Enterprise E at Geonosis

[Darth Wong]

How does that change the fact that other shots were visibly blasting right through the hull?

[Crown]

How does that change the fact that other shots were visibly blasting right through the hull?

Well that was going to be my next point. Besides, the last pic I posted is what brought the core ship down anyway (drilled right through, or hit a critical system perhaps?), so ...

[Crown]

Downloaded a new screencap program.

http://hometown.aol.com/doomsphere/geonosis1.jpg

Um, the two top ones look like they are going directly in (especially the one on the right, but the left is a little hard to tell), the other two are hitting the outised ... damage difference appears to be negligable.

[Metrion Cascade]

How does that change the fact that other shots were visibly blasting right through the hull?

Well that was going to be my next point. Besides, the last pic I posted is what brought the core ship down anyway (drilled right through, or hit a critical system perhaps?), so ...

You have no way to prove that. That it happened at the same time doesn't mean damage from one of the earlier shots couldn't be the cause of the coreship crashing.

[Crown]

How does that change the fact that other shots were visibly blasting right through the hull?

Well that was going to be my next point. Besides, the last pic I posted is what brought the core ship down anyway (drilled right through, or hit a critical system perhaps?), so ...

You have no way to prove that. That it happened at the same time doesn't mean damage from one of the earlier shots couldn't be the cause of the coreship crashing.

True. BUT HOW DOES THIS CHANGE THE FACT THAT OTHER SHOTS WERE VISIBLY BLASTING RIGHT THROUGH THE HULL? (to quote Mike)

And while I may not be able to 'prove' conclusively that this was the one that brought it down, the fact that this caused the larges visilble damage (largest cut from one end to the other), is nowhere near the freaking landing gear and is quite obviously on the hull, kind of makes your point about 'going directly into the landing bays and by-passing the hull' moot, no?

[Connor MacLeod]

If that was the case, the TIE fighter "shield" example will no longer be valid, as we notice both flashes from near misses, as well as direct hits which destroy the TIE fighter.

Shields have a volumetric aspect to them, like any "force field" (gravity and magnetism operate in three dimensions, after all.) This has nothign to do with the "strength" of the shield and its impact on the speed with which splintering/decay of the impacting bolt occurs.

Hell, you got it backwards. Rapid splintering is so far, the most verifable way of proving the presence of shields, as it is the by far, most common noticed effect. Even the hits on LAAT had splintering whereas no bright flashes were seen.

What I was talking about is that if a shield is sufficiently strong, all we will see is a bright flash without any noticble or obvious splintering - a stronger shield will obviously acceelerate the rate at which the decay/splintering process occurs - possibly causing it to occur quickly enough to appear as only a bright "flash" rather than showing any noticble splintering. In fact, there are a substantial number of incidents where no splintering occurs at all - and even some that do not involve shield interactions whatsoever, even though the bolt clearly impacts - as I already pointed out before.

In any case, the absence/presence of splintering effects does not disprove shielding anyhow (the bolt/beam is invisible, remember? The only visible part is residual decay of the particles into visible light, which more often than not represents a TINY fraction of the overall energy content of the beam. A vast majority of the splintering is likely to be invisible - in fact, as I have already pointed out and you did not address, there are examples of bolts impacting that did NOT produce flashes or any obvious "shield interaction", yet we know frfrom flashes that DID occur that shield interactions DID occur - the Tantive IV firing on the Devatator, and TIEs chasing the Falcon are two such examples. That would suggest that not every impact is going to neccesarily produce a shield interaction, much less a predictable one.)

This however, was NOT seen in the Coreship.

So you claim... supposedly. But all the evidence you present is an opinion to back it up.

That GLOW you mentioned, looks more likely to be the SPHAT melting away starship armour rather than the more common shield flare.

Like I said, based totally and apparently upon your opinion alone. Niiice.

While this is a better argument as the SPHAT blast looks dramatically different, may I remind you that Ion cannons, purple blobs of unknown type had shield interference before?

