American cultural hegemony

[RedImperator]

I'm going to join Son of the Suns in the "I never encounter anyone but foreigners talking about such a thing" category.

Myself as well, most Americans just don't care enough to know.

A quote from somewhere--sadly, I can't remember the source. "Most Americans couldn't care less if they're eating Twinkies in Tehran, and don't understand when foreigners get angry about such things."

[Son of the Suns]

I'm going to join Son of the Suns in the "I never encounter anyone but foreigners talking about such a thing" category.

Myself as well, most Americans just don't care enough to know.

A quote from somewhere--sadly, I can't remember the source. "Most Americans couldn't care less if they're eating Twinkies in Tehran, and don't understand when foreigners get angry about such things."

Boo hoo, those meany American corporations have come into my pristine (re:starving, disease ridden, oppressive, jobless) paradise and have given us jobs that pay us more than we would ever earn locally, products we would never have the option or the capability of buying locally, and the concept of a better life than what our forefathers for umpteenth generations have had. Damn straight we don't care if they are angry. If it pisses them off so much then they shouldn't buy the stuff ( never mind the fact that much of it is produced locally and it would only hurt themselves.)

[Uraniun235]

A quote from somewhere--sadly, I can't remember the source. "Most Americans couldn't care less if they're eating Twinkies in Tehran, and don't understand when foreigners get angry about such things."

They're angry because... we're selling things to people? I don't understand why they're angry at us for selling shit when they should be bitching at their own countrymen.

[Guardsman Bass]

A quote from somewhere--sadly, I can't remember the source. "Most Americans couldn't care less if they're eating Twinkies in Tehran, and don't understand when foreigners get angry about such things."

They're angry because... we're selling things to people? I don't understand why they're angry at us for selling shit when they should be bitching at their own countrymen.

It's easier to focus your anger on the messenger(i.e someone who can't find back and doesn't bother) than to direct it at the people who could severely harm you for your angry reaction. Plus, of course, there may be a bit of jealousy involved- they may be thinking "Why aren't WE selling things to Americans?"

[Darth Wong]

It's easier to focus your anger on the messenger(i.e someone who can't find back and doesn't bother) than to direct it at the people who could severely harm you for your angry reaction. Plus, of course, there may be a bit of jealousy involved- they may be thinking "Why aren't WE selling things to Americans?"

You assume too much. As someone whose culture is much closer to yours than the rest of the world but is still different than your own, I'd say that they're angry at the assumption (widespread among Americans although I imagine people will deny it) that the rest of the world needs to emulate your values in order to achieve happiness.

In other words, they're saying "we'll buy your blue jeans, drink your Coca-Cola, and watch your Hollywood movies, but stop telling us that this means we want to be like you, because we don't. We just like your stuff."

[Thinkmarble]

I'm pretty mmuch pissed off because of the missionaries send to my city by american churchs to convert people back to christianity.
Why do you have to sent your creationists around the world ?
I like to live in a nation where a majority are nonbelievers.

[Thinkmarble]

Replace majority with one third.

[Son of the Suns]

I'd say that they're angry at the assumption (widespread among Americans although I imagine people will deny it) that the rest of the world needs to emulate your values in order to achieve happiness.

If by values you mean values like free enterprise and democratically elected government, then I would say that yes, Americans do think that the rest of world needs to emulate these values if they want to be happy. I think that history vindicates such an opinion, considering that these values are allowed a nation that was laughed at 90 years ago to become the most powerful nation in the world. The absence, or even watering down, of such values are the reason every other government in history has failed in the long run. The reason people see these values which are universally desired among people as American is becuase we were the first to institute them successfully and we are the living embodiment of the fact that such a system can work, and work better than anyother system. Ask any oppressed people in the world and those are what they value. Mike you are speaking from the view point of someone who lives under a European sytle government, and I have also noticed that all the people complaining in this fashion also live in European countries, many of whom live in stable countries only because they have adopted American style government. Every person, and I mean every single person that I've talked to from south america, sub-saharan africa, asia, or eastern europe who has lived in areas where governments exist that do not function based on these values love America and the values it stands for. They want their countries to be like America because living under a government and with a people who value such things is what makes them happy.

I think that many Europeans are angry because they see our success as a point of arrogance, and I'll grant that that would be an easy conclusion to come to every time you see a crowd of Americans chanting "USA, USA, as nausem." The reason we do so is because we are proud of what we have accomplish as a people, not because we want to rub it in peoples faces. The frustrating thing is that every time we try to help anyone else out in the world through aid or what not a bunch European blowhards that conveniently forget that they are living in free societies because of the effort that Americans made in the their past cry foul. It's not the people in these countries that don't want us to help them, they want to have the lifestyle Americans enjoy, it's the one's we've already helped like the Germans and French.

