What would a lightsaber do to a changeling?

[RevWaldo]

Fire is described as the glowing gas. You can claim the adjective "glowing" is a chemical reaction, but we are interested in the material, the substance of the fire which would be the noun "gas."

Can a changeling transform into a chemical reaction? If the Changeling becomes the reaction, then where did it's mass go?



Now did you notice how I did not make a personal attack against you? Notice my lack of obscenities?

Did you also notice we have already agreed that a Changeling that has turned into fire, would be hurt as it is a gas, the gas molecules that colide with the lightsaber would be destoryed.

Well since Keevan_Colton had to beat a dead horse, I'll humor him. Keevan, what happens when a lightsaber fights a chemical reaction? And since you have defined the fire as the chemical reaction, you have to keep in mind that the saber will not be hitting any matter.

Lightsaber hitting the reaction, not the substances causing the reaction.

[Haze Gray]

Fire is described as the glowing gas.

No, fire is descriped as "the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat," which is a chemical reaction. You invented the glowing gas description.

You can claim the adjective "glowing" is a chemical reaction, but we are interested in the material, the substance of the fire which would be the noun "gas."

Wow ... you're pretty dumb.

Now did you notice how I did not make a personal attack against you? Notice my lack of obscenities?

Style over Substance fallacy. I can say, "Two plus fuckin two equals four, you sonofabitch." Even if I use obscenities and personal attacks, the point is still valid.

Did you also notice we have already agreed that a Changeling that has turned into fire, would...

You have yet to prove it does anything but create the illusion of flame. Does it actually give off heat? Does it actually burn things? What does it actually do besides look like fire in that form?

Keevan, what happens when a lightsaber fights a chemical reaction? And since you have defined the fire as the chemical reaction, you have to keep in mind that the saber will not be hitting any matter.

A lightsaber has little if any effect on flame, as is evident in AOTC when Mace Windu jumps away from Jango's flamethrower attack instead of trying to deflect it..

[RevWaldo]

No, fire is descriped as "the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat," which is a chemical reaction. You invented the glowing gas description.

I did not. had you followed the link I provided It also describes fire by "The dancing flames are glowing gas." I shall assume you did not read all of the article.

And again. Why do you think you need personal attacks in your posts?They do nothing but display you as an angry poster, and that has nothing to do with your position, except to imply your position is solely to attack me.

You have yet to prove it does anything but create the illusion of flame. Does it actually give off heat? Does it actually burn things? What does it actually do besides look like fire in that form?

I suggest you read the transcript I provided if you want further details. Beyond what I provide. This will help your arguements advance beyond "you're dumb" and will advance the discussion as we will have a common base of information. Here is the snippet of Odo find a floating ball of fire in his quarters

"Odo ENTERS and stops short when he sees a FLAME burning in the center of the room, suspended about a few feet off the ground.

ODO (instinctively) "Computer, activate fire suppression sys--" He trails off when the FLAME FLICKERS brightly, almost as if in reaction to his words.

but since Fire is now being described as a chemical reaction and since the transcript says Laas is fire. I will say for the sake of this discussion that Laas, having turned into a chemical reaction would give off heat

I am satisfied with the conclusion we reached when the flame was the glowing gas it was defined to be. So this really isn't my question anymore.
Keevan wanted to beat the dead horse and declared fire is a chemical reaction despite the article calling the flames glowing gas. So what happens when a lightsaber hits a Changeling who has turned into a chemical reaction?

Although, I am a little curious as to where the Laas' mass went if it turned into a chemical reaction, because this is the reaction, not the substances causing the reaction. And if Laas is the chemical reaction, what is Laas using as fuel?

[Keevan_Colton]

You obviously are a complete fucking tool.

Fire is described as the rapid combination of oxygen and fuel.

It is stated that this is typically characterized by a body of incandescent gas which is a product of the fire. Now, here's a fucking big hint of you put A + B in and get C and D as products, you most likely have a chemical reaction of some sort going on or you've forgotten to do your maths homework properly.

Fire is a chemical reaction, pure and simple, it's a fucking basic textbook one....the simplest way of getting it would be 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O or Hydrogen gas (as a fuel) plus oxygen gas, mixed with heat becomes water.

