STGOD 4 OOC Thread

[Beowulf]

*cough cough* The fleet is heading out of the galactic disc. you know, space is three dimensional?

I'm taking advantage of that fact to send my fleet to safety. Most of your forces are going to be roughly along the plane of the disc. Now, considering the fact that my fleet has a head start as far as getting away goes, and is equiped for much longer duration voyages than any other known space power, given the fact that few power go outside known space without a lot more preparation, you can't catch me before you run out of supplies. If you actually, by some miracle, manage to catch up, you'll be facing a fleet that has orders to die before capture.

[Hotfoot]

*cough cough* The fleet is heading out of the galactic disc. you know, space is three dimensional?

I'm taking advantage of that fact to send my fleet to safety. Most of your forces are going to be roughly along the plane of the disc. Now, considering the fact that my fleet has a head start as far as getting away goes, and is equiped for much longer duration voyages than any other known space power,

So, wait, let me see if I understand this correctly. Not only can you build nearly exact replicas of ships from pre-existing known space powers, with your own technology, but you can also miraculously give them better supplies than any other fleet in known space. Never mind that you're three weeks out, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't all that much considering that naval ships in known space would be capable of deployments for several months.

given the fact that few power go outside known space without a lot more preparation, you can't catch me before you run out of supplies. If you actually, by some miracle, manage to catch up, you'll be facing a fleet that has orders to die before capture.

Actually, logically speaking, you'd be much worse off for supplies than we would, seeing as how we've had a considerable amount of time to resupply from watching over the respective colonies, whereas you, well, you've just flown in from Darkness-ville and boy are your hyperdrives tired.

Meanwhile, as far as the third dimension goes, well, there is a fair amount of play in that map, seeing as how I never got around to marking the third axis into the map just yet. I'll let you ponder that one.

[Stormbringer]

So, wait, let me see if I understand this correctly. Not only can you build nearly exact replicas of ships from pre-existing known space powers, with your own technology, but you can also miraculously give them better supplies than any other fleet in known space.

He's not exactly being unreasonable you know. He could easily enough have his ships prepared for a longer voyages with out upping the technology, just having designed them that way.

Add to that the fact that his people are more or less living dead and wouldn't need a great deal of supplies to begin with.

Never mind that you're three weeks out, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't all that much considering that naval ships in known space would be capable of deployments for several months.

No, but three weeks constant voyage is going to be a bit more strenous than a couple months average deployment.

[Hotfoot]

He's not exactly being unreasonable you know. He could easily enough have his ships prepared for a longer voyages with out upping the technology, just having designed them that way.

True, but it's just one more thing to have to design for, especially when dealing with the fact that those ships in particular are supposed to be nearly identical to the ships they are mimicking. The fact that they would have twice as much space (or more) for supplies would be a pretty obvious clue.

Add to that the fact that his people are more or less living dead and wouldn't need a great deal of supplies to begin with.

The ships will still need supplies, spare parts, raw materials, etc. and so forth, and as I recall, his "I don't need to consume" was smacked down quite a ways back. Even Nitram's ships needed reasonable amounts of supplies, and he was a machine.

No, but three weeks constant voyage is going to be a bit more strenous than a couple months average deployment.

Fair enough, but modern naval ships carry enough supplies for six months of deployment, not two, with full crew, and that is assuming that you are on the move constantly. So, in the long run, it's really not going to make that much of a difference.

[Stormbringer]

True, but it's just one more thing to have to design for, especially when dealing with the fact that those ships in particular are supposed to be nearly identical to the ships they are mimicking. The fact that they would have twice as much space (or more) for supplies would be a pretty obvious clue.

Given the fact that everyone's claimed to immediately see through the ruse I'd imagine that the differences are rather obvious.

The ships will still need supplies, spare parts, raw materials, etc. and so forth, and as I recall, his "I don't need to consume" was smacked down quite a ways back. Even Nitram's ships needed reasonable amounts of supplies, and he was a machine.

Yeah of course they are. But the vast majority of a ships stores are going to be supplies simply for the crew and the life support. Few ships carry massive amount of stores for other purposes (save fighting).

Fair enough, but modern naval ships carry enough supplies for six months of deployment, not two, with full crew, and that is assuming that you are on the move constantly. So, in the long run, it's really not going to make that much of a difference.

Which is something of a faulty analogy since most ships also don't spend that six months running at full speed either (which FTL would be).

[InnocentBystander]

Okay, firstly. No, food does not take up much space on a ship. Why? Recall the tech level for a moment: Replicators. These replace the need for food stores. Instead of food, you just need more reactor fuel. Which, I might add, takes up the same space for everyone, either you use less effective fuel and need more of it, or stuff like anti-matter, which requires more space for containment.

