Borg Space invades the Empire

[jegs2]

Interesting debate going on at SB.COM, for those who post there. Look to this thread for more information. Among interesting gleanings is this from a newbie:

Man, it's always interesting how peopel just brush off trek tech when it's up against wars tech. Heh, I just spent a couple days reading over stardestroyer.net (obviously full of rabid wars fans), and just became disgusted at the total bias of the whole thing.

Now for the record, I've never watched a lick of star wars in my life, and don't ever plan to. Any and all info I have on it is gathered by what I've learned from fans of the series (mostly BB's, where they do comparisons like this, so I have a fairly good grasp on the upper limits of the technology). I'm a pure trek fan through and through.

Now onto the topic at hand, yes, as it's just been stated, Borg transwarp is considerably faster than anything displayed on star wars, so in this field, advantage borg. Now before there's a debate about how much slower borg transwarp coils are than the hub, remember the original statements that began this thread... the ENTIRETY of borg space is moved into the star wars galaxy... and that means the hubs too, so star wars gets owned in the speed department.

As far as weaponry is concerned, it's a common thing for star wars fans to state that since the star wars ships use plasma based weaponry, Borg shields could not adapt (since in many instances, borg adapt to frequencies). In the episode Dark Frontier (part 2), they "triaxilated their sheild geometry to absorb their phaser pulses"... leading the obvious conclusion that simply adapting to frequencies is not the only way the Borg have to defend themselves. Of course, the next argument is that the Borg ships simply couldn't stand upto the sheer amount of raw power the star wars ships would unleash upon them. Unfortunately, I can't think of any examples when the Borg were subject to such an amount of power (assuming that star wars peoples calculations are correct), so that's hard to guage. The best example I can think of is in Firsts Contact. A single Borg cube is headed towards Earth. Now remember, this is a period of time when the Federation is at war with the Dominion, and there're massive fleets all over the place, and at least 1 within distance of Earth (the 3rd fleet, I believe). We know the battle started in the Typhon sector, and it was a running battle all the way to Earth. Of course we never see the FULL Starfleet Armada onscreen, only the bits and pieces that were left over when they finally got to Earth. Some have speculated that for the Enterprise to get from the Neutral Zone to Earth would take at LEAST 1 day, so that would mean that ONE Borg cube took a monsterous pounding from a massive fleet for a full day, and was still able to kick ass. If not for Picards ability to find that weak spot, chances are, the entire fleet would've been decimated. Now, to add to this point, for those who state that since the full armada wasn't on screen, it doesn't count, here's another point that backs up the thought that the original armada was huge. In Insurrection, Picard mentions that in lieu of recent losses to the Dominion and The Borg, the Federation needed all the support they could get. Now, for Picard to put the Borg in with the Dominion in that statement, Starfleet would have HAD to have lost quite a lot of ships for it to have any significance. If all Starfleet had lost were the ships we saw, then it would be a miniscule fraction compared to the losses in the Dominion war.

SO, here we have a single cube, which took one HELL of a pounding for a long period of time, yet was able to nearly take out an entire fleet of starfleet ships... Now, obviously it's hard to guess, but that alone should tell us that Borg ships are BLOODY powerful when it comes to shields and durability. And if it is at all possible for the Borg to adapt to star wars weapons, then I doubt they would have NEARLY as devestating an effect upon the borg ships as some people believe. Of course, that's all speculation, and there's absolutely no way to prove one way or another.