So? We've seen flashes frrom physical impacts (starfighter collisions with capital ships in ROTJ) as well, so what does thsi actually prove? I never claimed they were ion cannons or physical projectiles either. At best, all this might indicate is that different weapons produce different interaction effects - which is not inconsistent with what I stated.

Then where is the bolt splintering, congealing or any of the other shield interactions?

There you go again assuming that any and every bolt striking something SHOULD demonstrate shield interactions. I guess SW shields are full of holes in random places now, huh?

That's the same kind of argument that SB pulled to say Coreships don't have the acceleration values in ICS.

Bull-fucking-shit. The acceleration calcs for the ICS are for open space, and moreover are for the ion engines. I didn't see any ion exhuast from the core ships (gee, do you think they might have been using repulsors?) And in any case, if you didnt notice top atmospheric speed is generally FAR below the acceleration value given in it. Care to invent another improper analogies?

A fighter taking off from a runway is not at its maximum thrust, and for most types, aren't at their max acceleration. They also do not take off with weapons armed and ready, nor with targeting radars engaged.

They were already minutes into the battle when ships were taking off (hell, ships were taking off before we saw the SPHA-Ts firing). Second, there are Republic ships in ORBIT around the planet - don't you think that they would want shields raised to prevent that? Secondly, were not those Core ships being used to load the Battleships with freshly-produced ground forces, which means they'd have to be making multiple trips - Kind of silly to assume they would deliberately shut down the ENTIRE ship when they just have to restart it again, don't you think? Third, provide me evidence of starship shields that take minutes to "activate" (Just to remind you, Needa ordered the shields raised just before the supposed collison of the Falcon.) Fourth, a fighter's weapons and engines are not exactly comparable to the weapons and engines on a core ship (since they aren't taking off from runways, and they have repulsors and turreted weapons. I can't believe you'd actually suggest that a fighter IS capable of effectively using its armaments while still on the ground!) Last, even granting you your dubious analogy, the only point you ar emaking is to suggest that "shields were not at full strength yet".

Furthermore, this is an unplanned scramble, without the time for preflight checks, warm-ups and all the other neccesities available. What say you they were unable to power up the shields and decided to take to flight first, as the main drive powered on first?

For one thing, because they would have to know there are fucking STARSHIPS in orbit waiting for them! You don't think they'd notice and shoot down an unshielded ship lifting off from the planet's surface?? Secondly, shields would make it harder for the Repulbic forces to damage or disable the launching ships, thus giving them more time to make their launch preparations. Third, I'm still waiting on that evidence that shields take god-awful long to power up and activate, since we have obvious CANON and official examples that suggest shield activation, even for capital ships, can occur very quickly. Yeah, there clearly are NO reasons why they should even bother with shields.

The novelisation also had the statement that the ships were too heavily armoured for LAAT rockets, although the way its presented appears to suggest that the LAAT were targeting the fuel and power facillities that Anakin destroyed. Nevertheless, if the attack corresponds to Obiwan orders to attack those Federation starships, then again, no shield interaction was observed.

1.) rockets are projectile weapons. Different from a beam weapon.

2.) The ANH novelization describes ST armor as having "shielding", and the ROTJ novelization describes Imperial warship as being more heavily "armored" than Rebel oens, I guess we should assume that they're literal translations too, huh?

3.) Explain how incidents at one point in the battle neccesarily influence events at a later point, much less how this applies uniformly based off of a single incident.

Furthermore, note my arguments. The arguments is against the Coreship ejecta being too weak to signify a 200 GT event. Bleedthrough damage has traditionally resulted in the splintering of above said bolt. This held true for TESB and ANH, why isn't this true now?

1.) I like how you insist I should pay attention to your arguments when you clearly ignored a number of key points in my own.

2.) I've never made a specific claim as to just HOW powerful they are (yet). I'm also a bit curious as to what evidence about this so called "ejecta" is based upon.

3.) What bleedthrough? You mean the instantaneous dissipation capacity?

[Connor MacLeod]

According to ITW: AOTC, IIRC, the Core ship shot down in the movie had its repuslor engines hit, which malfunctioned and created a tractor-beam effect, which accelerated the rate of descent. Since, IIRC, the ship was still lifting up while being fired on by the SPHA-Ts, I would consider it rather unlikely that the initial shot triggered some sort of delayed malfunction.