[Crown]

I'd say that they're angry at the assumption (widespread among Americans although I imagine people will deny it) that the rest of the world needs to emulate your values in order to achieve happiness.

If by values you mean values like free enterprise and democratically elected government, then I would say that yes, Americans do think that the rest of world needs to emulate these values if they want to be happy. <snippy>

You will now provide evidence of where America has promoted such values ...

[PainRack]

Ask any oppressed people in the world and those are what they value. Mike you are speaking from the view point of someone who lives under a European sytle government, and I have also noticed that all the people complaining in this fashion also live in European countries, many of whom live in stable countries only because they have adopted American style government. Every person, and I mean every single person that I've talked to from south america, sub-saharan africa, asia, or eastern europe who has lived in areas where governments exist that do not function based on these values love America and the values it stands for. They want their countries to be like America because living under a government and with a people who value such things is what makes them happy.

Define American style government. If that just means a president along with elections, a huge number of countries in Africia and South America qualify, but not European countries.

Furthermore, the question isn't about the values of democracy and enterprise. Yes, America did once represent those values, but ever since the materialistic 80s, the perception of America has turned, viewing them as , ahem, capitalistic corporate consumerist dogs, even while America reverts to a more spiritual, religious or philosophical lifestyle.

The frustrating thing is that every time we try to help anyone else out in the world through aid or what not a bunch European blowhards that conveniently forget that they are living in free societies because of the effort that Americans made in the their past cry foul. It's not the people in these countries that don't want us to help them, they want to have the lifestyle Americans enjoy, it's the one's we've already helped like the Germans and French.

Actually, that's more probably because America doesn't value the input of others.

I realise one thing about many Americans. They are very insular. After all, they are an entire continent, and the world hyper-power.
However, a side-effect of this outlook is that a lot of times, they think that unless its American, its not good. Its hard to really say what this attitude is and can only be felt. Its not even a real truth, because the reason why they think that way, is because they don't know anything else better.

[Son of the Suns]

You will now provide evidence of where America has promoted such values ...

The very existence of America has promoted such values by proving that a government is capable of existing through democratic elections. America has promoted it most recently in Iraq.

[Crown]

You will now provide evidence of where America has promoted such values ...

The very existence of America has promoted such values by proving that a government is capable of existing through democratic elections. America has promoted it most recently in Iraq.

BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


*takes a deep breath*


BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


*wipes tear from eye*

Thanks, I needed that.


EDIT :: If you were wondering why I didn't 'rebut' anything, its because I asked you to present some evidence, and well you didn't so...

[Son of the Suns]

Define American style government. If that just means a president along with elections, a huge number of countries in Africia and South America qualify, but not European countries.

American style government is the kind that is freely elected, as opposed to a monarchy, dictatorship, or theocracy that exists in most of the world.

Furthermore, the question isn't about the values of democracy and enterprise.

To the people living in nations where those values don't exist and consider then tied to what it is to be "American" in it is.

Edit: added "it" so the sentence makes sense.

Yes, America did once represent those values, but ever since the materialistic 80s, the perception of America has turned, viewing them as , ahem, capitalistic corporate consumerist dogs, even while America reverts to a more spiritual, religious or philosophical lifestyle.

To people who don't live in free societies America continues to represent these values.

they think that unless its American, its not good. Its hard to really say what this attitude is and can only be felt. Its not even a real truth, because the reason why they think that way, is because they don't know anything else better.

By American, I mean what is thought of as American by those who live in countries where free enterprise and democratic government don't exist, and thousands of years of recorded history have shown us that the absence of these values will lead to tyranny and oppression. So yes, what is American in this case, is best, and it has proven itself so.

[Son of the Suns]

EDIT :: If you were wondering why I didn't 'rebut' anything, its because I asked you to present some evidence, and well you didn't so...

Your inability to see the obvious boogles my mind. Instead of appointing a strong leader who could make Iraq in to America's puppet, we have allowed them to have free elections, appointing people who, from the looks of the people they want, will immediately work to deny that freedom. We aren't forcing them to elect the people we want, we are giving them the choice, even if they make the wrong one.

[Son of the Suns]

BTW, if ya'll think I'm pulling the view points of these third world people out of my ass, it all comes from talking to the large number of people at my college from Serbia, Pakistan, India, Zimbabwie, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Columbia, China, Lebanon, and Cambodia.