Now I'd like to point out that it's 3 weeks at max speed, not 3 week cruise speed. I'd give cruise speed about 30% less than max. So it's about 4 weeks cruise speed. Now even at cruise speed traveling more than a day at once is going to be a bit taxing. For long mutli-day journies where there is no rush, they might spend 10-20% extra time letting their engines cool down or what-have-you. Now this isn't so bad for most of us, because for the most part, we don't need to travel 3 weeks to get anywhere. Hell, to get from one side of the sphere to the other is only a week.

So he could go into deep space, but unless he's going to go in the opposite direction of his homeworld, he'll get intercepted by Veithan Forces, without a doubt.

[Dahak]

*cough cough* The fleet is heading out of the galactic disc. you know, space is three dimensional?

I'm taking advantage of that fact to send my fleet to safety. Most of your forces are going to be roughly along the plane of the disc. Now, considering the fact that my fleet has a head start as far as getting away goes, and is equiped for much longer duration voyages than any other known space power, given the fact that few power go outside known space without a lot more preparation, you can't catch me before you run out of supplies. If you actually, by some miracle, manage to catch up, you'll be facing a fleet that has orders to die before capture.

Woopdidoo.
After DAYS of refusing to post even the slightest idea what your forces are doing, you're chickening out, and pull that "I can do it because I'm speciaaaal" routine.
How very convenient....

[Hotfoot]

Given the fact that everyone's claimed to immediately see through the ruse I'd imagine that the differences are rather obvious.

Well, for starters, the only way he could have possibly pulled off the ruse would be if he had never engaged in combat in the first place. The plan was not well thought out in the first place. I actually was about to give him the best chance he could have possibly had for sowing confusion with his ghost fleet, but he pissed that away when he decided to try going back to his same old tricks.

Yeah of course they are. But the vast majority of a ships stores are going to be supplies simply for the crew and the life support. Few ships carry massive amount of stores for other purposes (save fighting).

Depends on the fuel supply though, doesn't it? And when you've got a quasi-antimatter style system (wasn't that smacked down a while ago as well? Why is it still in his OOB?) you still have to carry reaction mass, and a fair amount of it.

As for his ships, they have life support. His people come back from the dead, meaning they are still in some sort of quasi living state. I would argue that if his crew didn't need supplies, they'd be as effective as a crew in stasis. Translation: not very. Even Highlanders, who can come back from the dead forever, still need food and drink in order to "survive". Sure, they'll live, but will they be operating well enough to perform the tasks required for the operation of a starship? Not very likely.

Which is something of a faulty analogy since most ships also don't spend that six months running at full speed either (which FTL would be).

It's not faulty at all, unless you think that modern naval ships somehow don't move at all during deployments. FTL doesn't even have to be "full speed". As has been pointed out numerous times in this STGOD, there's a huge difference between redlining one's FTL and taking your time.

[Hotfoot]

After DAYS of refusing to post even the slightest idea what your forces are doing

This is something that has been bothering me as well. Beowulf decided to start something he has not had the ability to follow through. An action which should have been completed a week and a half ago has been unnaturally prolonged and has slowed down the entire STGOD, which was moving at a pretty fair clip at the beginning of the trade fair.

What is perhaps the most annoying thing about it is not so much that he is not posting, but he gave no warning that he would be offline for a while, did not appoint someone to cover for him while he was gone, so forth and so on.

It's not fair to the rest of the players if someone comes in, ties up a major event, and then forces that event to be put on pause because they don't have the time to play anymore, leaving everyone else in the lurch.

I'm getting tired of waiting, and I'm fed up with the reams of crap I've had to deal with. If I don't get a satisfactory conclusion to this mess from Beowulf, I will write one myself and be done with it so that the rest of us can simply move on, and if he doesn't like it, well too bad.

[Rogue 9]

You know, I made an offer to Straha on one of those lots of power armor several pages ago. Did you see it, Straha?

[frigidmagi]

Screw it. Burn him out of the void Hotfoot!

[Alyrium Denryle]

Shuffle him off the mortal coil!

[SirNitram]

Get the fuck on with it, whatever is done.

Though this behavior is getting noticably repetitious. What happened in the last STGOD when Beowulf was screwed over by his own stupidity? He mysteriously withdrawls..

[Stormbringer]

Get the fuck on with it, whatever is done.

Though this behavior is getting noticably repetitious. What happened in the last STGOD when Beowulf was screwed over by his own stupidity? He mysteriously withdrawls..

