Borg Space invades the Empire

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-06-30 01:22am

Techno_Union wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Gods that was an ugly thread, unfortuately I let myself get sucked in it and spent most of the work day on SB. I'm so fired....

But seriously, it's just the same argument over and over and over. And most everything has been shot down so many times, I don't get why people still keep believing the stuff?
I wholeheartdly agree, especially this dipshit names Bryan. He has made me mad, and of course he brings up the "gay ass" wanking things which ticked me off, is it not easy to not use the phrase "gay ass?" I am not really all that touchy about it but sometimes its just annoying when you here it so much, whew, glad I got that out, thanks for listening.

I take it you're Grand_Admiral over at SB?

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2004-06-30 03:39am

The Third Man wrote:If you won't accept a stupid Borg collective and are looking for reasons for the general ineptness of their moves against Earth, how about the idea that they are "playing games" - by making regular but feeble attacks and messing about creating creepy Borg queens, their plan is to provoke Earth and SF into developing new technologies faster than they otherwise would. Once there is sufficient interesting tech, the Borg arrive in full force and bag it; more beneficial to them than just grabbing a few billion extra drones. The Borg threat has been cited as the motivator behind things such as quantum torps and the Defiant, so maybe the plan is working :) Presumably they would apply this technique to other species that they determine to be sufficiently inventive, it's sensible to actively farm technological assimilation-fodder than just grab it as and when it's encountered.

This idea has been discussed before, it doesn't work when you take into consideration that in First Contact, after being defeated the Borg traveled backward in time to take over primitive warp-threshold Earth. In this case, this would not only negate any technological advances made by the Federation, but it would cancel out any innovations even before the Borg would've first met.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-06-30 12:34pm

apocolypse wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Gods that was an ugly thread, unfortuately I let myself get sucked in it and spent most of the work day on SB. I'm so fired....

But seriously, it's just the same argument over and over and over. And most everything has been shot down so many times, I don't get why people still keep believing the stuff?
I wholeheartdly agree, especially this dipshit names Bryan. He has made me mad, and of course he brings up the "gay ass" wanking things which ticked me off, is it not easy to not use the phrase "gay ass?" I am not really all that touchy about it but sometimes its just annoying when you here it so much, whew, glad I got that out, thanks for listening.
I take it you're Grand_Admiral over at SB?

Yep, sorry for not introducing myself properly.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-06-30 03:10pm

Now, onto size. I'm going by memory here, but let me try to break this down. In Scorpion Part 1, Janeway states that they don't know how many borg vessles are out there, but their space covers thousands of solar systems... while it's not a definate number, it gives us a fair idea of what they're all about. Not to mention, when Kes throws Voyager away from Borg space, she tosses them 10,000 lightyears, which Janeways immediately says is beyond borg space. Of course, we also know that they continue to run into Borg from that point on, so maybe they're not ENTIRELY out of Borg space. So we can guess that Borg space, at least in that one direction, is maybe approx 10,000 lightyears - not a bad amount at all... plus they have a presence in other quadrants, galactic planes, and possibly dimensions (unless fluidic space is their first). Not too bad at all, I'd say. Now onto the size of fleets. I have absolutely no clue how many ships are available in the star wars galaxy, but from what I gather, it's in the area of millions (feel free to comment!). Now as I stated above, Janeway didn't have a clue how many ships they were, but in a later episode (and I am trying very hard to remember which one), she states that they would be facing millions of vessles. Now, I've seen this reference used elsewhere as well, so I don't think i was dreaming it up. Now obviously not all of those "millions" will be cubes or spheres, the borg have many different types of ships. But with those numbers, I think the Borg should be able to put up one hell of a fight with the star wars galaxy. And of course, there's another advantage the Borg have... they assimilate. While the star wars option is to destroy all enemy ships, the Borg will be moving upon entire worlds and assimilating them... growing stronger while at the same time, the opponent grows weaker. Whatever technological advantage the Star Wars group has can easily be evened out by the Borg assimilating as much as possible, and adapting or even integrating what information/technology they come across. We know that the Collective is MASSIVE... hell, in the Primary Unicomplex alone, Tuvok read "trillions" of lifesigns when they were on the mission to rescue 7 of 9. Factor in all the worlds, and vessels the collective has, then that's possibly many many trillions of individuals.

I'm surprised that he forgot to mention the evidence against such a big Borg collective from a far more reliable source than starfleet personal, the Borg themselves.

Scorpion:
BORG Collective]: Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix Zero-One-Zero, Grid Nineteen. Eight planets destroyed, three hundred twelve vessels disabled, four million, six hundred twenty-one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel, and take it into the alien realm.

Only 4 million Borg on 8 planets and 312 ships.

Mabye there are not many Borg outside the Unimatrix?

