What would a lightsaber do to a changeling?

[Metrion Cascade]

Ok, so most people think a lightsaber would be of little use to actually kill a changeling given the nature of the weapon.

I take it the general consensus is that force lightging would definately roast a founder correct?

No. It's not even enough energy to give a humanoid third degree burns. Maybe if there's an example of some Jedi generating enough energy via Force lightning to roast or vape a humanoid, I'd concede that it should do some damage (although chances are it takes hundreds of times the energy of a humanoid-NDFing phaser blast to explode a Founder).

[Metrion Cascade]

Well, considering the Changeling could BE the door, yes. And the Changeling wouldn't have to be conventionally 'tough' - simply apply the energy to mimicking hotter metal. Melting and glowing isn't 'destruction' for a changeling.

Any numbers on how powerful Klingon disruptors are?

Please provide evidence that being heated to incandescence is not harmful for a Founder.

Prove that it constitutes injury to a being that isn't even completely matter all the time. Laas was able to handle enough energy to go to warp (and most warp drives use plasma to move their power). And phasers that couldn't kill Founders have been shown heating metals to incandescence and melting them.

[Darth Wong]

Please provide evidence that being heated to incandescence is not harmful for a Founder.

Prove that it constitutes injury to a being that isn't even completely matter all the time.

Odo killed a Founder by pushing him against the outside of a warp core containment structure and letting the low-level ambient radiation (which was obviously not intense enough to damage the structure itself) heat him up until he died. I await your concession.

Also, he was able to hold his own in combat against this Founder, despite your Founder-wanking claims about him being orders of magnitude lesser than normal Founders. It's pretty obvious that this warp-capable SuperFounder was the freak exception rather than the norm as you are so dishonestly assuming.

[Metrion Cascade]

Please provide evidence that being heated to incandescence is not harmful for a Founder.

Prove that it constitutes injury to a being that isn't even completely matter all the time.

Odo killed a Founder by pushing him against the outside of a warp core containment structure and letting the low-level ambient radiation (which was obviously not intense enough to damage the structure itself) heat him up until he died. I await your concession.

That Founder was killed by a visible forcefield, not being held against radioactive metal. And the flux of whatever radiation (IIRC gamma is what you'd get from M/AM reactions) you propose killed the Founder couldn't have decreased so rapidly with its distance from the case as to not kill Odo too.

Also, he was able to hold his own in combat against this Founder, despite your Founder-wanking claims about him being orders of magnitude lesser than normal Founders. It's pretty obvious that this warp-capable SuperFounder was the freak exception rather than the norm as you are so dishonestly assuming.

This Founder was intent on not killing Odo, and didn't even try an energy weapon. And no amount of skill should give Laas such drastically different abilities than other Founders. It would be like a really great airplane pilot getting so good that he sprouts wings from his back.

[Darth Wong]

That Founder was killed by a visible forcefield, not being held against radioactive metal. And the flux of whatever radiation (IIRC gamma is what you'd get from M/AM reactions) you propose killed the Founder couldn't have decreased so rapidly with its distance from the case as to not kill Odo too.

So you figure the safety forcefield around the warp core is designed to kill on contact?

Also, he was able to hold his own in combat against this Founder, despite your Founder-wanking claims about him being orders of magnitude lesser than normal Founders. It's pretty obvious that this warp-capable SuperFounder was the freak exception rather than the norm as you are so dishonestly assuming.

This Founder was intent on not killing Odo, and didn't even try an energy weapon. And no amount of skill should give Laas such drastically different abilities than other Founders. It would be like a really great airplane pilot getting so good that he sprouts wings from his back.

Oh right, so the other Founders never demonstrated these abilities because they were "holding back", right? Why couldn't he just be a freak? Wesley Crusher can bend fucking spacetime, but I don't see people running around saying that all Star Trek humans can do this.

[Metrion Cascade]

That Founder was killed by a visible forcefield, not being held against radioactive metal. And the flux of whatever radiation (IIRC gamma is what you'd get from M/AM reactions) you propose killed the Founder couldn't have decreased so rapidly with its distance from the case as to not kill Odo too.

So you figure the safety forcefield around the warp core is designed to kill on contact?

It's a Federation ship. Are you saying it's not?

Actually I'd never seen that forcefield before. And no, Feds don't seem to be able to make safe ones. And the point about the radiation stands. Regardless of whether you think the forcefield killed the changeling. It didn't drop from deadly for a Founder more skilled than Odo, to Odo-safe, over the span of less than half a meter. And considering that phasers can be set to release gamma bursts, such low level vulnerability to it (by your own statements they should die at levels too low to damage Fed ships if not humans as well) should have made flushing out and killing changelings cake for the Federation.

Also, he was able to hold his own in combat against this Founder, despite your Founder-wanking claims about him being orders of magnitude lesser than normal Founders. It's pretty obvious that this warp-capable SuperFounder was the freak exception rather than the norm as you are so dishonestly assuming.

This Founder was intent on not killing Odo, and didn't even try an energy weapon. And no amount of skill should give Laas such drastically different abilities than other Founders. It would be like a really great airplane pilot getting so good that he sprouts wings from his back.

