The American conservative support base

[Uraniun235]

Basically, there are a lot of people living in small towns and even in places where the next neighbor is over a mile away, where communities can effectively enforce strict moral codes and more or less brainwash most of the children they raise into their way of thinking. It's real easy to convince most people that your way is the right way when they either never have the opportunity to see anything else, or when much of the outside world is portrayed as 'deviancy pushed by the Devil and you're much better off staying with your family and prayin' to God at the local church every morning lest your soul go straight to the fires of Hell'.

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

[Glocksman]

Basically, there are a lot of people living in small towns and even in places where the next neighbor is over a mile away, where communities can effectively enforce strict moral codes and more or less brainwash most of the children they raise into their way of thinking. It's real easy to convince most people that your way is the right way when they either never have the opportunity to see anything else, or when much of the outside world is portrayed as 'deviancy pushed by the Devil and you're much better off staying with your family and prayin' to God at the local church every morning lest your soul go straight to the fires of Hell'.

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

Pardon me if I don't subscribe to your belief that parents bringing up their children in the manner they choose (as long as they don't violate any laws) is 'brainwashing' because they happen to be rural conservative instead of urban liberal.

In fact, this post smacks of a 'they believe different than I do, so they must be evil' philosophy. Whatever happened to diversity?

Before you take to addressing this nonexistent problem, just remember that us hicks in the sticks own most of the guns.

[Darth Raptor]

Educate, educate, educate. It's the only way. Having good public schools in these areas gets our foot in the door. They needn't push a social agenda, but rather expose children to logic and train them in the proper use thereof. A lot of the reason hillbilly communities have remained so is because they have hillbilly school administrations. Local PT associations and religious groups have far too much clout in what should be a government institution. Mandatory public education, an all-round invalidation of religious-school diplomas, and stringent educational standards coming from the federal government, not the local boobs.

It would be a start at least.

[admiral_danielsben]

You've basically forgot about the brainwashing that takes place in public schools. I know - I've spent the past 11 years as a student in them. And they're not even bad schools - the High School I'm in is actually rather good. But everything has a bias, and it's often thrown in early. It is typically a leftist bias.

Consider: In Kindergarten, I had environmentalism introduced to me via "RecyClo" and "Captain Planet" - both of whom had the message that all polluters were evil bastards and that environmentalism was always a good thing. Note that this is not always (hell, not usually) the case. However, for years I had these 'environmentalistic' ideas. It wasn't until middle school when I began to doubt them. All thanks to public school, which re-inforced these ideas with movies such as "Fern Gully" - not a bad cartoon, but hugely enviro-biased.

Also: In high school, I have taken the habit of asking a few teachers their political affilitiation. I've asked maybe seven or eight of them. Only one was a Republican (and he was a Chemistry teacher), two more didn't care about politics, and the rest (including ALL of my social studies teachers) were Democrats - some 'moderate', some not. I've had some pretty lively debates with one of my 10th grade English teachers.

And: in my AP World History class, the Japanese Internment camps took up about as much academic time as the entire military war; slightly more, in fact. World War II took up about 3 periods; only about a third of a period was devoted to any sort of battle. One period went to root causes, the internment camps got one-half period (another half-period for the Holocaust), and the rest was about the home front, including a sizable amount on racism and sexism. Okay, all those are realities but.... World War II wasn't primarily about racism and sexism; there was also something called a war going on? No mention of Midway, only brief footnotes on Coral Sea; the only things covered in any detail were Normandy, Stalingrad and the atomic bombs.

Urban schools are often no better, or are sometimes even worse, than rural schools. Consider DC: public schools consistently score 50th in the nation in terms of academic performance; this is why DC residents so frequently say "Thank God for Mississippi" (Mississiippi is consistently number 51, and the only state worse). Any family with money in DC (or New York City, or Boston, or Chicago, or any of a dozen other big cities) either sends their kids to private school or moves out (DC has lost 100,000 people in the past decade; a lot of families with any sort of money are moving to Maryland or Virginia. DC is presently mostly a mixture of poor families that cannot afford to leave, and wealthier people who are either young, old, single, gay, or congressmen (and a lot of them live in Maryland or Virginia, too)). DC, New York, and most other urban areas have very strong school unions, high per-student funds, and other such niceties; yet they don't perform.

