American cultural hegemony

[Son of the Suns]

The IDEAL of american "freedom" and "democracy" is quite different from the REALITY of american freedom and democracy, isn't it?

Once again, the point of my arguement is that it doesn't matter what reality is, the fact of the matter is that many people in countries that don't enjoy freedom equate those ideals with what it is to be American.

has it occured to you that it's implementation in places other then america might be even more flawed then it already is? particularly when it is forced upon that society? and this is somehow a GOOD THING?

Completely beyond the point of the discussion, but I agree that you cannot force the values of a society on the people of another society and expect success. The people that are normally crying foul when America says that a society should become a democracy are the people that are in power, and therefore are the ones that have everything to lose by becomming a decmocracy.

and it's not that ideal that is necessarily what we get. in reality, we end up with...Reality Television...Macdonalds....Britney Spears...these are arguably net cultural minuses.

I don't believe I have ever seen anyone forced at gunpoint to eat Big Mac, watch Survivor, or listen to Britney Spears. People didn't line up for miles outside of the first McDonald's in Moscow because they were pissed off at an American megacorporation, they did so because McD's offered them a service that they wanted. All you're getting out of America is what you want, quit buying our shit and it'll disappear from your stores.

if my countrymen desire more freedom then what we enjoy, we'd prefer to think we want it for our own sakes, not because America preaches it at every turn and holds itself out as the model.

I'm not saying you should give up what you enjoy for freedom, just simply warning you that to live in such a way invites the possibility of tyranny. Reminds me of something FDR said:

In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved.

[Son of the Suns]

Ok let me respond to this first, then I'll get to the rest.

Just a sec, I'm getting to it. I'm trying to stay on my main point.

By avoiding contradictory evidence? Look, if you had said America stands for the free market economy and individual capitalism I would have, on the whole, agreed.

But your almost GOP line about 'freedom and democracy' is so full of shit, you might as well be a septic tank. America's willingness -- no almost enthusiastic desire to -- tople democratic governments and place puppet regimes in place have been well documented and thoroughly established. No one in their right mind can even deny it.

What most do, is attempt to rationalise it; we were fighting the cold war, and we toppeled democracies to save themselves, from themselves and promote democracy and freedom under dictatorships ( ). Or like Axis (at least the guy is honest); might makes right.

America, like every nation, is interested in promoting its national interests and buissness concerns. Most of everybody else can admit this, for some reason Americans have to hide behind the bullshit of 'promoting democracy' or some such to sell it to the ignorant American masses. The fact that most of the rest of the world calls a spade a spade is where the problem arises. Oh, point of fact; I am a non-American, so I think I am qualified to discuss what bothers me about America, its 'exportation of values' and the real reason behind it.

Ok I think I can clear this up. In my original post you concentrated soley on the fact that I used Iraq as an example, not the first and more important part of my statement ( I did post more than one sentence to )

I whole heartedly agree that the American government's history of supporting democracy elsewhere in the world has been rather dismil, especially during the Cold War in Central America, but the main contribution America has made to democracy has not been the actions of the government, but through it's very existence. The fact that a society was created and succeeded that was based on the free election of it's policy makers spurred other nations to adopt such systems of government either willing or through revolution.

As far as Iraq goes, I do believe it is an example of America promoting democracy, despite the amount of control that we are currently exerting on the country, which give it's volital status is more than justified, but that is not the point of this discussion.

As to you being qualified to speak on your feelings of America, you certainly are, but all non Americans do not enjoy the same amount of freedom, and those that do not enjoy it at all have a different view point of America than you do.

[Son of the Suns]

I think SOTS inadvertently hit on the real problem non-Americans have with American culture: its insistence that certain widely accepted values are somehow "American", ie- the common belief that to be "free" is somehow intrinsically American, or that democracy is somehow intrinsically American.

That is exactly my point. Since I'm debating with three or four people who are repeating the same argument ad nausem I'll say it again, it doesn't matter whether you think America in reality exibits these ideals, what matters is that many people in the third world do see these ideals as American.

[frigidmagi]

Happy like the United States, huh? Are you guys happy that your freedom is getting choked by the Patriat Act? Are you happy that you're public enemy no. 1 in the eyes of roughly 1 in 6 people? Does it make you giggle that terrorists are right now planning to use a WMD in one of your major cities? If only Cuba was so happy....