[PainRack]

Shields have a volumetric aspect to them, like any "force field" (gravity and magnetism operate in three dimensions, after all.) This has nothign to do with the "strength" of the shield and its impact on the speed with which splintering/decay of the impacting bolt occurs.

I was referring to the statement that flash occurs when a weak bolt hits a stronger shield. The TIE example obviously disprove that statement.

What I was talking about is that if a shield is sufficiently strong, all we will see is a bright flash without any noticble or obvious splintering - a stronger shield will obviously acceelerate the rate at which the decay/splintering process occurs - possibly causing it to occur quickly enough to appear as only a bright "flash" rather than showing any noticble splintering. In fact, there are a substantial number of incidents where no splintering occurs at all - and even some that do not involve shield interactions whatsoever, even though the bolt clearly impacts - as I already pointed out before.

Except the argument here is to show that shield interaction did take place. Try and remember something, IIRC, there are only 3 incidents where shots occur, a logical hit should had happened but no visibile shield interaction occurs(ignoring AOTC).
However, there has never been a single incident where damage occurs, no visible shield interaction occurs and yet, we have someone arguing that there was a shield up.

In any case, the absence/presence of splintering effects does not disprove shielding anyhow (the bolt/beam is invisible, remember? The only visible part is residual decay of the particles into visible light, which more often than not represents a TINY fraction of the overall energy content of the beam. A vast majority of the splintering is likely to be invisible - in fact, as I have already pointed out and you did not address, there are examples of bolts impacting that did NOT produce flashes or any obvious "shield interaction", yet we know frfrom flashes that DID occur that shield interactions DID occur - the Tantive IV firing on the Devatator, and TIEs chasing the Falcon are two such examples. That would suggest that not every impact is going to neccesarily produce a shield interaction, much less a predictable one.)

However, it will be up to you to prove that there was a shield present, even though we see no evidence of its presence at all.
We see the ship being damaged, we do not see any shield interactions, so, where is the evidence to suggest that there was any shield on at all?

So you claim... supposedly. But all the evidence you present is an opinion to back it up.

I didn't even have to make a screencap. Its already here. Do you see the typical white shield flare?

Like I said, based totally and apparently upon your opinion alone. Niiice.

So, explain to me how the glow of a shield flare continues after the beam dissipates, even expands until it engulfs the strut? and it just so nicely concides with the visible destruction of said strut?

So? We've seen flashes frrom physical impacts (starfighter collisions with capital ships in ROTJ) as well, so what does thsi actually prove? I never claimed they were ion cannons or physical projectiles either. At best, all this might indicate is that different weapons produce different interaction effects - which is not inconsistent with what I stated.

And I do accept this argument. However, where is the evidence for the shield being up? Don't you see the circular logic?
SPHAT >>>> 200GT, so, Coreship must have shield up. Why must the Core shield be up? Because SPHAT >>>>> 200 GT.

Bull-fucking-shit. The acceleration calcs for the ICS are for open space, and moreover are for the ion engines. I didn't see any ion exhuast from the core ships (gee, do you think they might have been using repulsors?) And in any case, if you didnt notice top atmospheric speed is generally FAR below the acceleration value given in it. Care to invent another improper analogies?

On the contary, its perfectly good, because, you're using the same approach as Peregrine and the Darkstar cadre at SB. The book values for ICS says that there is this acceleration value, so, the acceleration value must apply at all times.
In your case, its the book value shows that heavy turbolaser for Accalamator= 200GT,so SPHAT = or > 200GT, so, Coreship must have shield.
I'm asking for evidence that a=b=c.
If you didn't notice, I was trying to say that the above approach is a wrong way to debate.