Now, onto size. I'm going by memory here, but let me try to break this down. In Scorpion Part 1, Janeway states that they don't know how many borg vessles are out there, but their space covers thousands of solar systems... while it's not a definate number, it gives us a fair idea of what they're all about. Not to mention, when Kes throws Voyager away from Borg space, she tosses them 10,000 lightyears, which Janeways immediately says is beyond borg space. Of course, we also know that they continue to run into Borg from that point on, so maybe they're not ENTIRELY out of Borg space. So we can guess that Borg space, at least in that one direction, is maybe approx 10,000 lightyears - not a bad amount at all... plus they have a presence in other quadrants, galactic planes, and possibly dimensions (unless fluidic space is their first). Not too bad at all, I'd say. Now onto the size of fleets. I have absolutely no clue how many ships are available in the star wars galaxy, but from what I gather, it's in the area of millions (feel free to comment!). Now as I stated above, Janeway didn't have a clue how many ships they were, but in a later episode (and I am trying very hard to remember which one), she states that they would be facing millions of vessles. Now, I've seen this reference used elsewhere as well, so I don't think i was dreaming it up. Now obviously not all of those "millions" will be cubes or spheres, the borg have many different types of ships. But with those numbers, I think the Borg should be able to put up one hell of a fight with the star wars galaxy. And of course, there's another advantage the Borg have... they assimilate. While the star wars option is to destroy all enemy ships, the Borg will be moving upon entire worlds and assimilating them... growing stronger while at the same time, the opponent grows weaker. Whatever technological advantage the Star Wars group has can easily be evened out by the Borg assimilating as much as possible, and adapting or even integrating what information/technology they come across. We know that the Collective is MASSIVE... hell, in the Primary Unicomplex alone, Tuvok read "trillions" of lifesigns when they were on the mission to rescue 7 of 9. Factor in all the worlds, and vessels the collective has, then that's possibly many many trillions of individuals.

The next point I wish to bring up, which I see a lot of is size of ships. Everyone seems to believe that the larger Star Wars ships would have no problem at all ramming their way through Borg cubes. While I don't doubt this, I think people are just going by the length of the ships, and not taking a look at everything... If you look at the -10x view on this page, http://www.merzo.net/ you will notice that the Super Star Destroyer (12.8 KM) while quite long, is fairly short. Now drag the Borg cube from the bottom up to it, and it doesn't look quite so small anymore, does it? Now I also am aware that some people believe the ship is actually approx 17 or so KM, but I'm not sure which is which, but even at 17 KM, while the difference is much greater, you can still get my drift. I'd say in overall voume, a Borg Cube is maybe 1/3 - 1/2 of this SSD (hey, math is definately my weak point... if these numbers are out there, post 'em please!). So if one of these babies is gonna ram a cube, then chances are, it's gonna get mashed up too Not to mention, we've seen cubes that've been ripped apart, yet continue to function, how many times has that happened in star wars?

The last point I can think of is that the star wars people will claim the Death Star would bitchslap the borg and reduce them to scrap. Well, this is where things get a little harder. If you're still on that site I posted, goto -100x, and you'll see the Death Star II. Compare the Spacedock model to it (it's a bit larger than a Borg cube), and you'll get a general sense of the size difference we're dealing with here. Frankly, I don't know if the Borg could take it on just like that, with their own technology, but once they assimilate weapons knowledge of the star wars galaxy, not to mention shield technology, it should be much easier for them to take on a mammoth like this.

Now of course, I'm new to the whole debating scene, so feel free to correct whatever I've said, and comment upon it. From where I stand, the Borg would have the speed advantage, and the ability to easily integrate the opponents technology into their knowledge. If I just posted a lot of lines of crap, please say so, if I made any sense whatsoever, say so as well



One final thing I wanted to post... not totally related, but I might as well tack it on here. For months, I've been reading about people questioning the power of Species 8472's weaponry because it hit Voyager, yet was unable to destroy it. Well, for anyone who's got the ep handy (Scorpion Pt. 1), listen to what Paris says before the bioship attacks. Here's a quote. "Captain. The bioship is powering up - like it's charging some kind of weapon". Ok now, so the bioship, which WAS damaged in the battle with the Borg, goes from cold to powering up, and at the same time, Voyager is hightailing it out of there. I think it's more than safe to assume that the pilot knew Voyager was running away, and decided to take a shot, weather his weapons were fully powered or not. Why people all assume the ship was at full power is beyond me. When this all happened, the 8472 pilot had just gotten back to his ship, and begun powering up... it's kinda dumb to assume that as soon as he gets in his ship, it's all 100% power right away. So is it safe to say we can bury that little argument once and for all?