As a public school student, i say the best thing is to eliminate public schools, get rid of most of the tax burden, offer vouchers to poor families that cannot afford the tuition of private or parochial schools. Okay, maybe establishing charter schools or public 'second-chance' schools isn't too bad. However, public schools are a money hole. So are agricultural subsidies and the majority of non-defense spending (and some defense spending, too - just not as much). But this is just about schools. We'd be far better off if taxes were lower and kids could be sent to a private or religious school.

And what is wrong with values such as: be responsible, don't get someone pregnant or become pregnant unless the pair is in a stable relationship, do good things for society, etc.

Contrary to popular opinion, most religious people (even rural ones) do not have such a hellfire and damnation approach to every nonbeliever. If nothing else, they realize that being nice to them makes them more likely to convert than telling them they'll go to hell.

[Darth Wong]

Pardon me if I don't subscribe to your belief that parents bringing up their children in the manner they choose (as long as they don't violate any laws) is 'brainwashing' because they happen to be rural conservative instead of urban liberal.

Don't get your panties in a knot. He already explained that rural communities are far less accepting of cultural diversity than urban communities, and this is easily borne out by observation. If you seriously deny that rural communities are far less accepting of cultural diversity than urban ones (hence more conformist and more akin to brainwashing) then you should perhaps pay someone to go buy a shovel and dig your head out from the sand.

In fact, this post smacks of a 'they believe different than I do, so they must be evil' philosophy. Whatever happened to diversity?

Indeed; rural communities are generally lacking in it. But by all means, if you can show me lots of examples of rural communities with annual Gay Pride parades or well-known "gay" town districts, let me know.

Before you take to addressing this nonexistent problem, just remember that us hicks in the sticks own most of the guns.

"Appeal to Force" fallacy. Try again.

[Glocksman]

Pardon me if I don't subscribe to your belief that parents bringing up their children in the manner they choose (as long as they don't violate any laws) is 'brainwashing' because they happen to be rural conservative instead of urban liberal.

Don't get your panties in a knot. He already explained that rural communities are far less accepting of cultural diversity than urban communities, and this is easily borne out by observation. If you seriously deny that rural communities are far less accepting of cultural diversity than urban ones (hence more conformist and more akin to brainwashing) then you should perhaps pay someone to go buy a shovel and dig your head out from the sand.

Sure they're more conformist on average. This is what happens when everyone knows everyone. It makes social controls easier to impose. That's not the point of contention. My point of contention with the post is this:

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

With this quote and the thread title, he turns a cultural issue into a political issue. You can argue all you want about small town America's cultural intolerance, but when you turn it into a political issue and call it a problem, you happen to stumhle across this little thing called the bill of rights.

LazyRaptor's reply makes it even worse by equating conservatism with a lack of a quality education.

Educate, educate, educate. It's the only way. Having good public schools in these areas gets our foot in the door.

Never mind that there are many principled, well educated conservatives, just as there are principled, well educated liberals. Conversely there are just as many liberal morons (see the DU boards) as there are conservative morons.

Mandatory public education, an all-round invalidation of religious-school diplomas, and stringent educational standards coming from the federal government, not the local boobs.

Interesting.

I work with a black guy who isn't Catholic, yet he busts his ass to pay his son's tuition at a parochial school because he doesn't like his neighborhood school.

Could it be that the local Catholic school provides a better education than his public school district?

As a graduate of that same public school system, I can tell you that at the time of my attendance, teacher quality and class material varied from outstanding to mediocre (none were actually bad). If I had a child, I'd be busting my ass to send him or her to the parochial school, and I'm not Catholic.