They were already minutes into the battle when ships were taking off (hell, ships were taking off before we saw the SPHA-Ts firing). Second, there are Republic ships in ORBIT around the planet - don't you think that they would want shields raised to prevent that? Secondly, were not those Core ships being used to load the Battleships with freshly-produced ground forces, which means they'd have to be making multiple trips - Kind of silly to assume they would deliberately shut down the ENTIRE ship when they just have to restart it again, don't you think? Third, provide me evidence of starship shields that take minutes to "activate" (Just to remind you, Needa ordered the shields raised just before the supposed collison of the Falcon.) Fourth, a fighter's weapons and engines are not exactly comparable to the weapons and engines on a core ship (since they aren't taking off from runways, and they have repulsors and turreted weapons. I can't believe you'd actually suggest that a fighter IS capable of effectively using its armaments while still on the ground!) Last, even granting you your dubious analogy, the only point you ar emaking is to suggest that "shields were not at full strength yet".

On the contary, you have only two evidence for shields being present.
That SPHAT = 200GT, based on a dubious quote from the databank that does not make sense, and that the ship must have its shields on in an combat situation.
I just gave you the reason why the shields weren't on. We know that the Federation was in a hurry to lift ship. Assuming that the Federation lift-off procedures is equivalent to modern day ship/plane equivalents, which interestingly, is backed up by quotes like Heir to the Empire, Young Jedi Knight series and so on and forth which state that even the MF short checklist require minutes to complete and initalise, then we get a good reason why the ships didn't have shields upon liftoff.

Obviously, as per safety regs, the ships had been defuelled and were in a cold start. The need to raise ship quickly, while loading battledroid armies as well as other Federation personnel mean that preflight start-up was not complete, the main drive came online before the shields did and the captain decided to take off before his LZ was overrun, trusting that the shields would come online before he ran through the Republic blockade.

Now, to raise your concerns.
1. The coreships had not made a trip yet, the Federation agreement to join the Seperatists hinged on the death of Amidala, and was made hours prior to the battle of Geonosis.

2. The ships drive came online first, so, they decided to prep for liftoff before their LZ was overrun by Republic troops.

3. They were expecting their shields to initalise before they hit the blockade. This is not unusual, considering that Han Solo in the EU had done this before, getting into space and trusting that the remaining systems would initalise before he needs them.

4. We saw that Anakin fighter, shield generator overheat, and it required a few minutes to cool off and regenerate. This is as opposed to Captain Needa whoose shields were presumably in a stand-by mode. Anakin example is more indicative of the Federation, as the Federation ships were presumably in a cold-start. Jango Fett is also another example, his weapons system were not fully initalised, thus, his blaster cannon pack ran dry in the middle of the fight with Obiwan after a few shots, similarly, his shields was presumably not active, as Obiwan attached a beacon to his ship after he took off.

1.) rockets are projectile weapons. Different from a beam weapon.

But again, no shield interaction onscreen. The rockets exploded upon contact with the ship, skin-tight particle shields is not backed up by heavily armoured statement.

2.) The ANH novelization describes ST armor as having "shielding", and the ROTJ novelization describes Imperial warship as being more heavily "armored" than Rebel oens, I guess we should assume that they're literal translations too, huh?

They are for all accounts, yes. ISDs are more heavily armoured than the Mon Cal cruisers, much less the Frigates and other lesser vessels brought into battle.

3.) Explain how incidents at one point in the battle neccesarily influence events at a later point, much less how this applies uniformly based off of a single incident.

This is proof that minutes before the SPHAT attack(again, if the novelisation accords to Obiwan orders to attack those federation starships and ignoring the possibility of jump cut scene techniques), the Coreships were not shielded.

2.) I've never made a specific claim as to just HOW powerful they are (yet). I'm also a bit curious as to what evidence about this so called "ejecta" is based upon.

Point noted, so, let's stick with shields, should we? My personal belief that its not >> 200 GT is a seperate point.

3.) What bleedthrough? You mean the instantaneous dissipation capacity?

In ANH, we saw Darth Vader TIE shots penetrate the X-wing shielding and damage R2D2, and cause carbon scoring. Other shots like Jek Porkins also demonstrated bleedthrough damage, where his electrical and navigation components were damaged by passing through an unknown cloud, leaving him easy prey for the turbolasers(as per ANH novelisation) In TESB, we saw components catch on fire, as well as damage to the deflector generators.