Thoughts or comments?

[Crayz9000]

12.8 km Executor? Oh, not that again... somebody needs to fucking watch the Star Wars movies again...

[Darth Wong]

Man, it's always interesting how peopel just brush off trek tech when it's up against wars tech. Heh, I just spent a couple days reading over stardestroyer.net (obviously full of rabid wars fans), and just became disgusted at the total bias of the whole thing.

Now for the record, I've never watched a lick of star wars in my life, and don't ever plan to. Any and all info I have on it is gathered by what I've learned from fans of the series (mostly BB's, where they do comparisons like this, so I have a fairly good grasp on the upper limits of the technology). I'm a pure trek fan through and through.

Ah yes, start by accusing your opponents of bias and then admit that you have no first-hand knowledge whatsoever of one combatant's abilities. You can't buy this kind of newbie stupidity.

Now onto the topic at hand, yes, as it's just been stated, Borg transwarp is considerably faster than anything displayed on star wars, so in this field, advantage borg. Now before there's a debate about how much slower borg transwarp coils are than the hub, remember the original statements that began this thread... the ENTIRETY of borg space is moved into the star wars galaxy... and that means the hubs too, so star wars gets owned in the speed department.

I like the way he ignores the weaknesses of conduits:

1. The hubs can be easily destroyed by Imperial vessels.
2. The conduits themselves can be easily damaged or destroyed by M/AM explosions, with the extra bonus that any ship travelling through a damaged conduit is also destroyed.
3. The statistical odds of the conduit network just happening to have an outlet in the right place (given that conduits must be laid, hence the first Borg cube coming to Earth took much longer than subsequent ones) for an attack on any given target is small, and the cube would have to travel at relatively slow regular transwarp from the conduit outlet to the target site.

Not much to worry about.

As far as weaponry is concerned, it's a common thing for star wars fans to state that since the star wars ships use plasma based weaponry, Borg shields could not adapt (since in many instances, borg adapt to frequencies). In the episode Dark Frontier (part 2), they "triaxilated their sheild geometry to absorb their phaser pulses"... leading the obvious conclusion that simply adapting to frequencies is not the only way the Borg have to defend themselves.

Roman centurions knew how to realign their shield geometry to block an attack too. I wouldn't use it as proof of defense against all types of weapons, though.

Of course, the next argument is that the Borg ships simply couldn't stand upto the sheer amount of raw power the star wars ships would unleash upon them. Unfortunately, I can't think of any examples when the Borg were subject to such an amount of power (assuming that star wars peoples calculations are correct), so that's hard to guage.

Kinetic impact from an S-8472 ship in "Scorpion". Planetary debris from an exploding planet in "Scorpion". Plasma discharge from solar photosphere in "Descent". Sorry, the but newbie loses yet again.

The best example I can think of is in Firsts Contact. A single Borg cube is headed towards Earth. Now remember, this is a period of time when the Federation is at war with the Dominion, and there're massive fleets all over the place, and at least 1 within distance of Earth (the 3rd fleet, I believe). We know the battle started in the Typhon sector, and it was a running battle all the way to Earth. Of course we never see the FULL Starfleet Armada onscreen, only the bits and pieces that were left over when they finally got to Earth. Some have speculated that for the Enterprise to get from the Neutral Zone to Earth would take at LEAST 1 day, so that would mean that ONE Borg cube took a monsterous pounding from a massive fleet for a full day, and was still able to kick ass. If not for Picards ability to find that weak spot, chances are, the entire fleet would've been decimated. Now, to add to this point, for those who state that since the full armada wasn't on screen, it doesn't count, here's another point that backs up the thought that the original armada was huge. In Insurrection, Picard mentions that in lieu of recent losses to the Dominion and The Borg, the Federation needed all the support they could get. Now, for Picard to put the Borg in with the Dominion in that statement, Starfleet would have HAD to have lost quite a lot of ships for it to have any significance. If all Starfleet had lost were the ships we saw, then it would be a miniscule fraction compared to the losses in the Dominion war.