Edit: I would note that several of these people have lived through death camps and such in their countries, so I consider what their opinion of how freedom affects a society slightly more accurate than what some who is a natural born citizen of the US, Canada, or Western Europe.

[AniThyng]

BTW, if ya'll think I'm pulling the view points of these third world people out of my ass, it all comes from talking to the large number of people at my college from Serbia, Pakistan, India, Zimbabwie, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Columbia, China, Lebanon, and Cambodia.



Edit: I would note that several of these people have lived through death camps and such in their countries, so I consider what their opinion of how freedom affects a society slightly more accurate than what some who is a natural born citizen of the US, Canada, or Western Europe.

with all due respect, after reading countless threads here on your two-party system with it's unelectable third party candidates and vicious left and right extremism, i fail to see how america is a viable model at all for political governance.

i think i'll rather just keep my country's rubber stamp of a 3rd world parliamentary system thank you very much. it may be crap but at least it's our own crap.

[Son of the Suns]

with all due respect, after reading countless threads here on your two-party system with it's unelectable third party candidates and vicious left and right extremism, i fail to see how america is a viable model at all for political governance.

Regardless of the outcomes, they are free elections. If America wanted a third party candidate, he/she would be elected. The important thing is that we are free to elect the people we want.

i think i'll rather just keep my country's rubber stamp of a 3rd world parliamentary system thank you very much. it may be crap but at least it's our own crap.

I don't know what you mean by "rubber stamp" but if it is even in the slightest way a democracy it was probably based off of America or another country that modeled it's government after America.

If you mean that you cannot freely elect people, and you enjoy that, then I feel sorry for you, because unless you live your life conforming to the majority it will be a miserable life indeed.

[Dahak]

I don't know what you mean by "rubber stamp" but if it is even in the slightest way a democracy it was probably based off of America or another country that modeled it's government after America.

If you mean that you cannot freely elect people, and you enjoy that, then I feel sorry for you, because unless you live your life conforming to the majority it will be a miserable life indeed.

Sorry, but I get sick from your arrogance.
There are democratic, elected, systems in the world, that are NOT based on your precious American system.
European-style parliamentary democracies are distinctively un-American, and if you looked at the German constitution, you'd see that we, too, aren't living with a copy of your precious system.
Or for an extreme example take Switzerland, which has more democratic elements than you can ever hope to have in the USA.

[AniThyng]

with all due respect, after reading countless threads here on your two-party system with it's unelectable third party candidates and vicious left and right extremism, i fail to see how america is a viable model at all for political governance.

Regardless of the outcomes, they are free elections. If America wanted a third party candidate, he/she would be elected. The important thing is that we are free to elect the people we want.

right, that's why you're all voting not for who you want against who you don't want.


i think i'll rather just keep my country's rubber stamp of a 3rd world parliamentary system thank you very much. it may be crap but at least it's our own crap.

I don't know what you mean by "rubber stamp" but if it is even in the slightest way a democracy it was probably based off of America or another country that modeled it's government after America.

If you mean that you cannot freely elect people, and you enjoy that, then I feel sorry for you, because unless you live your life conforming to the majority it will be a miserable life indeed.

okay, i concede, it's a british style westminsterian parliamentary constitutional monarchy., i said rubber stamp because the ruling party has over 2/3rd of parliament by such a confortable margin the opposition is can't realistically do much other then make noise, and we've historically had very strong PM's, so the legislature is much less important then it should be [i didn't mean it in the context of say, the PRC's congress]

meh. maybe u can call me complecent, because i'm middle class, and unrestriected broadband internet allows me to say "fuck you" to the film and TV censorship board, and i've got enough money to enjoy american cultural exports. and i can vote between a boring secular government lackey or a religious zealot

just saying it is possible to lead a good life as a average citizen even in countries that you would consider far short of your standard of "freedom"

[Dahak]

I'd say that they're angry at the assumption (widespread among Americans although I imagine people will deny it) that the rest of the world needs to emulate your values in order to achieve happiness.

If by values you mean values like free enterprise and democratically elected government, then I would say that yes, Americans do think that the rest of world needs to emulate these values if they want to be happy. I think that history vindicates such an opinion, considering that these values are allowed a nation that was laughed at 90 years ago to become the most powerful nation in the world. The absence, or even watering down, of such values are the reason every other government in history has failed in the long run. The reason people see these values which are universally desired among people as American is becuase we were the first to institute them successfully and we are the living embodiment of the fact that such a system can work, and work better than anyother system. Ask any oppressed people in the world and those are what they value. Mike you are speaking from the view point of someone who lives under a European sytle government, and I have also noticed that all the people complaining in this fashion also live in European countries, many of whom live in stable countries only because they have adopted American style government. Every person, and I mean every single person that I've talked to from south america, sub-saharan africa, asia, or eastern europe who has lived in areas where governments exist that do not function based on these values love America and the values it stands for. They want their countries to be like America because living under a government and with a people who value such things is what makes them happy.