Yet Raptor would deny me the right to see that my child has a quality education.

Indeed; rural communities are generally lacking in it. But by all means, if you can show me lots of examples of rural communities with annual Gay Pride parades or well-known "gay" town districts, let me know.

Diversity doesn't just mean gay pride days. Diversity is respect of all people and reasonable viewpoints. By his depiction of conservatism as a 'problem', U235 is limiting diversity.

"Appeal to Force" fallacy. Try again.

That wasn't serious. Yet.

There may come a time when we have to, but that time isn't in the forseeable future. Perhaps when a hypothetical USA PATRIOT IV is enacted, but not now.[/quote]

[Aeolus]

Basically, there are a lot of people living in small towns and even in places where the next neighbor is over a mile away, where communities can effectively enforce strict moral codes and more or less brainwash most of the children they raise into their way of thinking. It's real easy to convince most people that your way is the right way when they either never have the opportunity to see anything else, or when much of the outside world is portrayed as 'deviancy pushed by the Devil and you're much better off staying with your family and prayin' to God at the local church every morning lest your soul go straight to the fires of Hell'.

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

it shouldn't, just because you don't like what the believe doesn't mean they can't believe it. They have just as much right to live thier lives as they see fit ,as you do

[Col. Crackpot]

people in the sticks are pretty isolated on the average. isolated from ideas, cultural trends, education. My wife's Aunt and cousins lived in Swainesboro Georgia for a year and a half. while they were there the following obervations were made:

The man of the house had to make busines decisions. most people wouldn't even take a check from her Aunt.

The local TV stations blocked out major network programs like Oprah, and many prime time shows. They were replaced with Jesus stuff.

One time when shopping with my wife who was visiting, thery were asked to hurry up because the shopkeeper had to go to lunch and she wanted to "lock my nigger in, 'cuz ya'll know how they are."


Granted not all of Georgia is like that, as Joe and Mayabird can attest to, but in the rural hickville parts, its a different world.

[Raptor 597]

Rural area not socially accepting accepting at all. If anything they don't lynch black people because the police and FBI will be all over the place and the media to make it look like Hicksville USA. Most are Republicans or Democrats without a cause or a clue for that matter. When you defeat their simple Pro-Bush arguments they'll simply keep repeating it in different terms. When someone says they'll vote Democrat namely black(it always follows racial lines here except for the old timer who still thinks the KKK has an major voice in the Democratic Party) the Republicans just "why?", and no serious response is ever given. Though some are genuinely open and quite intelligent most still hold onto the: "Black and white can't mix. Hey! get out of my daughters room you monkey bastard" and other subtle racist remarks like "They took me Jearb!". However, it is rather amusing when an wealthy white man takes a black mistress it is always hush hush. Also all of these "moral codes" are really sexist because they let boys be boys while women must be an submissive homemaker. It saddens me that I hail from such blood and must interact with idiots like this everyday.

[Durandal]

Sure they're more conformist on average. This is what happens when everyone knows everyone. It makes social controls easier to impose. That's not the point of contention. My point of contention with the post is this:

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

With this quote and the thread title, he turns a cultural issue into a political issue. You can argue all you want about small town America's cultural intolerance, but when you turn it into a political issue and call it a problem, you happen to stumhle across this little thing called the bill of rights.

So cultural intolerance among a sizable portion of the population in the United States isn't a problem? Don't be absurd. You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

[MKSheppard]

You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

Seriously, I don't see a damn problem with where my dad lives, which
is the archetypical small town, only 3,000 population. Nice place to live,
just don't speed. teh damn cops fund themselves through speeding
tickets, so stay within the fucking speed limit, even if it says 25 MPH
and noone else is on the road.

[Augustus]

So cultural intolerance among a sizable portion of the population in the United States isn't a problem? Don't be absurd. You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

So are you arguing that Conservatism is synonymous with intolerance?