1: Millions of America do not have their rights impacted by the Pariot act.
2: Over 180 cities have passed laws forbidding the use of it or cooperation with any agency invoking it.
3: Most of the libaries in the States have sworn to burn and trash their record before allowing them to be used by the acts.

Has for your public enemy, we're not they ones we want to make a new oppressive super state. If you're dumb enough to think democracy is more of a danger to you, than roll around all you want in your stupidity. Terrorist have been saying they're going to nuke New York for years. TALK IS CHEAP BUBBA.

If they did use a WMD on a US city, you think we gone far now, you ain't seen shit.

[Spyder]

I'm just a little curious as about what criteria you're using to say that these traits are "American." The concepts weren't developed in the US and as I and others have already pointed out their implimentation within the US isn't that great, and as others have pointed out there are other countries that have implimented the ideals of democracy, freedom ect to a much higher standard. Are you saying that they work because of America's strong economy? If so then did you remember to factor in the trillions in trade debt the US has incurred in the process? Is it because the US has a strong military? If so then will freedom and democracy become New Zealand ideals if I can convince my government to start building lots of nukes?

You are completely missing the point. It wouldn't matter if America was a fascist dictatorship that was in the process of wiping out everyone with a certain body type, the fact is that people in countries that cannot by any standard be considered free have a concept of what "American" is and that concept is that to be "American" is to be free in a society where you pick the people that make policy by democratic election. That is their concept, whether it reflects reality or not is irrelevent.

So you admit that American cultural ideals are illusionary then?

So in other words, no? I'll rephrase, did they come to their conclusions based on knowledge of what they consider to be 'American ideals' or did they get some books out, look up some numbers and do some comparisons?

Several of the people are professors or international politics students at the university that I go to, so I would assume so. Once again, reality is irrelevent, what matters is their perception of America.

Are you willing to admit that the perception is false?

This goes beyond my point, but the economic state of a nation and it's dealings with other nations has absolutely no bearing on the freedom of the people who live inside it.

Well it kind of does actually, irresponsible corporate regulation ensures the transfer of freedoms from small business and individuals to larger corporates with more power, as demonstrated by any small company ever getting involved in a legal dispute with a larger one that can simply outspend it. Dealings with other nations have resulted in travel restrictions, eg Cuba. Now personally I don't consider having a government tell me where I can and can't go when I'm not even in the country to be a positive example of freedom. Those are examples of freedoms effected by economics and dealings with other nations, if you wish to explore this tangent further we can discuss other areas that are detrimental to personal freedoms.

So you agree then that democracy/freedom/free trade ect in relation to American ideals is actually hype?

No, I'm simply pointing out that what exists in reality, that is whether or not America actually reflects the ideals that are associated with it, is irrelevent to the disscussion.

So you're saying that American values are not hype, it's just that America doesn't actually meet them? ...But they're defenately not hype?

[Spyder]

That is exactly my point. Since I'm debating with three or four people who are repeating the same argument ad nausem I'll say it again, it doesn't matter whether you think America in reality exibits these ideals, what matters is that many people in the third world do see these ideals as American.

The reason people see these values which are universally desired among people as American is becuase we were the first to institute them successfully and we are the living embodiment of the fact that such a system can work, and work better than anyother system.

[Crown]

Ok let me respond to this first, then I'll get to the rest.

Just a sec, I'm getting to it. I'm trying to stay on my main point.

<snip me>

Ok I think I can clear this up. In my original post you concentrated soley on the fact that I used Iraq as an example, not the first and more important part of my statement ( I did post more than one sentence to )

I whole heartedly agree that the American government's history of supporting democracy elsewhere in the world has been rather dismil, especially during the Cold War in Central America, but the main contribution America has made to democracy has not been the actions of the government, but through it's very existence. The fact that a society was created and succeeded that was based on the free election of it's policy makers spurred other nations to adopt such systems of government either willing or through revolution.

America wasn't the only country to employ democratic prinicpals at that time. Nor were you the first in history to do so, and that hardly validates your uniqueness in the world.