[Crayz9000]

Bull-fucking-shit. The acceleration calcs for the ICS are for open space, and moreover are for the ion engines. I didn't see any ion exhuast from the core ships (gee, do you think they might have been using repulsors?) And in any case, if you didnt notice top atmospheric speed is generally FAR below the acceleration value given in it. Care to invent another improper analogies?

On the contary, its perfectly good, because, you're using the same approach as Peregrine and the Darkstar cadre at SB. The book values for ICS says that there is this acceleration value, so, the acceleration value must apply at all times.
In your case, its the book value shows that heavy turbolaser for Accalamator= 200GT,so SPHAT = or > 200GT, so, Coreship must have shield.
I'm asking for evidence that a=b=c.
If you didn't notice, I was trying to say that the above approach is a wrong way to debate.

I don't have the ICS (gasp -- yeah, I just don't have much money to throw around), but if it says that the acceleration figures are for the ion engines, and the coreships were lifting off on repulsors -- two totally different propulsion systems -- I don't think those acceleration figures would apply...

[Connor MacLeod]

I was referring to the statement that flash occurs when a weak bolt hits a stronger shield. The TIE example obviously disprove that statement.

How does it disprove that particular claim, exactly?

Except the argument here is to show that shield interaction did take place. Try and remember something, IIRC, there are only 3 incidents where shots occur, a logical hit should had happened but no visibile shield interaction occurs(ignoring AOTC).

There are more than that actually.. in TESB there is a scene just after Luke destroys a walker where an AT-At is firing on fleeing grgound troops.. one bolt hits the ground without any visible effect (another hits so close that the man is not harmed or even sent flying.. he just stumbles for some more steps before falling) and in ROTJ there are shots from TIE or Rebel fighters that hit capital ships without any distinct flash (though others do produce them,. as well as other kinds of impacts.) - such as just after Lando orders them to "draw fire away from the cruisers", before and after Lando says "Thy're heading for the Medical Frigate", and lastly several such shots in the point-blank firing between a Nebulon-B frigate and either an ISD or the Executor (several of the Executor shots "hit" without creating obvious shield interactions, but others do.), and the one ISD that gets destroyed by a Mon Cal heavy TL shot (no shield interaction, but the bolt that hits destrroys the ship seconds later... when Ackbar is ordering all fire concentrated on the Executor.)

In any case, sincee when did "Subjective dismissal of visual evidence" become part of Suspension of Disbelief? Simply saying "we have only a certain number of examples" does not invalidate the observed behavioru (IE damage before contact, bolts "bouncing" off of the ground inside the Gungan shield in TPM, disappearing bolts in the ANH Falcon/TIE fight, the energy bolt passing harmlessly through an A-wing in ROTJ, etc.)

On a further note, I might point out that it should be QUITE possible for their to be beam/shield penetration with minimal effects (especially at a distance of kilometers, which might make it impossible to see visible effects like splintering if the distance is great enough.). See, if the beam is powerful enough or coherent enough, the shield will attenuate the beam (you might see some fragmenting or splintering) but it will not splinter much (if at all). (A subject that to my knowledge has been extensively discussed, especially based on onscreen analysis.)

As an example of the above, consider the superlaser beam that destroyed the Liberty in ROTJ versus the one that strikes Alderaan. Both involve strikes with the same kind of weapon at shielded targets, yet both do not produce the same effects. Of course, you also ignored the poitn I made about the invisible nature of the beam, which also factors into the splintering effects (if the beam itself is largely invisible, the splinter bolts should be unless they decay into visible light.) A Superlaser is designed for destroying entire planets - using it against capital ships is clearly overkill (as the beam carries enough energy to VAPORIZE an entire warship in a fraction of a second, regardless of shields) - further supported by Ackbar's claims about "firepower of that magnitude.") Hence, we see very little to no shield interaction when the beam penetrates. However, a planetary shield (like Alderaan's) is vastly more powerful - it clearly withstands the shield for a good fraction of a second - and hence we do see splintering effects.

However, there has never been a single incident where damage occurs, no visible shield interaction occurs and yet, we have someone arguing that there was a shield up.