Neither of them is fire, fire is the layman description of the way the chemical reaction occurs.

Fire gives off light and heat as part of the reaction, that's because the binding energy of water is less that that of hydrogen and oxygen so there is spare energy left over (actually, it's part of E=MC^2. and tied to the communal nature of electrons, but lets not get into that, you have enough trouble already)...that energy is released in the form of light and heat from the chemicals being used up.

This is why you need to put energy back into the system to turn water into oxygen and hydrogen again, usually by means of electrolysis. I've done my SYS chemistry so let me assure you, you stupid little fuck, that fire is a REACTION not a chemical or energy....it is caused by the combination of chemicals and release of energy but it is a REACTION.

[beyond hope]

RevWaldo:

from the link you posted-

"Fire is the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat, typically characterized by flame, a body of incandescent gas that contains and sustains the reaction and emits light and heat."

emphasis added.

Per the quote from the script, the apparent flame is suspended in the air, which gives us only one possible source of fuel. At what rate do you propose that the Founder's body is being consumed?

[Alyrium Denryle]

"Fire is the rapid combination of oxygen with fuel in the presence of heat, typically characterized by flame, a body of incandescent gas that contains and sustains the reaction and emits light and heat."

No numbnuts. Fire itself is an exothermic comustrion reaction. The fuel reacts with oxygen in the presence of heat and releases CO2 and H2O. The flames you see are the visible by-product of the reactions energy release in atmosphere. And a fire generally needs a good kick of energy to get it going.

[beyond hope]

Alyrium, was that for RevWaldo?

[Keevan_Colton]

Alyrium, was that for RevWaldo?

I think I can safely say it was.

[Howedar]

Now did you notice how I did not make a personal attack against you? Notice my lack of obscenities?

Now did y'all also notice how he missed the point? Notice his lack of comprehension?

Fucking tard.

[Metrion Cascade]

Then the canon info on Founders is self-contradictory. When scanned they appear to be exactly what they're mimicking. And even when put through transporters they aren't detected.

Transporters have failed to detect things before (hell, every "bio-threat episode" tends to involve such an event). What makes this so special that it forces you to conclude that the canon contradicts itself?

We're not talking about a microscopic virus the Federation's never seen before, hanging out on the inside of a cell membrane in the left lung of an otherwise unremarkable humanoid. We're talking about an entire person. Transporters do, as a matter of normal operation, record the DNA of the people they move (TNG "Unnatural Selection").

I'll also wait for an explanation of how Founders change mass so quickly (and form machines such as commbadges) if they're solid matter arranged in cells. And we know that medical tricorders can read and translate DNA in a matter of seconds (TNG "The Chase").

[Darth Wong]

Then the canon info on Founders is self-contradictory. When scanned they appear to be exactly what they're mimicking. And even when put through transporters they aren't detected.

Transporters have failed to detect things before (hell, every "bio-threat episode" tends to involve such an event). What makes this so special that it forces you to conclude that the canon contradicts itself?

We're not talking about a microscopic virus the Federation's never seen before, hanging out on the inside of a cell membrane in the left lung of an otherwise unremarkable humanoid. We're talking about an entire person.

Actually no, we're only talking about a tiny piece of protein inside a cell, because that's what DNA is.

Transporters do, as a matter of normal operation, record the DNA of the people they move (TNG "Unnatural Selection").

They needed a lock of Pulaski's hair for that procedure.

I'll also wait for an explanation of how Founders change mass so quickly (and form machines such as commbadges) if they're solid matter arranged in cells.

The change in apparent mass is obviously just bad writing which has to be explained away through some kind of subspace dodge. But the Incredible Shrinking Runabout in DS9 was composed of solid matter, and it lost mass too, so your logic does not follow.

And we know that medical tricorders can read and translate DNA in a matter of seconds (TNG "The Chase").

And they have been fooled on numerous occasions. Since you don't know how their scanning works, there is no reason to assume that the only way to fool a tricorder is to ACTUALLY change your DNA. The history of sensor technologies and ECM technologies is based on the intrinsic limitations of sensors; unless you're about to claim that tricorders are omnipotent, there are obviously ways to fool them. Once again, the fact that you can invent a biochemical virus that attacks and destroys Founders means that they obviously have native DNA.