And from an Ex-Borg

Prey:
Seven: "They were the only species to offer true resistance to the Borg. They destroyed millions of drones hundreds of our worlds. I have reason to be agitated."

The Borg were on the verge of defeat after they lost a "hundreds of worlds" and "millions of drones"(This supports the idea that the Borg have only small popultions outside of large popultion centeres).

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-06-30 09:02pm

Techno_Union wrote:Yep, sorry for not introducing myself properly.

Nah, don't even worry about it. I was just making sure I had things straight in my head. Thanks for all the info in the other thread, BTW.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-01 04:17pm

Christ almight, and this point I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-01 04:35pm

apocolypse wrote:Christ almight, and this point I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.

Unfourtunatly if you were to leave right now they would say crap like, "Oh you can't prove your point," or similar crap. I find it amusing to sit here and watch this Spike guy try and defend his pathetic views.

But even then, this Spike person seems to ignore my posts often, not sure why.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-01 08:09pm

Techno_Union wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Christ almight, and this point I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.
Unfourtunatly if you were to leave right now they would say crap like, "Oh you can't prove your point," or similar crap. I find it amusing to sit here and watch this Spike guy try and defend his pathetic views. But even then, this Spike person seems to ignore my posts often, not sure why.

I know, that's why I haven't yet. But I'll be damned if I don't have to keep repeating myself over and over. BTW, I just saw your last post over there. I nearly laughed my ass off when I saw the whole, "Are you going to address the arguments" bit. I noticed how he conveniently skipped over it and started talking about velocity or whatever.

Thanks for hangin in there, I apreciate not having to suffer his wall of ignorance alone.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-01 08:20pm

apocolypse wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Christ almight, and this point I'm almost ready to throw in the towel.
Unfourtunatly if you were to leave right now they would say crap like, "Oh you can't prove your point," or similar crap. I find it amusing to sit here and watch this Spike guy try and defend his pathetic views. But even then, this Spike person seems to ignore my posts often, not sure why.
I know, that's why I haven't yet. But I'll be damned if I don't have to keep repeating myself over and over. BTW, I just saw your last post over there. I nearly laughed my ass off when I saw the whole, "Are you going to address the arguments" bit. I noticed how he conveniently skipped over it and started talking about velocity or whatever. Thanks for hangin in there, I apreciate not having to suffer his wall of ignorance alone.

Its fine, I was dissapointed when Darkstar closed his board so I had to find some other stupid rabid trekkie who don't know logic if it bit'em on their ass.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-01 08:24pm

Techno_Union wrote:Its fine, I was dissapointed when Darkstar closed his board so I had to find some other stupid rabid trekkie who don't know logic if it bit'em on their ass.

Damn, I didn't know he closed his board. I actually registered a few days ago, now I know why I never got an acceptance email.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-01 08:28pm

apocolypse wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:Its fine, I was dissapointed when Darkstar closed his board so I had to find some other stupid rabid trekkie who don't know logic if it bit'em on their ass.
Damn, I didn't know he closed his board. I actually registered a few days ago, now I know why I never got an acceptance email.

Ya, he shut it down when only a few agreed with his ways, not to mention the countless SD.netters who proved all of the outragerous claims wrong. There is a thread here that discusses it further, I think in the HoS.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-01 09:41pm

Techno_Union wrote: I wholeheartdly agree, especially this dipshit names Bryan. He has made me mad, and of course he brings up the "gay ass" wanking things which ticked me off, is it not easy to not use the phrase "gay ass?" I am not really all that touchy about it but sometimes its just annoying when you here it so much, whew, glad I got that out, thanks for listening.

If you check out the hate mail, as well as the SB babies page, yes, he's that Bryan.

Recognised as the Great Goof, total idiot, Republican and Bush supporter, makes Rush limburg looks like a Democrat and liberal. Generally, if you find yourself on the same side as him, prepare to jump ship.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2004-07-01 11:33pm

The idiots tried to play the "5 million isoton" argument. Shot down!

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-01 11:51pm

Jadeite wrote:The idiots tried to play the "5 million isoton" argument. Shot down!

Well what would you expect, they know the Borg wouldn't win in a conventional war so they had to resort to their super-duper-terrific-bomb'a'majigy'thingy.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-02 01:27am

As far as weaponry is concerned, it's a common thing for star wars fans to state that since the star wars ships use plasma based weaponry, Borg shields could not adapt (since in many instances, borg adapt to frequencies).

Plasma does not have frequency so the Borg could not adapt to it.

In the episode Dark Frontier (part 2), they "triaxilated their sheild geometry to absorb their phaser pulses"... leading the obvious conclusion that simply adapting to frequencies is not the only way the Borg have to defend themselves.