Sure there are. The Queen's Yacht in TPM (when the Shield Generator takes damage), and the Droidekas fired upon by Anakin's Naboo Fighter. The ROTJ Superlaser destroying the Liberty also counts (no shield interaction, yet it completely vaporizes the warship.) I also believe Obi-Wan's fighter in AOTC also qualifies when it is damaged by laser-fire by Jango Fett (we see an explosion and some sparks, but that's it.) And snowspeeder/walker bolts hitting the snow in TESB (unless you want to argue that the planetary shields protecting hoth was not protecting the ground.)

However, it will be up to you to prove that there was a shield present, even though we see no evidence of its presence at all. We see the ship being damaged, we do not see any shield interactions, so, where is the evidence to suggest that there was any shield on at all?

"With powerful energy shields on their starships, neither side can overwhelm the other using their ship-mounted cannons; moreover indiscrimintate fire by Republic anti-starship weapons would endanger the droid facilities that it must capture if it hopes to uncover the secrets of the Separatist conspiracy."

If the shields were "down" as you claim, why did not the Republic ships use precision fire from their anti ship weapons to disable the fleeing vessels almost immediately (particularily if you believe some of the claims about how strong the Core ship's hulls must be!). For that matter, the gunships should have been able to disable the Core ships if any of that were true (they carry at least 100 kt rockets - and judging by the size comparisons of the Slave-1 missiles with the LAAT's missiles, the gunship could quite believably carry megaton-range payloads. The fact that the gunships couldn't knock out the LAAT's - and according to ITW book there were over 1600 of them present at Geonosis - this says something.)

I didn't even have to make a screencap. Its already here. Do you see the typical white shield flare?

So you answer specific references with... more generalizations. (You notice I didnt ask for screen caps. Specific examples where one could look for themselves would work as well.) Its becoming a rather interesting trend in this debate where I am the one required to provide all the evidence and you provide absolutely nothing to back your own claims.

So, explain to me how the glow of a shield flare continues after the beam dissipates, even expands until it engulfs the strut? and it just so nicely concides with the visible destruction of said strut?

Who says it continues to glow after the fact? Its obvious some fireballs/explosions do occur (there was system damage, after all), and some of the examples I've cited above include examples where explosive/shield interaction effects can look quite similar. I'm just questioniing how you insist there is NO shield interaction whatsoever, aside from your assumption that what we see isn't a shield interaction. (even though I have rather thoroughly noted that there is a vast disparity in what sorts of interactions could occur.) Especially since we're viewing the Core ship from kilometers up/away from the SPHA-Ts (you know, sort of like how the distance in ROTJ is so great that we don't see TLS firing?)

And I do accept this argument. However, where is the evidence for the shield being up? Don't you see the circular logic?

What circular logic, exactly? Its fairly simple. They're in a fucking battle zone and they're running away. If the shields were down, then why didn't the Acclamators (or the gunships for that matter) take out the Core ships on their own? ITW:AOTC supports me on this. It doesn't support you. All you can scream is that "we didn't see shield interactions" and insist this disproves my point, even though you fail to address the whole underlying logic as to WHY the shields should and would be up!

No, we know the shield is up because: a.) They're in the middle of a fucking battle and running away (with capital ships present both on the ground and in orbit.) b.) We know they have shields and there is NO GOOD REASON as to why they should be down (might as well claim that AOTC disproves the notion they even *have* shields, for all your logic.) c.) if the shields were down, nothign would prevent the Republic forces from using their ship-mounted weapons or the gunships from taking down the Core ships. d.) We know shield activation does not take long to achieve (The Avenger in TESB, the Queen's Yacht in TPM, etc.) Your theory hasn't addressed any of this adequately.

On the contary, its perfectly good, because, you're using the same approach as Peregrine and the Darkstar cadre at SB. The book values for ICS says that there is this acceleration value, so, the acceleration value must apply at all times.

Oh yes, because I have not given any valid reasons whatsoever for the shield to be up (or evidence, for that matter.)