[Sam Or I]

You are stereotyping all small rural towns which is total Bullshit. I grew up in a small community of less then 50 people. The closest neighbors were 30 miles away outside the immedate community. I wewnt to a one room school house for K-6 grade (I was literally half of the 6th grade before I moved). And get this.......OUR TEACHER WAS OPENLY GAY. When my parents moved to the city I was lightyears ahead in school on some subjects, and behind in others. There was no church in the town, and only a few really devote religious people who made the trip 30 miles to the closest church. There was a mixture of democrats and republicans in the town. There were no black people, but they were welcome, a couple hispanic families, and for awhile an Asian family.

On a side note this was in the mountians California, but it was still isolated from any major city, the closest being 60 miles away.

The only brainwashing I recieved was from satellite TV from denver, which I can tell you, they absolutely worship the Broncos. I have come to hate John Elway from that show.

[Glocksman]

Sure they're more conformist on average. This is what happens when everyone knows everyone. It makes social controls easier to impose. That's not the point of contention. My point of contention with the post is this:

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

With this quote and the thread title, he turns a cultural issue into a political issue. You can argue all you want about small town America's cultural intolerance, but when you turn it into a political issue and call it a problem, you happen to stumhle across this little thing called the bill of rights.

So cultural intolerance among a sizable portion of the population in the United States isn't a problem? Don't be absurd. You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

He's not talking just about cultural intolerance. He's stating that small town cultural intolerance is a problem because in his view it is 'conducive to conservative thinking'.

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

That makes it political, and attempts to supress political viewpoints are against both the letter and the spirit of the bill of rights.

For the record, I agree that most small towns are culturally intolerant to one degree or another. That's not the issue. The question that needs to be addressed is do people from outside these communities have the right to impose 'solutions' in order to change the political ideology of these areas to one they agree with.

The answer is a flat 'no'. As long as the community is complying with the laws, no one has the right to march in and forcibly impose changes for that reason.

[MKSheppard]

As long as the community is complying with the laws, no one has the right to march in and forcibly impose changes for that reason.

Why do you think small towns are universally hated by Yuppies? They
move in with their brat pack of kids, so they can have cheap housing
and commute to work in the big city, and they try to have "progressive
laws" passed, and these bills of course get shot down because the people
who live there already don't like 'em, so they go and rant about small
town intolerance in the big city.

[Mayabird]

Granted not all of Georgia is like that, as Joe and Mayabird can attest to, but in the rural hickville parts, its a different world.

No, actually I came from a really shitty small town with a shitty little school that I still loathe to this day. (Joe came from the suburbs of Atlanta.) I only think I survived that terrible evil of being smart because I'm also part Asian, and when that stupid The Bell Curve came out, it said that Asians are naturally smarter, and they all believed it. They were pretty intolerant, but they'd ignore your wrong skin color if you prayed to the right god in the right way. Same with the schools. My biology teacher basically told my class (and every other class for that matter) that she wasn't going to teach evolution because it was against God, and anybody who believes in evolution is going to hell.

Those bastards tried to scare my little brother into getting baptised as a Southern Baptist and would have succeeded if not for a streak of bad luck by those morons. I'm not forgiving them until the town is safely underneath a toxic waste dump.

PS Don't you DARE insinuate that I'm a yuppie ever again.

[Mayabird]

Bah, meant to preview. I didn't mean to say that Crackpot was calling me a yuppie. I was going to say something like "Don't accuse me of being a yuppie" but directed towards other parties who did say as such.

[RedImperator]

Mandatory public education, an all-round invalidation of religious-school diplomas, and stringent educational standards coming from the federal government, not the local boobs.

It would be a start at least.

Care to justify actions that would shut down hundreds of the best performing schools in the Northeastern cities, i.e., the Catholic schools administered by the local archdiocees?