As far as Iraq goes, I do believe it is an example of America promoting democracy, despite the amount of control that we are currently exerting on the country, which give it's volital status is more than justified, but that is not the point of this discussion.

YES. IT. IS. Ask any muslim in the world about what America is doing in Iraq; do you think 'supporting and encouraging democracy' is going to be anywhere in the top 10?

As to you being qualified to speak on your feelings of America, you certainly are, but all non Americans do not enjoy the same amount of freedom, and those that do not enjoy it at all have a different view point of America than you do.

Blatant bullshit. Coca-Cola, McDonalds and roads paved with gold would be closer to the truth of what 3rd world nations think of when they think of America.

EDIT :: And this whole exchange between you and me came about when you said; 'If by values you mean values like free enterprise and democratically elected government, then I would say that yes, Americans do think that the rest of world needs to emulate these values if they want to be happy.'

I asked you to provide valid examples where this has occured, I also said that if you had limited your spiel to 'free enterprise' I would have on the whole agreed with you. IT DOESN'T MATTER what the 'Americans' think in this regard David, when the actions of your government from WWII on down has been blatant; do as we say or else, to just about everyone.

And people around the world, are hip to it. THAT'S why you find Americans get jumped on when the through out rubbish like 'we bring democracy and freedom', because you don't. Period. You are either willfully ignorant, or blatantly insulting our intelligence when you try and sell us on that. And you can't convince me that I only think like this because I am from a modern world, David this is what most of the third world thinks, because you have been doing it to them,

[Son of the Suns]

So you admit that American cultural ideals are illusionary then?

WTF, you can't debate the point of the discussion?

As far as my own personal opinion, America's cultural ideals are not illusionary at all, and are still quite strong within the population. If they weren't you wouldn't see people reacting so strongly to bills that violate those ideals like the Patriot Act.

Are you willing to admit that the perception is false?

Why would I admit that that perception is false when it is so clearly not? Those people I talk about did not arrive here and say " Hey this isn't what I thought it was." and immigrate to a European country, even though many of them had lived in different parts of Europe for varying amount of times. No one can live up to perfection, or a perfect ideal, but those people have decided that America is certainly close enough to what they thought that they have decided to stay here and in some cases attain citizenship.

Well it kind of does actually, irresponsible corporate regulation ensures the transfer of freedoms from small business and individuals to larger corporates with more power, as demonstrated by any small company ever getting involved in a legal dispute with a larger one that can simply outspend it. Dealings with other nations have resulted in travel restrictions, eg Cuba. Now personally I don't consider having a government tell me where I can and can't go when I'm not even in the country to be a positive example of freedom. Those are examples of freedoms effected by economics and dealings with other nations, if you wish to explore this tangent further we can discuss other areas that are detrimental to personal freedoms.

You used the example of the American debt, which has no bearing on mine or any other American's freedom. I never said that America doesn't have it's flaws as far as the economy goes, but when comparing it to any other nation in the world, I'd much rather be a small business owner here than any where else.

So you're saying that American values are not hype, it's just that America doesn't actually meet them? ...But they're defenately not hype?

The values that Americans embrace are real, and are most definitely not hype. How any rational human being could think otherwise is beyond me. If America did not embrace these ideals then millions of people would not have or continue to immigrate here. Like I said, no one can be perfect, and I'm not saying America is even close to perfect, but it's a hell of alot better than most places in the world, and the people here have a hell of alot more freedom than most people in the world.

[Son of the Suns]

America wasn't the only country to employ democratic prinicpals at that time. Nor were you the first in history to do so, and that hardly validates your uniqueness in the world.

Who else did then? Where are they now? As far as I can tell when the US was created every other nation in the world either was ruled by a monarch of some sort or theocracy.

As far as Iraq goes, I do believe it is an example of America promoting democracy, despite the amount of control that we are currently exerting on the country, which give it's volital status is more than justified, but that is not the point of this discussion.

YES. IT. IS. Ask any muslim in the world about what America is doing in Iraq; do you think 'supporting and encouraging democracy' is going to be anywhere in the top 10?

I've talked to Serbian muslims and Middle Eastern muslims and Asian muslims; and while most of them agree that the US going into Iraq was the best thing for it's people, most of them are either liberal muslims (re: not the foaming at the mouth fundamentalist kind that are telling the world the US is Satan incarnate) or the kind who have been in death camps in their native countries. I guess when the only thing standing between you and genocide is an American B-52, you tend to develop a different view point of America.