In your case, its the book value shows that heavy turbolaser for Accalamator= 200GT,so SPHAT = or > 200GT, so, Coreship must have shield.
I'm asking for evidence that a=b=c.

You're demanding I refute your speculation. Even when I do provide the evidence, you insist I *still* haven't proven my point.

If you didn't notice, I was trying to say that the above approach is a wrong way to debate.

You used an improper analogy, since you're basically arguing that they would have no reason whatsoever to want to or bother TRYING to activate a shield in the middle of a battle (in particular, knowing that there are starships present that have the firepower to DISABLE them if they did not.) On top of this, I have presented further evidence which SUBSTANTIATES my position, which you are no doubt going to dismiss as "irrelevant". And yet, you still insist I am "debating improperly." Wow, I just love the logic in all that.

On the contary, you have only two evidence for shields being present.

Quite more than that, actually. Though I doubt you will ever acknowledge it.

That SPHAT = 200GT, based on a dubious quote from the databank that does not make sense, and that the ship must have its shields on in an combat situation.

Alright, Get this through your skull. At no point have I ever stated what I believe the actual yield of the SPHA-T is (I've heard some very reasonable arguments for a high end yield) - I was simply pointing otu that shields would logically be active at this point, and would thus contribute to the absence of any obvious atmospheric effects. You insisted that we SAW no interactions, and thus no shield could have been active (and have not provided any proof to back this up - so far I have been the only one to provide evidence of ANY sort.). Moreover, I do not recall making any refernece to the databank's reference at all (and which has nothing to do with the issue of "where the energy is supposed to have gone.")

I just gave you the reason why the shields weren't on. We know that the Federation was in a hurry to lift ship. Assuming that the Federation lift-off procedures is equivalent to modern day ship/plane equivalents, which interestingly, is backed up by quotes like Heir to the Empire, Young Jedi Knight series and so on and forth which state that even the MF short checklist require minutes to complete and initalise, then we get a good reason why the ships didn't have shields upon liftoff.

Right.. thats why the Queen's Yacht took minutes to prepare and lift off?

Notice that this also relies on your assumption that the Core ships were totally shut down, and ignores the references I made to rapid shield activation.

Obviously, as per safety regs, the ships had been defuelled and were in a cold start. The need to raise ship quickly, while loading battledroid armies as well as other Federation personnel mean that preflight start-up was not complete, the main drive came online before the shields did and the captain decided to take off before his LZ was overrun, trusting that the shields would come online before he ran through the Republic blockade.

Now, to raise your concerns.
1. The coreships had not made a trip yet, the Federation agreement to join the Seperatists hinged on the death of Amidala, and was made hours prior to the battle of Geonosis.

2. The ships drive came online first, so, they decided to prep for liftoff before their LZ was overrun by Republic troops.

3. They were expecting their shields to initalise before they hit the blockade. This is not unusual, considering that Han Solo in the EU had done this before, getting into space and trusting that the remaining systems would initalise before he needs them.

4. We saw that Anakin fighter, shield generator overheat, and it required a few minutes to cool off and regenerate. This is as opposed to Captain Needa whoose shields were presumably in a stand-by mode. Anakin example is more indicative of the Federation, as the Federation ships were presumably in a cold-start. Jango Fett is also another example, his weapons system were not fully initalised, thus, his blaster cannon pack ran dry in the middle of the fight with Obiwan after a few shots, similarly, his shields was presumably not active, as Obiwan attached a beacon to his ship after he took off.

But again, no shield interaction onscreen. The rockets exploded upon contact with the ship, skin-tight particle shields is not backed up by heavily armoured statement.

So apparently, you can't have ray shielding active without having the particle shielding ALSO active? Did you not watch ANH? (Moreover, if this were true, explain to me the absence of a visible shield around the falcon in TESB.) Attempting to disprove the existence of shielding by saying that one kind of weapon wasn't blocked (and we know different kinds of shield exist to affect different kinds of weapons, no less) is ludicrous.

They are for all accounts, yes. ISDs are more heavily armoured than the Mon Cal cruisers, much less the Frigates and other lesser vessels brought into battle.