By the way, has it occured to nobody who's in this thread demanding education be federalized and private schooling outlawed that the Federal government is just as capable of knuckling to political pressure as local school boards? At least when East Bumfuck High decides to stop teaching Godless Evolution, parents still have the option of private schools or sending the kids to a neighboring district. The same people who are complaining (rightly) about Congress being a pack of corrupt mouth-breathing dumbfucks in other threads are demanding Congress be given control over the education of every child in America.

And at any rate, Federalizing education and banning private schools wouldn't do a damn thing to fight fundamentalists, because hardcore fundies home school.

[SirNitram]

So cultural intolerance among a sizable portion of the population in the United States isn't a problem? Don't be absurd. You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

So are you arguing that Conservatism is synonymous with intolerance?

Wow, talk about a Leap in Logic fallacy. The post talks about how small towns breed intolerance, and you reply with 'So Conservatism is intolerance, huh?'.

Conservatism and the values it claims(Small government, etc, etc) are generally positive. Of course, small towns generally start conservative and push on towards repressive, which is the whole point of the posts here.

[Darth Wong]

This argument confuses social conservatism with all forms of conservatism. Fiscal conservatism has no relation to intolerance; it is an economic theory which you either agree with or you don't. But social conservatism is almost synonymous with intolerance, and that is no stereotype; it is a fact. Social conservatism is defined by its desire to prevent social change, and the past was a very intolerant place (much more so than the present), so like it or not, social conservatism is intolerance. You cannot separate social conservatism from intolerance any more than you can separate politics and lies.

Hell, look at the rallying cry on gay marriage: "don't change the traditional definition of marriage". Could you not summarize the very essence of social conservatism and its associated intolerance than by simply quoting and analyzing the thinking behind that single line?

[Durandal]

So cultural intolerance among a sizable portion of the population in the United States isn't a problem? Don't be absurd. You're knee-jerking because someone is daring to point out an inherent problem with small, rural towns (being that they breed intolerance through isolationism) and asking how it should be fixed.

So are you arguing that Conservatism is synonymous with intolerance?

No. Just because small towns tend to be conservative and more intolerant doesn't mean that conservatism must inevitably lead to intolerance. However, if they were socially liberal, you can bet that they'd be more tolerant and accepting of other people (except for maybe social conservatives ).

He's not talking just about cultural intolerance. He's stating that small town cultural intolerance is a problem because in his view it is 'conducive to conservative thinking'.

You're right; I missed that. My apologies.

I think this illustrates a big problem in America today though. "Conservative" is a stance commonly associated with the religious right, and "liberal" is something you call a whiny, bleeding-heart hippie. I'm liberal-leaning, but I hate being associated with people on the far left.

Why do you think small towns are universally hated by Yuppies? They move in with their brat pack of kids, so they can have cheap housing and commute to work in the big city, and they try to have "progressive laws" passed, and these bills of course get shot down because the people who live there already don't like 'em, so they go and rant about small town intolerance in the big city.

If the laws they're trying to get passed are aimed at moving some backward rural town into the 20th century, then they've got every right to bitch. I have absolutely no sympathy for small towns being dragged into the modern era with laws promoting tolerance. Scenarios like Flashdance come to mind.

[Galvatron]

Scenarios like Flashdance come to mind.

Don't you mean Footloose?

[Andrew J.]

So, given that such environments are conducive to conservative thinking, and that such environments are abundantly prolific in America (hello vast tracts of rural land), how should this problem be addressed?

Two words: urban sprawl. Coruscant-level urbanization should do the trick.

[Augustus]

Wow, talk about a Leap in Logic fallacy. The post talks about how small towns breed intolerance, and you reply with 'So Conservatism is intolerance, huh?'.

No leap in logic. I was just asking Durandal to clarify his position - which he was nice enough to do.

[Frank Hipper]

Scenarios like Flashdance come to mind.

Don't you mean Footloose?

Footloose was based on Broken Arrow, OK.
A town on the outskirts of Tulsa where, yes, dancing is illegal.