Sorry, but I consider the opinion of someone who has actually experienced the whole situation before slightly more valid than that of the followers of rabid fundamentalist muslim clerics who are seeing their power slip away.

As to you being qualified to speak on your feelings of America, you certainly are, but all non Americans do not enjoy the same amount of freedom, and those that do not enjoy it at all have a different view point of America than you do.

Blatant bullshit. Coca-Cola, McDonalds and roads paved with gold would be closer to the truth of what 3rd world nations think of when they think of America.

As I have said before, I didn't pull these opinions out of my ass, they came from friends and aquaintances who have actually experienced not being free. A situation which I think I am safe in saying neither you nor I have personally experienced. So if you want to come here and argue with them about what they think America is, feel free to.

[Coyote]

To be honest, yes, there are indeed Arabs and Muslims in the world who do indeed think that America is here in Iraq to promote democracy. I frequently get to ride with them on the journey to Tikrit and back, a journey we make three times a week. Do not make the ignorant assumption that all Arabs/Muslims hate America or are suspicious of its motives. I even had a discussion in halting half-Arabic/half-English with a blue-collar Shia'a truck driver about the hopes that Israel and Palestine could live peacefully together.

Many people I have spoken to (in fact I once mentioned my former university roommate, Muhannid, who said this to me but he was not the only one) say that they admire and respect the Wilsonian concept of "government by the consent of the governed" and that the image of this encourages them. That the US frequently did not live up to its promises to help people achieve that in no way invalidates the agreeability of that idea.

The US democratic system was not the first democracy, but it has been the one that has endured relatively unchanged since its inception (so long as you are willing to accept the first few years under the Articles of Confederation as the groundwork for the current Federal system). England had a Parliament but through 1776 the King still called the shots. France followed our lead with their own Revolution (or, the beginning of a spate of Revolutions) after seeing what happened in Philadelphia.

Germany was not even united at that time, Russia was in the grips of Czarist aristocracy, in fact most of Europe was still in the form of some form of monarchy-- frequently monarchies with imperial designs on the poor of the world (ie, Spain, Portugal).

America's implementation of freedom, liberty, and democracy has been spotty, and mistakes have been made, and goals have been self-serving. Sometimes values have been sacrificed to serve what seemed to be a greater good (propping up tyrants who were at least willing to oppose Communism, which we viewed as a worse enemy).

But what SOTS is saying is that the IDEA, the CONCEPT: "Freedom and Liberty, actualized through Democratic Government, in which ANY ordinary citizen can participate" is frequently seen as something that America championed since the modern age began (ie, the Industrial age).

The Royal Parliament did not catch on... the election of the kalifa after the death of Mohommed in 633 lasted only four terms... THe GReek concept of Demokratos flourished for awhile and then died out, to be rediscovered later. And while many small tribal organizations around the planet may have operated successfully under democratic organization they obviously did not make any great impact on exporting global democracy.

Again, I agree that America has not lived up to the hype/rhetoric/standards of its own system, and that it is frequently viewed as hypocritical/arrogant/stupid, but despite America's later failings, the initial concept and well-meaning desire to export Wilsonian thought was originally American and continues to be viewed in that context-- again, while acknowledging that it is imperfectly and cynically applied many times in this cynical post-modern age.

[Darth Wong]

But what SOTS is saying is that the IDEA, the CONCEPT: "Freedom and Liberty, actualized through Democratic Government, in which ANY ordinary citizen can participate" is frequently seen as something that America championed since the modern age began (ie, the Industrial age).

Of course, many people do see it that way. But to say that it is broadly accepted that way by most of the world's population (as SOTS does) is simply absurd.

The American Dream is about starting with nothing and ending up filthy stinking rich. All the self-aggrandizing talk about an exclusive ownership or unique association with the words "freedom" and "democracy" is considered by an awful lot of people to be nothing more than jingoism. And the spectacle of Americans arguing with a bunch of non-Americans about how most non-Americans really feel is quite frankly a little absurd. Why aren't most of the non-Americans here substantiating your claims, then? Are we all grossly unrepresentative of non-Americans?