[Metrion Cascade]

Transporters have failed to detect things before (hell, every "bio-threat episode" tends to involve such an event). What makes this so special that it forces you to conclude that the canon contradicts itself?

We're not talking about a microscopic virus the Federation's never seen before, hanging out on the inside of a cell membrane in the left lung of an otherwise unremarkable humanoid. We're talking about an entire person.

Actually no, we're only talking about a tiny piece of protein inside a cell, because that's what DNA is.

Transporters do, as a matter of normal operation, record the DNA of the people they move (TNG "Unnatural Selection").

They needed a lock of Pulaski's hair for that procedure.

They said they needed it because her last transport was after she contracted the virus. So they had DNA of her from the transporter, but it was already corrupted.

I'll also wait for an explanation of how Founders change mass so quickly (and form machines such as commbadges) if they're solid matter arranged in cells.

The change in apparent mass is obviously just bad writing which has to be explained away through some kind of subspace dodge. But the Incredible Shrinking Runabout in DS9 was composed of solid matter, and it lost mass too, so your logic does not follow.

How do we know it lost mass? And how do we know cellular organisms can create subspace fields?

And we know that medical tricorders can read and translate DNA in a matter of seconds (TNG "The Chase").

And they have been fooled on numerous occasions.

They've been blocked. But what example do you have of a tricorder detecting DNA that wasn't in front of it? (No, not Founders - that's circular.)

Since you don't know how their scanning works, there is no reason to assume that the only way to fool a tricorder is to ACTUALLY change your DNA. The history of sensor technologies and ECM technologies is based on the intrinsic limitations of sensors; unless you're about to claim that tricorders are omnipotent, there are obviously ways to fool them. Once again, the fact that you can invent a biochemical virus that attacks and destroys Founders means that they obviously have native DNA.

Or that the writers contradicted themselves. Meaning one statement or the other has to be reinterpreted to mean something other than what the writers foolishly intended, or simply ignored (like Picard's laser comment or Paris' comment about not being able to turn at warp, or God knows how many references to isotons and energy). Perhaps the 'virus' works more like a computer virus - mimicking it damages them psychologically, but like harmful software it doesn't attack them physically.

[The Nomad]

How do we know it lost mass? And how do we know cellular organisms can create subspace fields?

Species 8472. Tin Man IIRC.

Or that the writers contradicted themselves. Meaning one statement or the other has to be reinterpreted to mean something other than what the writers foolishly intended, or simply ignored (like Picard's laser comment or Paris' comment about not being able to turn at warp, or God knows how many references to isotons and energy).

So we throw out observed data in favour of your interpretation ?

Perhaps the 'virus' works more like a computer virus - mimicking it damages them psychologically, but like harmful software it doesn't attack them physically.

Considering that the cure was a fucking amino acid sequence ( meaning that the virus and therefore the Founder's organism are based on biochemistry ) and the virus caused visible tissue decay ( the way you'd expect a physically harmful pathogen to act ), I'd say no.

[Metrion Cascade]

How do we know it lost mass? And how do we know cellular organisms can create subspace fields?

Species 8472. Tin Man IIRC.

That doesn't explain how they change mass.

Or that the writers contradicted themselves. Meaning one statement or the other has to be reinterpreted to mean something other than what the writers foolishly intended, or simply ignored (like Picard's laser comment or Paris' comment about not being able to turn at warp, or God knows how many references to isotons and energy).

So we throw out observed data in favour of your interpretation ?

As if it's a novel idea. But no, we don't even have to do that. We can simply reinterpret how the virus operated against the Founders, since the current explanation contradicts other canon.

Perhaps the 'virus' works more like a computer virus - mimicking it damages them psychologically, but like harmful software it doesn't attack them physically.

Considering that the cure was a fucking amino acid sequence ( meaning that the virus and therefore the Founder's organism are based on biochemistry ) and the virus caused visible tissue decay ( the way you'd expect a physically harmful pathogen to act ), I'd say no.

With Founders their appearance is chosen. It's a voluntary function. The Founders' apparent damage would be psychosomatic. Like psychosomatic blindness or paralysis in humans. We've seen Starfleet create such destructive software before.