Wow, you're a real fucking genius. You might realize that he left to join the airforce then. Paying attention to something like that might help.

[Stormbringer]

Well, for starters, the only way he could have possibly pulled off the ruse would be if he had never engaged in combat in the first place. The plan was not well thought out in the first place. I actually was about to give him the best chance he could have possibly had for sowing confusion with his ghost fleet, but he pissed that away when he decided to try going back to his same old tricks.

It was a moronic plan from the start. But I do think people are rushing a bit to give themselves a bit too much advantage in seeing through everything as well. I've seen that kill things as badly.

As for his ships, they have life support. His people come back from the dead, meaning they are still in some sort of quasi living state. I would argue that if his crew didn't need supplies, they'd be as effective as a crew in stasis. Translation: not very. Even Highlanders, who can come back from the dead forever, still need food and drink in order to "survive". Sure, they'll live, but will they be operating well enough to perform the tasks required for the operation of a starship? Not very likely.

We've got a game with mages, vampires, and all manner of magical creatures. The idea that a race of living dead would have a seriously lessened life support need is not implausible.

It's not faulty at all, unless you think that modern naval ships somehow don't move at all during deployments. FTL doesn't even have to be "full speed". As has been pointed out numerous times in this STGOD, there's a huge difference between redlining one's FTL and taking your time.

I don't think that and you're seriously missing the point of the analogy. FTL travel is quiet simply going to involve a lot more effort than real space travel and most ships quite simply aren't going to be set up for running at FTL for weeks on end.

[Hotfoot]

It was a moronic plan from the start. But I do think people are rushing a bit to give themselves a bit too much advantage in seeing through everything as well. I've seen that kill things as badly.

People have made groans before, but by and large most people have stuck to in-character ruses pretty well. While there was a fair amount of grumbling OOC, nobody ever really acted on it.

We've got a game with mages, vampires, and all manner of magical creatures. The idea that a race of living dead would have a seriously lessened life support need is not implausible.

The Arcanists were questionable from the get-go, and Pablo's Vampires are "storyline only", not an entire power in and of themselves. Also, the ability is not in his OOB, which makes the entire point moot, as that is something which would very clearly be a notable point to mention, as it affects the balance of the game.

I don't think that and you're seriously missing the point of the analogy. FTL travel is quiet simply going to involve a lot more effort than real space travel and most ships quite simply aren't going to be set up for running at FTL for weeks on end.

I don't see why not. Star Trek ships could do FTL for weeks on end as I remember it. Since we're using roughly DS9 tech level, why wouldn't our ships be capable of similar deployments?

[Stormbringer]

People have made groans before, but by and large most people have stuck to in-character ruses pretty well. While there was a fair amount of grumbling OOC, nobody ever really acted on it.

On the contrary, I think the constant bickering (whether in game or out) is near to driving people away. I know it did for me and it seems to me that it has with other people. I'd really rather settle it once and for all rather than have it kill a game like what happened to the first one. Or have it die for lack of participation like the second (both second ones).l

The Arcanists were questionable from the get-go, and Pablo's Vampires are "storyline only", not an entire power in and of themselves.

Both of which are still allowed though. Perhaps, if Beowulf is willing (since this doesn't seem to be settled any time soon) he simply be allowed to start over with a less complicating power.

Also, the ability is not in his OOB, which makes the entire point moot, as that is something which would very clearly be a notable point to mention, as it affects the balance of the game.

OOB/Nation pages aren't meant to be exhaustive coverings of every little quirk and consequence of a nation. The idea that a quasi-undead power would need less in the way of consumables, would seem to be to me to be a case of a logically derived characteristic. Maybe I'm just giving new players too much credit.

I don't see why not. Star Trek ships could do FTL for weeks on end as I remember it. Since we're using roughly DS9 tech level, why wouldn't our ships be capable of similar deployments?

I wouldn't say weeks on end. And we know for a fact that the higher warps can't be sustained reliably for very long.

[Hotfoot]

On the contrary, I think the constant bickering (whether in game or out) is near to driving people away. I know it did for me and it seems to me that it has with other people. I'd really rather settle it once and for all rather than have it kill a game like what happened to the first one. Or have it die for lack of participation like the second (both second ones).

Settle what though? I don't quite see what you're getting at. I think it's been generally agreed on at this point that so long as the subterfuge is a decent attempt, it won't be seen through right away. This was simply not a decent attempt.

As for dying from a lack of participation, I have to say that unnaturally extending events as Beowulf has done by simply not responding has done more to hurt the STGOD than Thirdfain and Bugsby's vacation.