[Dahak]

Americans like SOTS are the reason most non-Americans don't like Americans very much.
Those Germans I know, decidedly non-Americans, are sick of this arrogant, might-makes-right, jingoist attitude. The bigotry, the religiousness, the righteousness.
Another point might also be a certain cultural arrogance on our part, seeing as we have a history going back for at least 1000 years, and don't like to have our own culture belittled by some upstarts from over the pond.

We don't see you as the enlightened shining White Knight bringing the poor heathens your democracy and "free enterprises", even though this seems to be what SOTS believes.

Mind you, I have many American friends, who are far from this world view. But those who do are all the more outspoken and public, which is a sad thing. You should definitely work on your public relations.

[Col. Crackpot]

Americans like SOTS are the reason most non-Americans don't like Americans very much.
Those Germans I know, decidedly non-Americans, are sick of this arrogant, might-makes-right, jingoist attitude. The bigotry, the religiousness, the righteousness.
Another point might also be a certain cultural arrogance on our part, seeing as we have a history going back for at least 1000 years, and don't like to have our own culture belittled by some upstarts from over the pond.

We don't see you as the enlightened shining White Knight bringing the poor heathens your democracy and "free enterprises", even though this seems to be what SOTS believes.

Mind you, I have many American friends, who are far from this world view. But those who do are all the more outspoken and public, which is a sad thing. You should definitely work on your public relations.

then there is the issue that most Americans really don't give a flying fuck what the rest of the world thinks.

[Son of the Suns]

Of course, many people do see it that way. But to say that it is broadly accepted that way by most of the world's population (as SOTS does) is simply absurd.

I didn't say most of the world's population does, and I'd like you to point out where you think I said so. What I have been saying is that much of the world that lives in a state of oppression does see America in this way.

The American Dream is about starting with nothing and ending up filthy stinking rich.

That might be what you think it is, but that is not what many people who do not live in free societies think of the American dream. To them it's living where the local crackpot dictator doesn't have his boot on their collective throats because of the freedoms that the people here enjoy.

All the self-aggrandizing talk about an exclusive ownership or unique association with the words "freedom" and "democracy" is considered by an awful lot of people to be nothing more than jingoism.

An awful lot does not constitute the majority of the world.

And the spectacle of Americans arguing with a bunch of non-Americans about how most non-Americans really feel is quite frankly a little absurd. Why aren't most of the non-Americans here substantiating your claims, then? Are we all grossly unrepresentative of non-Americans?

So the opinions of the Western Europeans, Canadians, and Austrailians that are here are representative of the opinions of the peoples of Asia, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Africa, South America, and Central America? I think not, and as I have been pointing out it is probably because the peoples of these regions live under different conditions than those that are represented here on this board.

I think that the people here do probably represent the opinions of their native countries quite well, but to say that just because they are non Americans that they represent the opinions of the several billion people who live in completely different cultures and under a completely different system of government than they do is not only contradictory to fact but also truely is arrogance.

[Son of the Suns]

*snip whiny bullshit*

We don't see you as the enlightened shining White Knight bringing the poor heathens your democracy and "free enterprises", even though this seems to be what SOTS believes.

*snip more whiny bullshit*

Once again you've missed the point. I don't care what Germans think of America, or how you percieve us. What I have been pointing out is that just because you think so does not mean that the people that live in Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America think so to, and judging by the attitude of the droves of people that continue to immigrate to this country, their opinions are quite the opposite.

[Son of the Suns]

-snip-

Sounds like your experiences are much like mine. Sadly for the Islamic world muslums who are not killing themselves with homemade bombs and burning American flags do not constitute news worthy material, so the rabid idiots that are so desparately trying to hang onto their little theocracies are receiving all the attention and thus have become the only face that much of the western world sees when they think of a muslum.