[The Nomad]

That doesn't explain how they change mass.

Yes, it does.

As if it's a novel idea. But no, we don't even have to do that. We can simply reinterpret how the virus operated against the Founders, since the current explanation contradicts other canon.

It contradicts only your interpretation of canon. See below.

With Founders their appearance is chosen. It's a voluntary function. The Founders' apparent damage would be psychosomatic. Like psychosomatic blindness or paralysis in humans. We've seen Starfleet create such destructive software before.

This is nonsensical. We've seen a display of Changeling cells, we know the virus is based on our chemistry, still affects their morphed bodies and you're still grasping at straws.
Your only argument is that Changelings fool sensors, and therefore are able to mimick objects down the atomic level, which is quite far-fetched.
In fact, since I've pointed out that living organisms can produce subspace fields, it stands to reason that they could fool subspace sensors ( which is the basis of their technology ) without necessarily having such a morphing resolution.

[The Nomad]

Note : your theory ( according to which Changelings can rearrange matter to the atomic level ) doesn't account for the missing mass in some of Odo's shapechangings ( handcuffs, bag, bird ). Subspace fields do.

[Metrion Cascade]

Subspace fields are easily detected. And blocking tricorder scans would make changelings EASIER to detect. If you scan ten people in a room and get human DNA in the first 9, then get nothing from number 10, number 10 is a changeling. It's not enough to block the scans. They'd have to be sending back false DNA readings (at the very least).

[Metrion Cascade]

Note : your theory ( according to which Changelings can rearrange matter to the atomic level ) doesn't account for the missing mass in some of Odo's shapechangings ( handcuffs, bag, bird ). Subspace fields do.

Actually my theory also involves them dumping and gaining mass to change size. And mass-lightening doesn't allow objects to get smaller or larger.

[The Nomad]

Subspace fields are easily detected. And blocking tricorder scans would make changelings EASIER to detect. If you scan ten people in a room and get human DNA in the first 9, then get nothing from number 10, number 10 is a changeling. It's not enough to block the scans. They'd have to be sending back false DNA readings (at the very least).

It doesn't have to block them. Using subspace fields allow Changelings to interact at whim with tricorder scans, thus fooling them.

Actually my theory also involves them dumping and gaining mass to change size. And mass-lightening doesn't allow objects to get smaller or larger.

ROFLMAO.
In that case, how do you explain where all the fucking matter goes ? It causes no fucking variation of mass in its surroundings. No mass variation from solid objects, no big air rush...
And in that case, Changelings would be nigh-invulnerable. How do you explain that Odo was threatened by a fucking bath'leth in "Way of the Warrior" ? He could have absorbed it ( and perhaps the Klingon yielding it ) without problem ! And don't tell me Odo is less experienced, we've seen him doing feats that would call abilities of that magnitude multiple times ( turning into a bird, handcuffs... ).
It would also allow them to absorb incoming energy weapons of light turbolaser grade ! Think about it : the difference of weight between Admiral Leighton and a fucking pigeon could be 80 kg, which means that the Changeling could exchange 1600 megatons worth of energy with its surroundings ! Do you imagine the kind of irrealistic efficiency this ability calls ? Why don't we ever get to see Changelings using such abilities to replicate stuff ? If they can exchange matter with their surroundings the way you describe it without causing visible variations, that means that they can replicate said surroundings at whim, and have such a fine control of matter that the matter reorganization causes no visible effects ! How come we've never seen Changelings ( barring, perhaps, Laas, who was certainly a freak ) applying such kinds of powers when they would have been useful ( the Martok Changeling, for example... ). This ability to reorganize surrounding matter would allow them to, say, go through solid objects ( progressively reorganizing the object... )...
Actually, subspace technojunk works better. Changelings could control their density and reduce at the same time lighten their mass with subspace stuff.

[Slartibartfast]

They've been blocked. But what example do you have of a tricorder detecting DNA that wasn't in front of it? (No, not Founders - that's circular.)

Data's mom.

In fact, it detected DNA, internal organs, vital signs and a shitload of stuff that wasn't there at all (not even "mimicked).