I think that many Europeans are angry because they see our success as a point of arrogance, and I'll grant that that would be an easy conclusion to come to every time you see a crowd of Americans chanting "USA, USA, as nausem." The reason we do so is because we are proud of what we have accomplish as a people, not because we want to rub it in peoples faces. The frustrating thing is that every time we try to help anyone else out in the world through aid or what not a bunch European blowhards that conveniently forget that they are living in free societies because of the effort that Americans made in the their past cry foul. It's not the people in these countries that don't want us to help them, they want to have the lifestyle Americans enjoy, it's the one's we've already helped like the Germans and French.

Those people don't want a mini-America, they want their own version of freedom and democracy.
The world buys American goods, and watches American movies. That doesn't mean they want to become Americans.
Each culture has it's own distinct unique elements, and they tend to want to have them in the future, as well.
As for your example of Germany: We have our own culture, values, and outlooks. And they're not an American copy, even though so seem to believe so...

[Son of the Suns]

Sorry, but I get sick from your arrogance.
There are democratic, elected, systems in the world, that are NOT based on your precious American system.
European-style parliamentary democracies are distinctively un-American, and if you looked at the German constitution, you'd see that we, too, aren't living with a copy of your precious system.
Or for an extreme example take Switzerland, which has more democratic elements than you can ever hope to have in the USA.

Ok dipshit since you lack the capacity to understand what I've said several times before let me spell it out for you.

By the American system, I do NOT mean a president, bicameral legislature, etc.

I do mean free elections and free enterprise. I go by this defintion because we are talking about what people outside America see it as, and specifically outside Europe. These are things that were nearly non existent in most of Europe up until those principles were put into practice in America.

I don't give a fuck what form your democratically elected government takes on, the point is it probably wouldn't exist without an example of a strong democracy being created else where in the world, and definitely wouldn't exist if we hadn't helped save you stupid sheep from that insane dictator that you put into place 60 years ago.

[Son of the Suns]

just saying it is possible to lead a good life as a average citizen even in countries that you would consider far short of your standard of "freedom"

And what if your society put someone in power who happened to think your little corner of the population needed to be extinquished? There is nothing you could do to stop them, and that is why I say that democratically elected governments are the only kind that survive in the long run. You exist in a situation that just begs for a tyrant to come along and abuse the system.

Which is, incidentally, why so many Americans do not like the Patriot Act. It's not necessarily abusing Americans now, but it creates the possibility for abuse.

[Son of the Suns]

Those people don't want a mini-America, they want their own version of freedom and democracy.
The world buys American goods, and watches American movies. That doesn't mean they want to become Americans.
Each culture has it's own distinct unique elements, and they tend to want to have them in the future, as well.
As for your example of Germany: We have our own culture, values, and outlooks. And they're not an American copy, even though so seem to believe so...

I'm not saying that they want to be Americans, I'm saying they want to be free, a quality which they equate with America.


Edit: Also, once again, I'm not just comming up with this on my own. This is what a wide variety of people from countries where these values are not in practice have told me.

[Spyder]

I'd say that they're angry at the assumption (widespread among Americans although I imagine people will deny it) that the rest of the world needs to emulate your values in order to achieve happiness.

If by values you mean values like free enterprise and democratically elected government, then I would say that yes, Americans do think that the rest of world needs to emulate these values if they want to be happy.

I can't honestly see how these values should be labeled as American given that the US implementation is extremely...problematic? In the former you've got one-sided tariffs and unrealistic expectations of export partners as well as irreseponsible corporate regulation and in the later you've got a two party system, generated from campaigns based on special interest incentives actively preventing any elected government from not being corrupt, the system escapes the term dictatorship on a technicality.

I think that history vindicates such an opinion, considering that these values are allowed a nation that was laughed at 90 years ago to become the most powerful nation in the world. The absence, or even watering down, of such values are the reason every other government in history has failed in the long run. The reason people see these values which are universally desired among people as American is becuase we were the first to institute them successfully and we are the living embodiment of the fact that such a system can work, and work better than anyother system. Ask any oppressed people in the world and those are what they value. Mike you are speaking from the view point of someone who lives under a European sytle government, and I have also noticed that all the people complaining in this fashion also live in European countries, many of whom live in stable countries only because they have adopted American style government. Every person, and I mean every single person that I've talked to from south america, sub-saharan africa, asia, or eastern europe who has lived in areas where governments exist that do not function based on these values love America and the values it stands for.