Oh right, so the other Founders never demonstrated these abilities because they were "holding back", right? Why couldn't he just be a freak? Wesley Crusher can bend fucking spacetime, but I don't see people running around saying that all Star Trek humans can do this.

What other Founder was ever in a situation where it needed to (and was in a position to) go to warp without a ship? And when did I state that Odo was 'orders of magnitude lesser,' whatever that means? It speaks for itself that Odo can't even do the shape of ears correctly while other Founders mimic complete human/Romulan/Klingon anatomy down to the atomic level.

[Lord Poe]

As an aside...have we ever seen a Klingon disruptor fired at a person? I actually can't think of a single example.

It's in the same episode as the Klingon pointing the disruptor at the warp core: "Heart Of Glory"

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack2.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack3.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack4.jpg

Note the weapon didn't even leave a scorch mark on the E-D's corridor wall!

[Lord Poe]

The Force couldn't stop them from changing shape - Force TK isn't that precise.

Before The Storm

pg.38: Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as the mineral structure was reshuffled.Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press. Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

pg.67: "Sit where you like, and I'll put an air cushion under you."

Champions Of The Force

pg.64: Leia knew that even powerful Jedi could not manipulate large-scale phenomena like the weather; but they could move objects, and she realized that was what Streen did now. Not changing the weather, but simply moving the air, drawing it in from all directions, creating a self-contained but destructive tornado that struck toward Luke's body.

The Crystal Star

pg.169: She added another molocule,another,doubling and redoubling the number she affected. Soon a small handful of air vibrated with her energy. Its warmth took the chill from her cell. The swirl of air glowed red, then yellow, spreading spreading light into the corners of Jania's cell.

pg.294: Instead of speeding up molocules the way she speeded up the air to make light and heat, the way she spun the sand into tiny wind-devils, she slowed the water molocules in the swamp.

She slowed them and slowed them and nearly stopped them.

A fine film of ice formed near the bank. The muddy water froze, crackling around water-grass, cooling the warm air around them.

[Metrion Cascade]

As an aside...have we ever seen a Klingon disruptor fired at a person? I actually can't think of a single example.

It's in the same episode as the Klingon pointing the disruptor at the warp core: "Heart Of Glory"

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack2.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack3.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/smack/smack4.jpg

Note the weapon didn't even leave a scorch mark on the E-D's corridor wall!

Neither do Fed phasers.

[Metrion Cascade]

Before The Storm

Changelings mimic subjects at least down to the atomic level.

[Crown]

Before The Storm

Changelings mimic subjects at least down to the atomic level.

Did you miss the quote from The Crystal Star where Jaina was making light by rubbing air molecules together? (she was 8 at the time I believe)

[Lord Poe]

Neither do Fed phasers.

And? You asked for an instance where a Klingon disruptor was ever fired at a human. You got one.

Changelings mimic subjects at least down to the atomic level.

Jedi can manipulate objects at the atomic level. But in this case, they wouldn't need to. You said the Force wasn't precise enough to contain a changeling in its liquid form.

Can we say...concede?

[The Nomad]

Before The Storm

Changelings mimic subjects at least down to the atomic level.

Proof of this ? We know that Changelings have cells and a form of DNA.
From DS9 : there is an analysis of Odo's tissue displayed showing cells, it is vulnerable to a fucking virus, whose cure is a sequence of amino acids.
If they had such level of control, they would shove a kilometer-thick rod of white-hot metal up a simple virus' metaphoric ass. Why not freeze as an inert object and wait for a cure to be found, only periodically awakening to monitor the Vorta ? Oh wait, the virus still affects them even as they mimick inorganic objects... a hell of a virus .

Cut down the Founder-wanking please .

[Admiral_K]

Ok, so most people think a lightsaber would be of little use to actually kill a changeling given the nature of the weapon.

I take it the general consensus is that force lightging would definately roast a founder correct?

No. It's not even enough energy to give a humanoid third degree burns. Maybe if there's an example of some Jedi generating enough energy via Force lightning to roast or vape a humanoid, I'd concede that it should do some damage (although chances are it takes hundreds of times the energy of a humanoid-NDFing phaser blast to explode a Founder).

Well, to be fair the only people we've witnessed force lightning used on are Jedi. Their affinity with the force, undoubtedly affords them some protection. After all, Anakin (as we supposedly will learn in Ep3) somehow managed to survive falling into lava.

[beyond hope]

Another example of a Klingon disruptor fired at a humanoid target: Star Trek III ("a lucky hit, sir.")

[Lord Poe]

Another example of a Klingon disruptor fired at a humanoid target: Star Trek III ("a lucky hit, sir.")

That was a ship mounted disruptor; not what MC was asking about.

But more examples can be sen in "Way Of The Warrior". Some Klingons actually DID bring a gun to a gunfight.

[beyond hope]

I meant when Kruge shot the gunner. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[Metrion Cascade]

Before The Storm

Changelings mimic subjects at least down to the atomic level.