An awful lot of ifs, maybes, we can assmes, etc. based solely on semantics and possibilities. Not a shred of direct evidence for this massive battle or massive fleet. Also not a shred of evidence to negate the claim that brute force can overwhelm a cube, since a very long battle would not be an example of such brute force (hint: in a long battle, the Borg ship's shield and hull regeneration abilities would have far more time to work, whereas a single titanic blast would not afford them such opportunity).

SO, here we have a single cube, which took one HELL of a pounding for a long period of time

I do like the way he goes from speculation based on possibilities to accepting said speculation as a fact and using it to prove something else.

yet was able to nearly take out an entire fleet of starfleet ships... Now, obviously it's hard to guess, but that alone should tell us that Borg ships are BLOODY powerful when it comes to shields and durability.

Relative to what? Relative to ships whose entire arsenal is not equal to a single blast from an ISD's big guns?

And if it is at all possible for the Borg to adapt to star wars weapons, then I doubt they would have NEARLY as devestating an effect upon the borg ships as some people believe. Of course, that's all speculation, and there's absolutely no way to prove one way or another.

Wrong; see "Descent" and "Scorpion", both of which clearly showed cubes being hit by natural impactors such as planetary debris and solar plasma and easily destroyed by the raw energy.

Now, onto size. I'm going by memory here, but let me try to break this down. In Scorpion Part 1, Janeway states that they don't know how many borg vessles are out there, but their space covers thousands of solar systems... while it's not a definate number, it gives us a fair idea of what they're all about. Not to mention, when Kes throws Voyager away from Borg space, she tosses them 10,000 lightyears, which Janeways immediately says is beyond borg space. Of course, we also know that they continue to run into Borg from that point on, so maybe they're not ENTIRELY out of Borg space. So we can guess that Borg space, at least in that one direction, is maybe approx 10,000 lightyears - not a bad amount at all... plus they have a presence in other quadrants, galactic planes, and possibly dimensions (unless fluidic space is their first). Not too bad at all, I'd say. Now onto the size of fleets. I have absolutely no clue how many ships are available in the star wars galaxy, but from what I gather, it's in the area of millions (feel free to comment!). Now as I stated above, Janeway didn't have a clue how many ships they were, but in a later episode (and I am trying very hard to remember which one), she states that they would be facing millions of vessles. Now, I've seen this reference used elsewhere as well, so I don't think i was dreaming it up. Now obviously not all of those "millions" will be cubes or spheres, the borg have many different types of ships.

So a line of speculation from a Federation officer who has no way of actually knowing how many ships are actually out there is now evidence? Especially when it implies thousands of ships per planet, when we saw no such thing in the episode?

But with those numbers, I think the Borg should be able to put up one hell of a fight with the star wars galaxy. And of course, there's another advantage the Borg have... they assimilate. While the star wars option is to destroy all enemy ships, the Borg will be moving upon entire worlds and assimilating them... growing stronger while at the same time, the opponent grows weaker. Whatever technological advantage the Star Wars group has can easily be evened out by the Borg assimilating as much as possible, and adapting or even integrating what information/technology they come across.

And we know they can accomplish this despite a single fighter being able to take out a Borg cube with a large warhead and SW planetary shields being able to laugh off their attacks until reinforcements show up because ...? How many times must this "Borg can assimilate" anything bullshit be repeated before it grows old? They couldn't even assimilate Data, or extract the information from his head without his consent. So the Queen had to whore herself to him because he hadn't gotten laid since Tasha Yar.

We know that the Collective is MASSIVE... hell, in the Primary Unicomplex alone, Tuvok read "trillions" of lifesigns when they were on the mission to rescue 7 of 9. Factor in all the worlds, and vessels the collective has, then that's possibly many many trillions of individuals.

Sort of like Coruscant, but without the planetary shields and vastly more powerful warships.