[AniThyng]

desperately poor people in third world countries beset by tyranical crackpots don't really desire freedom so much as they desire a better standard of living....if somehow this tyrant managed to sustain a comfortable middle class, a lot of this fawning for american freedom and democracy tends to dissipate except amoung..er...intellectual elites who think they know better then the common folk, and who happen to agree with SOTS. the yearning for american GOODS is still there, the desire to move to a more politally free enviroment may still exist, but it will be tempered by the fact that the ideal no can be seen for what it really is - an ideal whose price is not necessarilly worth it, certainly not worth american government meddling or political philosophy.

the fact that there are people from well off western countries and middle class asians like myself who do not at all agree on this view of what america means to the rest of the world ought to show that it can;'t be tacken for granted that most people in the third world really see america as a glorious bastion of freedom and democracy, as oppossed to a place that entertainment and material goods come from, and where one can aspire to be filthy rich.

tell me, are all those mexican immigrants going to america because they want freedom, or because they want a job?

[Crown]

Who else did then? Where are they now? As far as I can tell when the US was created every other nation in the world either was ruled by a monarch of some sort or theocracy.

The French for one (yes they had a little fuck up with Napoleon). The British did have Parliament at that stage (which is still there) for second.

I've talked to Serbian muslims and Middle Eastern muslims and Asian muslims; and while most of them agree that the US going into Iraq was the best thing for it's people, most of them are either liberal muslims (re: not the foaming at the mouth fundamentalist kind that are telling the world the US is Satan incarnate) or the kind who have been in death camps in their native countries. I guess when the only thing standing between you and genocide is an American B-52, you tend to develop a different view point of America.

Sorry, but I consider the opinion of someone who has actually experienced the whole situation before slightly more valid than that of the followers of rabid fundamentalist muslim clerics who are seeing their power slip away.

Love the way you employ an Ad Homeim to brush away any opposing view point as 'rabid fundamentalists' there. I also love the way that the minority (the situations you described aren't under the conditions in which the majority have been granted an oportunity to view American foreign policy as) and the view point they form, is a somehow now the majorities view on America.

As I have said before, I didn't pull these opinions out of my ass, they came from friends and aquaintances who have actually experienced not being free. A situation which I think I am safe in saying neither you nor I have personally experienced. So if you want to come here and argue with them about what they think America is, feel free to.

Just keep building that wall there David. One. Brick. At. A. Time.

Where do you get off? What makes you think you have such an outstanding knowledge and understanding of who I am, and what I know? Would it behoove you to know that I am an imigrant to Australia? That the country that I was born in, my parents lived through a CIA backed military Junta which toppeled the democratically elected government and froze all freedom within the country for 7 years until they were ousted by the people? Do you think it might also be valid to mention that Australia isn't a mono-ethnic country, and that I too have spoken to people who have experienced persecution in their own countries and have come over as refugees? And that their view of America is also *slightly* more different than the one you seem convinced as being correct?

NO. Because as nice anecdotes as those make, they don't matter two shits in a debate where you are required to prove your position.

[Frank Hipper]

Crown, the French Revolution happened after the American, and was influenced in no small part by it.

[Crown]

Crown, the French Revolution happened after the American, and was influenced in no small part by it.

You're right, I got the dates mixed up (by six years no less).

[TheDarkling]

Crown, the French Revolution happened after the American, and was influenced in no small part by it.

Indeed, getting bankrupted saving the US greatly accelerated the revolution.

[Stormbringer]

Crown, the French Revolution happened after the American, and was influenced in no small part by it.

Indeed, getting bankrupted saving the US greatly accelerated the revolution.

You make it sound like they did it out alturism. It most certainly wasn't.

[Frank Hipper]

Crown, the French Revolution happened after the American, and was influenced in no small part by it.

Indeed, getting bankrupted saving the US greatly accelerated the revolution.

Obscenely corrupt Louisiana land scandals played huge role in the revolution. The mass collapse of French banking is more directly related to them.

[TheDarkling]

You make it sound like they did it out alturism. It most certainly wasn't.

No it was just to get one over on us; motives are rarely unselfish especially for nations.
Although I have noticed people from a certain nation (that shall remained unnamed) often try to demonstrate their beneficence by informing people of their past involvement in certain wars.

[Crown]

You make it sound like they did it out alturism. It most certainly wasn't.

No it was just to get one over on us; motives are rarely unselfish especially for nations.
Although I have noticed people from a certain nation (that shall remained unnamed) often try to demonstrate their beneficence by informing people of their past involvement in certain wars.

I was going to say the exact same thing, although a hell of a lot more obvious than that.