Both of which are still allowed though. Perhaps, if Beowulf is willing (since this doesn't seem to be settled any time soon) he simply be allowed to start over with a less complicating power.

I'd be fine with that, but only on the condition that he doesn't commit to things he can't follow up on. I don't want to be tied down again by a thread he started because he can only post once a week.

OOB/Nation pages aren't meant to be exhaustive coverings of every little quirk and consequence of a nation. The idea that a quasi-undead power would need less in the way of consumables, would seem to be to me to be a case of a logically derived characteristic. Maybe I'm just giving new players too much credit.

It was mentioned before in this thread that something which would affect deployment times of fleets or so forth such as not needing/requiring less supplies was a fairly important detail. This is not minutae, and it does not logically follow from what his stated abilities in his OOB are. Once again, I bring back the Highlander example. They can come back from the dead over and over again, but they still need food and drink and everything else a human needs in order to function normally.

I wouldn't say weeks on end. And we know for a fact that the higher warps can't be sustained reliably for very long.

Right, which is why I made refence in a previous post talking about taking your time and redlining your engines.

FTL doesn't even have to be "full speed". As has been pointed out numerous times in this STGOD, there's a huge difference between redlining one's FTL and taking your time.

[Stormbringer]

Settle what though? I don't quite see what you're getting at. I think it's been generally agreed on at this point that so long as the subterfuge is a decent attempt, it won't be seen through right away. This was simply not a decent attempt.

It wasn't a particularly good attempt. But then again everyone also immediately saw through everything which has been a continuing problem in this game.

As for dying from a lack of participation, I have to say that unnaturally extending events as Beowulf has done by simply not responding has done more to hurt the STGOD than Thirdfain and Bugsby's vacation.

It's not the vacations I'm worried about so much as the constant fucking bickering and bitching. That kills games, and quick. And when some one has intermittent access and everythings a fight that tends to slow things down.

Basically, I just want to end this constant fighting all the time.

I'd be fine with that, but only on the condition that he doesn't commit to things he can't follow up on. I don't want to be tied down again by a thread he started because he can only post once a week.

He's hardly the only one that only posts intermittantly. Darksider and a number of others do the same. Patience is a virtue.

Never the less, I think perhaps asking him to go with a less contentious power might be a good idea.

It was mentioned before in this thread that something which would affect deployment times of fleets or so forth such as not needing/requiring less supplies was a fairly important detail. This is not minutae, and it does not logically follow from what his stated abilities in his OOB are.

And he's stated some of this and perhaps, like myself, given too much credit to people that they could understand some things with out having it hammered home in extreme detail. The idea that a power operating at long range is capable of that shouldn't really come as a suprise.

Once again, I bring back the Highlander example. They can come back from the dead over and over again, but they still need food and drink and everything else a human needs in order to function normally.

Unless he's using Highlander as a basis, dictating how his power ought to run is bad form.

Right, which is why I made refence in a previous post talking about taking your time and redlining your engines.

It's not a matter of redlining drives. It's a matter of a power that is set up to make long voyages being more capable of endurance than those that aren't.

[Marcao]

Here are my two cents on the matter.

The attempt of the Lying Darkness to infiltrate the trade fair and all that it entails was handled extremely poorly. As a result of this, the Ravenlock used the proper tools (ie, psykers) to get the necessary information. I have no problems with this as when you fuck up and don't properly cover your ass, other players will try to gain an advantage.

As to the so called "constant fucking bickering and bitching" in the OOC thread, that revolves around certain people that seem to overflow with bullshit. This game WILL die if people don't seek out and stamp out bullshit whereever they find it, and Beowulf's attempt to get away unscathed because since he has das uber engines does not fill me with confidence. By having your base of operations weeks out of the way, you gain a multitide of advantages. There HAVE to be some fucking disadvatanges as well, so the idea that the Ousters and the Lying Darkness have incredible engines because they are so far away does not sit well with me. If Beowulf can't post often, that is regrettable and he should avoid entangling himself in situations where he needs to be posting. His vanishing acts incite bickering and bitching fests. If he discovers that he does not have the time for the game, then he should not be participating in the first place. I refuse to suffer for the vagaries of his schedule.

I have no problems if he is going to make a new power, although unsurprisingly I will not go out of my way to engage with him in any meaningful way until he shows that he can be online often enough to participate in a timely fashion.

[Hotfoot]

It wasn't a particularly good attempt. But then again everyone also immediately saw through everything which has been a continuing problem in this game.

Again, I don't exactly see where that's been happening. Could you cite an example?