The next point I wish to bring up, which I see a lot of is size of ships. Everyone seems to believe that the larger Star Wars ships would have no problem at all ramming their way through Borg cubes. While I don't doubt this, I think people are just going by the length of the ships, and not taking a look at everything... If you look at the -10x view on this page, http://www.merzo.net/ you will notice that the Super Star Destroyer (12.8 KM) while quite long, is fairly short. Now drag the Borg cube from the bottom up to it, and it doesn't look quite so small anymore, does it? Now I also am aware that some people believe the ship is actually approx 17 or so KM, but I'm not sure which is which, but even at 17 KM, while the difference is much greater, you can still get my drift. I'd say in overall voume, a Borg Cube is maybe 1/3 - 1/2 of this SSD (hey, math is definately my weak point... if these numbers are out there, post 'em please!). So if one of these babies is gonna ram a cube, then chances are, it's gonna get mashed up too Not to mention, we've seen cubes that've been ripped apart, yet continue to function, how many times has that happened in star wars?

I like the way he assumes a cube is solid, even though we've seen in "Scorpion" that it's largely hollow. Looks impressive on the outside, but it's mostly for show.

he last point I can think of is that the star wars people will claim the Death Star would bitchslap the borg and reduce them to scrap. Well, this is where things get a little harder. If you're still on that site I posted, goto -100x, and you'll see the Death Star II. Compare the Spacedock model to it (it's a bit larger than a Borg cube), and you'll get a general sense of the size difference we're dealing with here. Frankly, I don't know if the Borg could take it on just like that, with their own technology, but once they assimilate weapons knowledge of the star wars galaxy, not to mention shield technology, it should be much easier for them to take on a mammoth like this.

The "Borg can assimilate anything" nonsense again ...

Now of course, I'm new to the whole debating scene, so feel free to correct whatever I've said, and comment upon it. From where I stand, the Borg would have the speed advantage, and the ability to easily integrate the opponents technology into their knowledge. If I just posted a lot of lines of crap, please say so, if I made any sense whatsoever, say so as well

It would be interesting to see if he's actually capable of accepting correction as he implies, rather than saying this as meaningless boilerplate.

One final thing I wanted to post... not totally related, but I might as well tack it on here. For months, I've been reading about people questioning the power of Species 8472's weaponry because it hit Voyager, yet was unable to destroy it. Well, for anyone who's got the ep handy (Scorpion Pt. 1), listen to what Paris says before the bioship attacks. Here's a quote. "Captain. The bioship is powering up - like it's charging some kind of weapon". Ok now, so the bioship, which WAS damaged in the battle with the Borg, goes from cold to powering up, and at the same time, Voyager is hightailing it out of there. I think it's more than safe to assume that the pilot knew Voyager was running away, and decided to take a shot, weather his weapons were fully powered or not. Why people all assume the ship was at full power is beyond me. When this all happened, the 8472 pilot had just gotten back to his ship, and begun powering up... it's kinda dumb to assume that as soon as he gets in his ship, it's all 100% power right away. So is it safe to say we can bury that little argument once and for all?

That's actually an interesting idea (the first one he's come up with so far), and not unreasonable. But there are other reasons to question the combat capabilities of S8472 ships. The fact that they obviously have zero particle shields (hence the ability of spacborne nanoprobes to enter their ships' flesh and assimilate it) is not a small vulnerability. And their weapons did not destroy the Borg cubes in the beginning of "Scorpion" any faster than planetary debris or solar plasma did (slower, actually).

Thoughts or comments?

Out of that entire voluminous post, he has one interesting idea, and it's hardly enough to tip the scales.

[Crayz9000]

Oh, yeah. Pretty much every claim he makes has already been dealt with; in fact, a lot of those claims were brought up in the various DarkStar messes.

This is boring, uninspired tripe.

[SWPIGWANG]

It is a n00b, so what?

Most people don't know all the stuff that has been dug up over the years, and certainly not for someone who doesn't even watch SW.....