Phasers do have frequency so the Borg could adapt tot them.

Of course, the next argument is that the Borg ships simply couldn't stand upto the sheer amount of raw power the star wars ships would unleash upon them. Unfortunately, I can't think of any examples when the Borg were subject to such an amount of power (assuming that star wars peoples calculations are correct), so that's hard to guage. The best example I can think of is in Firsts Contact. A single Borg cube is headed towards Earth. Now remember, this is a period of time when the Federation is at war with the Dominion, and there're massive fleets all over the place, and at least 1 within distance of Earth (the 3rd fleet, I believe). We know the battle started in the Typhon sector, and it was a running battle all the way to Earth. Of course we never see the FULL Starfleet Armada onscreen, only the bits and pieces that were left over when they finally got to Earth. Some have speculated that for the Enterprise to get from the Neutral Zone to Earth would take at LEAST 1 day, so that would mean that ONE Borg cube took a monsterous pounding from a massive fleet for a full day, and was still able to kick ass. If not for Picards ability to find that weak spot, chances are, the entire fleet would've been decimated.

The problem 200 gigaton turbolasers are more powerful than the entire FC armada. And since the Borg could not adapt tot them they would be even more effective.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 02:32pm

RevWaldo wrote:Then unless anyone else can think of possible replies the guy might make to "if the Borg are so strong, why is it than that the Borg didn't conquer alpha quadrant by now?" then I'd say this guy will have no rebutal we can't negate.

TCO's argument has been that it's a plot device. Unfortunately for him, one can carry that only so far. The sheer incompetance of the Borg is astonishing considering what they were able to do to the Federation in their first engagement. Against a overwhelmingly vast and warlike cilivilization like the Empire, I don't see the Borg changing their tactics at all -- charging straight ahead at the enemy with their verbal droning (no pun intended). The Imperial commanders might suspect a trick initially, up until the Borg repeated their tactics the umteenth time.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-02 04:27pm

This Spike person just won't stop. He wraps his arguments around and around then happens to forget things people have already said. Its not worth the time anymore.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-02 04:37pm

Techno_Union wrote:This Spike person just won't stop. He wraps his arguments around and around then happens to forget things people have already said. Its not worth the time anymore.

I was wondering if you were going to keep posting. I don't blame you, this has to be one of the dumbest noobs I've ever butted heads with. I lost count on how many falacies he's committed. And don't forget, every beam that comes out of a deflector dish, is a deflector beam.....even if it's clearly stated that it's not.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-02 04:40pm

apocolypse wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:This Spike person just won't stop. He wraps his arguments around and around then happens to forget things people have already said. Its not worth the time anymore.
I was wondering if you were going to keep posting. I don't blame you, this has to be one of the dumbest noobs I've ever butted heads with. I lost count on how many falacies he's committed. And don't forget, every beam that comes out of a deflector dish, is a deflector beam.....even if it's clearly stated that it's not.

I'll just keep posting if he keeps being a jackass. But mostly about the really stupid stuff, I just made some points which I would like him to address, so I am staying in longer.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-02 04:41pm

Also, the funny thing is how Spike takes so damn long to reply even though he is browsing the forums.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 04:50pm

Techno_Union wrote:This Spike person just won't stop. He wraps his arguments around and around then happens to forget things people have already said. Its not worth the time anymore.

After his ad hominem attack on me, I dismissed him and will pay him no further mind.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-02 04:56pm

Techno_Union wrote:Also, the funny thing is how Spike takes so damn long to reply even though he is browsing the forums.

No kidding, and there's been several times he'll skip over something I've posted to him to go after something you or jegs posted after mine. God I wish I was a mod somedays.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-02 04:59pm

apocolypse wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:Also, the funny thing is how Spike takes so damn long to reply even though he is browsing the forums.
No kidding, and there's been several times he'll skip over something I've posted to him to go after something you or jegs posted after mine. God I wish I was a mod somedays.

No kidding. Anyone remember how this entire thing turned into ISD vs Cube? Its rather silly seeing as though the ISD would not be alone, or how the Borg cube knows exactly where the ISD is but the ISD can't track the Cube.

Ah well, I will stick around to see how he responds to the newest replies.

Jegs2, can't blam ya, he is rather stupid, relying now on insults to win.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2004-07-02 09:16pm

spikenigma is funny, he has ignored my reply to his points twice now. I was expecting a nice short exchange of fire, but got nothing for my troubles. How disappointing.

FYI, im Light Soldier over there.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-02 09:45pm

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:spikenigma is funny, he has ignored my reply to his points twice now. I was expecting a nice short exchange of fire, but got nothing for my troubles. How disappointing.

FYI, im Light Soldier over there.

Well all I can tell ya is don't expect a reply any time soon. Hell I am still waiting.