Proof of this ? We know that Changelings have cells and a form of DNA.
From DS9 : there is an analysis of Odo's tissue displayed showing cells, it is vulnerable to a fucking virus, whose cure is a sequence of amino acids.
If they had such level of control, they would shove a kilometer-thick rod of white-hot metal up a simple virus' metaphoric ass. Why not freeze as an inert object and wait for a cure to be found, only periodically awakening to monitor the Vorta ? Oh wait, the virus still affects them even as they mimick inorganic objects... a hell of a virus .

Then the canon info on Founders is self-contradictory. When scanned they appear to be exactly what they're mimicking. And even when put through transporters they aren't detected.

[Crown]

Proof of this ? We know that Changelings have cells and a form of DNA.
From DS9 : there is an analysis of Odo's tissue displayed showing cells, it is vulnerable to a fucking virus, whose cure is a sequence of amino acids.
If they had such level of control, they would shove a kilometer-thick rod of white-hot metal up a simple virus' metaphoric ass. Why not freeze as an inert object and wait for a cure to be found, only periodically awakening to monitor the Vorta ? Oh wait, the virus still affects them even as they mimick inorganic objects... a hell of a virus .

Then the canon info on Founders is self-contradictory. When scanned they appear to be exactly what they're mimicking. And even when put through transporters they aren't detected.

That could be an example on the limitations of the scanning equiptment.

[Darth Wong]

Then the canon info on Founders is self-contradictory. When scanned they appear to be exactly what they're mimicking. And even when put through transporters they aren't detected.

Transporters have failed to detect things before (hell, every "bio-threat episode" tends to involve such an event). What makes this so special that it forces you to conclude that the canon contradicts itself?

[RevWaldo]

In Episode 164 of DS9. "Chimera," Odo encounters a wandering changling who demonstrates that Changlings have the ability to transform into fire.

How does that work? Fire is energy not matter. Odo admits that it's never occured to him to try it. And why would it? Why would anyone think it's possible for a living creature to transform its matter into energy.

In attack of the clones, Jango Fett shoots Mace with a flame thrower. Mace does not use his light saber to block it. Instead Mace Jumps backwards and rips off his flaming cloak.

So what would happen to a changling in fire form confronted with a lightsabe?

[Lord Poe]

I meant when Kruge shot the gunner. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Ah. But even then, MC asked for disruptors against humans. But note from that example the smoke coming from that Klingon when he was shot.

[Darth Wong]

How does that work? Fire is energy not matter.

No, actually it's a chemical reaction in matter. Light is energy.

Odo admits that it's never occured to him to try it. And why would it? Why would anyone think it's possible for a living creature to transform its matter into energy.

Indeed, since that doesn't happen in this case. You're only demonstrating that you don't know jack about physics. Assuming you're not misrepresenting the scene, it only means that a changeling can look like a fire. To be an actual fire, he would have to be oxidizing parts of himself, which would cause him injury.

In attack of the clones, Jango Fett shoots Mace with a flame thrower. Mace does not use his light saber to block it. Instead Mace Jumps backwards and rips off his flaming cloak.

So what would happen to a changling in fire form confronted with a lightsabe?

Same thing that happens when a bunch of Klingons shoot him.

[RevWaldo]

How does that work? Fire is energy not matter.

No, actually it's a chemical reaction in matter. Light is energy.

Odo admits that it's never occured to him to try it. And why would it? Why would anyone think it's possible for a living creature to transform its matter into energy.

Indeed, since that doesn't happen in this case. You're only demonstrating that you don't know jack about physics. Assuming you're not misrepresenting the scene, it only means that a changeling can look like a fire. To be an actual fire, he would have to be oxidizing parts of himself, which would cause him injury.

There is no reason to insult me on my knowledge of physics. That doesn't add anything to your arguement. In any case, finding your attitude unprofessional and inappropriate to a civil discussion about a trival curiosity, I decided to double check on what fire is. http://www.nsf.gov/nstw_questions/chem/quest001.htm

The light is in the form of flame, which is composed of glowing particles of the burning material and certain gaseous products that are luminous at the temperature of the burning material.

Then from http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021122.html
"Fire is the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat, typically characterized by flame, a body of incandescent gas that contains and sustains the reaction and emits light and heat."


So it's not Energy or a Chemical reaction. Fire is glowing gas. That makes it less cofusing as the Changeling was entirely flame. and from a transcript I have found the Changeling Laas was floating in the air. http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/lite ... 29/564.txt

"23 INT. ODO'S QUARTERS (OPTICAL)

as Odo ENTERS and stops short when he sees a FLAME burning in the center of the room, suspended about a few feet off the ground."

"LAAS: You didn't realize it was me. Did you even know we could exist as fire?"

I believe we have already discussed in this thread what happens to Changlings in gas form when encountered with a disruptor. So I will not push the issue.

[Keevan_Colton]

"Fire is the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat, typically characterized by flame, a body of incandescent gas that contains and sustains the reaction and emits light and heat."

That's a textbook description of a chemical reaction you fucking retard.
Oxygen combining with fuel is a chemical reaction.

How fucking dumb are you?