The human mind is usually quite conservative when it comes down to the unknown. The human mind usually think in linear, not exponential terms. People without additional information would usually put match between difference sci and real universes in linear terms, and anything over 100 times in either power or number quickly degenerates to vagueness as the difficulty of comprehending that scale.

People would think about having 50 GCS take on the death star II, not 1x10^12 GCS and when one is a n00b, this natural response leads to errors.

[wautd]

comments?

Now for the record, I've never watched a lick of star wars in my life

This should say enough already

[wautd]

If someone has an acount at SB.com, ask him, if the Borg are so strong, why is it than that the Borg didnt conquered alpha quadrant by now? Acute stupidity?

[RevWaldo]

Possible reply might be

BORG feel no urgency to conquer all of the Galaxy

Borg expanding into other dimensions
Borg being destoryed left and right by Voyager and Species 2407
Borg doesn't want all of Galaxy

[Darth Wong]

Possible reply might be

BORG feel no urgency to conquer all of the Galaxy

Borg expanding into other dimensions
Borg being destoryed left and right by Voyager and Species 2407
Borg doesn't want all of Galaxy

Ah yes, the Borg has no interest in Earth or humans, right? Despite numerous separate attacks and the Queen's lesbian fascination with 7 of 9?

[Tribun]

I think we should try to lure him over here. Just to have fun laughing at him.

[Stofsk]

Possible reply might be

BORG feel no urgency to conquer all of the Galaxy

Directly contradicted thanks to canon episodes. The Borg swept through the El-Aurian system which provided no capable resistance. Only a handful survived.

There's also the fact the Borg have tried repeatedly to conquer the Federation but fail dismally each time. They (apparently) tried conquering local regional powers in the Delta Quadrant, and fail dismally.

Borg expanding into other dimensions

Like what? 2D space? What the hell does this mean? And why the hell would they go to such trouble?

Expanding into other 'dimensions' doesn't make sense. They're going to assimilate paper now?

Borg being destoryed left and right by Voyager and Species 2407

So they don't want to fight because they're chickenshits. Can't say I'm surprised.

Borg doesn't want all of Galaxy

No, they only want your technology. That drives them far more than territoriality. What they want is your 'technological distinctiveness' to add to their own. Someone who wants territory in a fucking GALAXY can have all the territory he could WANT, and then some. The Borg don't need to run the entire Galaxy, that was never their stated goals. What they want is what you've got.

Essentially there's no excuse for the Borg from what we see of them in the canon shows. The fact B&B fucked up the continuity is just another point against the Borg (I'm talking about First Contact, which if you can't understand why it screwed up the Borg then frankly you need to open your eyes and watch the film again).

[Lord Revan]

12.8 km Executor? Oh, not that again... somebody needs to fucking watch the Star Wars movies again...

at least that size comes from starwars.com

[Trekdestroyer]

if only this guy had the guts to e-mail this to Mike or in some way put it in public view

[Soontir C'boath]

if only this guy had the guts to e-mail this to Mike or in some way put it in public view

WTF are you talking about? This was posted in public view.

[jegs2]

If someone has an acount at SB.com, ask him, if the Borg are so strong, why is it than that the Borg didnt conquered alpha quadrant by now? Acute stupidity?

That's a good one. Think I'll use it.

[Trekdestroyer]

if only this guy had the guts to e-mail this to Mike or in some way put it in public view

WTF are you talking about? This was posted in public view.

I meant to say that the guy should go and either sign up here or make a website with his arguments.

[Haze Gray]

He doesn't want to sign up here because he is afraid of us "rabid warsies."



And he probably is a youngster and thus does not have the time or monetary commitments to put into making a website.

[wautd]

If someone has an acount at SB.com, ask him, if the Borg are so strong, why is it than that the Borg didnt conquered alpha quadrant by now? Acute stupidity?

That's a good one. Think I'll use it.

thanks for asking
Meanwhile ive signed up myself but still waiting for posting rights

got another question for him, cant wait to ask

[Ted C]

Is this an old thread on SB. Something about that whole argument sound familiar, like it's a big copy/paste job.

