has for Japan. It's a culture with high points and low points. Just like Canada, Britian or the U.S.

Remind me someday to tell you what it's like to grow up with two deaf parents in 1980's America, when it was still perfectly fine to refuse to hire someone based on a handicapped, even if that wouldn't impact their job performence.

Hell, go to a search engine, input "Trail of Tears."

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-28 02:52am

They didn't so much keep quiet about them, it's just that they're not covered that much in comparison to the Nazi war trials.

I don't think I found out about them until I was in high school, and on the History Channel, interestingly enough.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-28 02:56am

Sorry to post again so soon...

I really have no idea why they don't get much of a mention these days. It's not so much about hiding the existance of them, but maybe that they're nothing more than a mere footnote in comparison to the Nuremberg Trials. Perhaps they're not considered interesting enough to cover...

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-06-28 03:03am

Your pardon, that was badly pharsed.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2004-06-28 04:06am

One thing to keep in mind. One of the former A-class war criminals did manage to get elected as Prime Minister during (I think) the late 60's.

Never heard any rumours about the Yakuza getting Japan into it. Though they certainly appreciated the conquest of Korea. It was simply a highly imperialist military who exerted undue influence on government policy due to various arrangements, such as the Minister of Defence being required to be a standing member of the military of a certain minimum rank.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2004-06-28 04:09am

Sorry to double post, but....

Icehawk wrote:Why didnt America, while they still occupied Japan, just force them to have war crimes trials like they did to the Germans in Europe and then after that instill some kind of monuments or something into their new constitution that forces them to acknoledge more of what they did?

Just what the hell do you think Article 9 was meant to be? Even if certain Japanese lawmakers at the time did manage to slip past them a clause that gave the loophole allowing for the establishment of the SDF.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-28 05:49am

remember's "Hawk" from "City Hunter" the US military man, whose now running a restaurant in the scummiest part of Toyko....

remembers Bean Bandit & the gals from GSC....

no, refighting WWII is mostly a mecha related thing....

although square does incorperate it into Ring of Red, and Front Mission....

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-28 05:53am

HemlockGrey wrote:Um, quite a few Japanese leaders ended up swinging from the gallows...

yes including the general who directed the Phillepean's campaign from his office In Edo. While the Col. who directly supervised the actual warcrimes in the era, got off scott free, and became a politician...

then again, George Bush sr. got away with straffing life boats...

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-06-28 01:20pm

frigidmagi wrote:While that is scary. I have to ask, how many Americans here were taught about the Trail of Tears in school. Because I wasn't I had to go to the reservation museum to find out about it.

I was taught about the Trail of Tears (I live in New Jersey), though admittedly not until my junior year of high school.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-28 01:41pm

I knew about it in Jr. High....

of course I grew up in Californication.....

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What is it with Mecha Series and pissin on the US?

Re: What is it with Mecha Series and pissin on the US?