It's not the vacations I'm worried about so much as the constant fucking bickering and bitching. That kills games, and quick. And when some one has intermittent access and everythings a fight that tends to slow things down.

We've managed to survive a lot of bickering and bitching so far, and while I do admit it wears on me at times, it can be resolved reasonably, and the amount of bitching since Laz left has been miraculously low.

Basically, I just want to end this constant fighting all the time.

There wasn't fighting until BS was pulled. There's a reason for that. I'm willing to work with people a great deal, but I expect something in return. I wasn't getting it, so I put my foot down.

He's hardly the only one that only posts intermittantly. Darksider and a number of others do the same. Patience is a virtue.

Yes, but there's a difference between not posting much and staying out of the way of major events. Imagine if Thirdfain had launched a massive invasion of the Asgard mere days before he had to leave, then disappeared without telling anyone and without appointing anyone to control his forces in the iterim. The STGOD would be dead inside a week.

The point is, don't embroil yourself in huge events if you cannot follow through. It's not much to ask, really.

And he's stated some of this and perhaps, like myself, given too much credit to people that they could understand some things with out having it hammered home in extreme detail. The idea that a power operating at long range is capable of that shouldn't really come as a suprise.

If this were his standard fleet, I might be more inclined to agree with you, but when one is making high quality replicas of other nation's ships, you have to throw your nation's own design philosophies out the window if you expect the ruse to be even remotely believable. I would imagine that concept is relatively obvious. They have to behave like KSE ships in order to be effective, and that would include things like FTL speed, range, supplies on board, control terminals, and so forth down to the factory markings and serial numbers on all the parts. Otherwise just about anybody would easily see through the shams.

Unless he's using Highlander as a basis, dictating how his power ought to run is bad form.

You're missing the point. The idea of reduced need for food and water is NOT implied in his OOB, NOR is it logical to assume that because they can come back from the dead, they can get by on fewer (or no) supplies.

It's not a matter of redlining drives. It's a matter of a power that is set up to make long voyages being more capable of endurance than those that aren't.

Okay, I'll spell this out I guess.
1. Star Trek ships can maintain FTL for weeks
2. This STGOD is roughly DS9 tech level
3. Thus, roughly any power in known space can maintain FTL travel for weeks if need be.

Note that I am not saying that any known space power can maintain top speed for several weeks on end, much less redlined drives. At best, what such an endurance advantage would equate to would be a slight increase of speed on very long trips, but that's about it. Also, if you really want to get into it, if that's the case, then it would make sense that shorter range voyages would put the cross country champion at something of a disadvantage, wouldn't you think?

After all, the Ousters (who are the only other major "out there" power) have slower FTL than the rest of us, presumably for a similar reason.

[SirNitram]

Get the fuck on with it, whatever is done.

Though this behavior is getting noticably repetitious. What happened in the last STGOD when Beowulf was screwed over by his own stupidity? He mysteriously withdrawls..

Wow, you're a real fucking genius. You might realize that he left to join the airforce then. Paying attention to something like that might help.

Wow, you completely miss the point. He does something stupid and suicidal right before joining the air force. Convenient for him, death for the STGOD.

[InnocentBystander]

I vote that, we diverge the timeline. Hotfoot can "unpause" things and go about his business, when Beowulf returns whatever happens can simply be added into the storyline. I seriously doubt this will create any significant problems. After all, it is very unfair for beowulf to put anyone into such a position. By the by, please direct me to the page where Beowulf stated info on his absence, I seem to have missed it.

[Stormbringer]

It wasn't a particularly good attempt. But then again everyone also immediately saw through everything which has been a continuing problem in this game.

Again, I don't exactly see where that's been happening. Could you cite an example?

The constant need to fight and bitch and simply dicuss to death every little thing rather than playing the damn game and just rolling with it. Everyone has been doing this for this game and it just gets wearing.

This Beowulf thing is only the latest. And frankly I don't at all think it's fair to blame it all on him.

[Stormbringer]

Get the fuck on with it, whatever is done.

Though this behavior is getting noticably repetitious. What happened in the last STGOD when Beowulf was screwed over by his own stupidity? He mysteriously withdrawls..

Wow, you're a real fucking genius. You might realize that he left to join the airforce then. Paying attention to something like that might help.

Wow, you completely miss the point. He does something stupid and suicidal right before joining the air force. Convenient for him, death for the STGOD.

Not, the kiss of death for it wasn't him leaving but the fact that I lost interest thanks to the rather heavy handed modding. Since I was the sole player actively engaged in the opposition, that left it where we found it. It had little to do with Beowulf.