[wautd]

Interesting debate going on at SB.COM, for those who post there. Look to this thread for more information. Among interesting gleanings is this from a newbie:

*snip*

Thoughts or comments?

To counter in his own language:

"First of all i know never seen star trek and the only stuff i know is from some guys. I am a big fan of Babylon 5 however and i find it so damn cool i'm pretty sure they beat the crap out of ST.

I mean, look at the firepower. At one episode a Centauri battlecruiser cut a Narn cruiser practically in half. I want to see ST beat this.

Ok, Bab5 doesnt have shields but their ships are huge! I mean look at the size of a omega destroyer compared to the enterprise. Obvously it contains more power.

Sounds stupid doesnt it? Well at least I wasn't serious"

[wautd]

ough bould text gone wrong. Only "never" supposed to be bold

[The Third Man]

Possible reply might be

BORG feel no urgency to conquer all of the Galaxy

Borg expanding into other dimensions
Borg being destoryed left and right by Voyager and Species 2407
Borg doesn't want all of Galaxy

If you won't accept a stupid Borg collective and are looking for reasons for the general ineptness of their moves against Earth, how about the idea that they are "playing games" - by making regular but feeble attacks and messing about creating creepy Borg queens, their plan is to provoke Earth and SF into developing new technologies faster than they otherwise would. Once there is sufficient interesting tech, the Borg arrive in full force and bag it; more beneficial to them than just grabbing a few billion extra drones. The Borg threat has been cited as the motivator behind things such as quantum torps and the Defiant, so maybe the plan is working Presumably they would apply this technique to other species that they determine to be sufficiently inventive, it's sensible to actively farm technological assimilation-fodder than just grab it as and when it's encountered.

[apocolypse]

Gods that was an ugly thread, unfortuately I let myself get sucked in it and spent most of the work day on SB. I'm so fired....

But seriously, it's just the same argument over and over and over. And most everything has been shot down so many times, I don't get why people still keep believing the stuff?

[Techno_Union]

Gods that was an ugly thread, unfortuately I let myself get sucked in it and spent most of the work day on SB. I'm so fired....

But seriously, it's just the same argument over and over and over. And most everything has been shot down so many times, I don't get why people still keep believing the stuff?

I wholeheartdly agree, especially this dipshit names Bryan. He has made me mad, and of course he brings up the "gay ass" wanking things which ticked me off, is it not easy to not use the phrase "gay ass?" I am not really all that touchy about it but sometimes its just annoying when you here it so much, whew, glad I got that out, thanks for listening.

[RevWaldo]

If you won't accept a stupid Borg collective and are looking for reasons for the general ineptness of their moves against Earth, how about the idea that they are "playing games" - by making regular but feeble attacks and messing about creating creepy Borg queens, their plan is to provoke Earth and SF into developing new technologies faster than they otherwise would. Once there is sufficient interesting tech, the Borg arrive in full force and bag it; more beneficial to them than just grabbing a few billion extra drones. The Borg threat has been cited as the motivator behind things such as quantum torps and the Defiant, so maybe the plan is working Presumably they would apply this technique to other species that they determine to be sufficiently inventive, it's sensible to actively farm technological assimilation-fodder than just grab it as and when it's encountered.

Then unless anyone else can think of possible replies the guy might make to "if the Borg are so strong, why is it than that the Borg didn't conquer alpha quadrant by now?" then I'd say this guy will have no rebutal we can't negate.

I'd like to chime in and add " or the Beta Quadrant, or the Delta Quadrant." (did we ever see them in the Gamma Quadrant?)

Above I had written The Borg might be too busy trying to conquer other dimensions. That was in reference to Two dimensional objects, but to the Borg's attempt to conquer the fluidic space of Species 2407 (am I getting that number right? not that it matters; I'm sure most of us know what I am talking about.) I should not have used Dimension, but I wanted to leave the possiblity open to the idea that the Borg have gone to other places similar to the fluidic space. (Yes I know despite the fact we have never seen it in Canon. What do you want? I was trying to predict stupid answers. )