Did you happen to ask them if they actually sat down and compared American values with the values of other free nations?

They want their countries to be like America because living under a government and with a people who value such things is what makes them happy.

I think that many Europeans are angry because they see our success as a point of arrogance, and I'll grant that that would be an easy conclusion to come to every time you see a crowd of Americans chanting "USA, USA, as nausem." The reason we do so is because we are proud of what we have accomplish as a people, not because we want to rub it in peoples faces. The frustrating thing is that every time we try to help anyone else out in the world through aid or what not a bunch European blowhards that conveniently forget that they are living in free societies because of the effort that Americans made in the their past cry foul. It's not the people in these countries that don't want us to help them, they want to have the lifestyle Americans enjoy, it's the one's we've already helped like the Germans and French.

Well, personally I don't think the chanting is really what bothers them/us/ect. What bothers European nations are the claims, fairly similar to what you just posted, about American motives being altruistic and or claims of being the holy bastian of peace, democracy and freedom. This is an opinion that is very much vindicated by history. For one thing, American motives are seldom if ever altruistic. In the example you mentioned about having helped the Germans and the French, the US did nothing to aid the allied war effort until it felt that it's own borders were threatened. Now the same can be said about the other European nations, none of them interveined to save the German jews, they only interveined after Germany proved itself to be a threat to the surrounding nations. The crucial difference however is that these European nations don't deny this. The very claim that democracy is an American ideal is another one. Problems with America's internal implimentation aside, there are numerous instances of the US supporting foreign dictators and even in examples such as Iran actually toppling a democratically elected government and installing a pro-US dictator. As for free enterprise, that claim is quite simply a joke. Ask any New Zealand steel worker what they think of US trade policies. The US spokesman will bleat about free trade and how we should drop the unfair an unneccessary import duties while in the meantime Bush imposes increased steel tarrifs, crippling the competitiveness of our steel exports.

So you'll find that adverse reactions to the mention of American cultural hegemony is not completely unfounded.

[Son of the Suns]

I can't honestly see how these values should be labeled as American given that the US implementation is extremely...problematic? In the former you've got one-sided tariffs and unrealistic expectations of export partners as well as irreseponsible corporate regulation and in the later you've got a two party system, generated from campaigns based on special interest incentives actively preventing any elected government from not being corrupt, the system escapes the term dictatorship on a technicality.

Once again, I am referring to the ideals of democratic elections and free enterprise, not the system of government. It really doesn't matter what exists in reality, the fact is that many people in the third world view America as the place where these ideals are put into practice and proof that they work.

Did you happen to ask them if they actually sat down and compared American values with the values of other free nations?

Actually, they brought it up on their own. Some of them mentioned that they liked Canada about the same as America, but all liked America better than Europe. The Eastern Europeans and Africans I talked to seem to have a rather low opinion of Western Europe, and the Asians no opinion at all. Like I said before, I'm not talking about whether you have a PM or president, but whether it's a democratically free system. When asked what country came to mind when thinking about that they always said America, not France, Spain, England or any other European country.

Well, personally I don't think the chanting is really what bothers them/us/ect. What bothers European nations are the claims, fairly similar to what you just posted, about American motives being altruistic and or claims of being the holy bastian of peace, democracy and freedom. This is an opinion that is very much vindicated by history. For one thing, American motives are seldom if ever altruistic. In the example you mentioned about having helped the Germans and the French, the US did nothing to aid the allied war effort until it felt that it's own borders were threatened. Now the same can be said about the other European nations, none of them interveined to save the German jews, they only interveined after Germany proved itself to be a threat to the surrounding nations. The crucial difference however is that these European nations don't deny this. The very claim that democracy is an American ideal is another one. Problems with America's internal implimentation aside, there are numerous instances of the US supporting foreign dictators and even in examples such as Iran actually toppling a democratically elected government and installing a pro-US dictator. As for free enterprise, that claim is quite simply a joke. Ask any New Zealand steel worker what they think of US trade policies. The US spokesman will bleat about free trade and how we should drop the unfair an unneccessary import duties while in the meantime Bush imposes increased steel tarrifs, crippling the competitiveness of our steel exports.

So you'll find that adverse reactions to the mention of American cultural hegemony is not completely unfounded.

I'm not talking about what exists in fact, but the way that people percieve America. Specifically, that the reactions to America that you see here are not what is the norm in countries where people are not actually free.