Makes no mention of shielding in the reference though. I guess we should assume they didn't exist or weren't up. I also like how you ignored my reference to ST armor as having "shielding" also.

This is proof that minutes before the SPHAT attack(again, if the novelisation accords to Obiwan orders to attack those federation starships and ignoring the possibility of jump cut scene techniques), the Coreships were not shielded.

So you're assuming that the SPHA-T's attacked the VERY SAME starship that Obi-Wan's gunship did?? (I might add that according to ITW:AOTC IIRC, there were at least two different locations that had Core shisp present and SPHAT-s set up. No reason to believe they are the same group of ships, or even the same ship!) And this is still assuming your "The core ships were TOTALLY shut down and couldn't possibly raise their shields" assumption is in fact valid (and that you can explain why the Republic forces didnt use their own starship armaments to shoot them down)

In ANH, we saw Darth Vader TIE shots penetrate the X-wing shielding and damage R2D2, and cause carbon scoring. Other shots like Jek Porkins also demonstrated bleedthrough damage, where his electrical and navigation components were damaged by passing through an unknown cloud, leaving him easy prey for the turbolasers(as per ANH novelisation) In TESB, we saw components catch on fire, as well as damage to the deflector generators.

So? How is this supposed to magically refute my entire argument? Are you going to start claiming "movie canon overrides all other evidence" now, too?

[PainRack]

How does it disprove that particular claim, exactly?

Because, the bolt from the MF guns were stronger than the TIE shield. Ahem, run through the logic again, you said, flash only occurs when weak shot vs stronger shield. That doesn't hold because we seen flashes occur, even though the TIE fighter was destroyed.

There are more than that actually.. in TESB there is a scene just after Luke destroys a walker where an AT-At is firing on fleeing grgound troops.. one bolt hits the ground without any visible effect (another hits so close that the man is not harmed or even sent flying.. he just stumbles for some more steps before falling) and in ROTJ there are shots from TIE or Rebel fighters that hit capital ships without any distinct flash (though others do produce them,. as well as other kinds of impacts.) - such as just after Lando orders them to "draw fire away from the cruisers", before and after Lando says "Thy're heading for the Medical Frigate", and lastly several such shots in the point-blank firing between a Nebulon-B frigate and either an ISD or the Executor (several of the Executor shots "hit" without creating obvious shield interactions, but others do.), and the one ISD that gets destroyed by a Mon Cal heavy TL shot (no shield interaction, but the bolt that hits destrroys the ship seconds later... when Ackbar is ordering all fire concentrated on the Executor.)

Okay, I never included ground shots in my statement and I apologise for that.

As for ROTJ, where? I only recall 1 scene where a Y-wing and an X-wing were in the frame together, where shots were seen hitting an ISD but no shield interaction was seen at all.

The one ISD that gets destroyed by a Mon Cal shot was supposed to had its shields depleted.

In any case, sincee when did "Subjective dismissal of visual evidence" become part of Suspension of Disbelief? Simply saying "we have only a certain number of examples" does not invalidate the observed behavioru (IE damage before contact, bolts "bouncing" off of the ground inside the Gungan shield in TPM, disappearing bolts in the ANH Falcon/TIE fight, the energy bolt passing harmlessly through an A-wing in ROTJ, etc.)

I'm not seeking dismissal of visual evidence nor suspension of disbelief. I'm asking for evidence of there being a god damn shield, other than the "There should be shield up" logic, which is not backed up by any fact in canon nor explicitly stated in the EU.

On a further note, I might point out that it should be QUITE possible for their to be beam/shield penetration with minimal effects (especially at a distance of kilometers, which might make it impossible to see visible effects like splintering if the distance is great enough.). See, if the beam is powerful enough or coherent enough, the shield will attenuate the beam (you might see some fragmenting or splintering) but it will not splinter much (if at all). (A subject that to my knowledge has been extensively discussed, especially based on onscreen analysis.)

No doubt about it. Shield dynamics is the most convoluted subject of SW ever, and I hardly even dare to step into that arena. However, I'm asking for there being evidence for shields? Where is that evidence?

As an example of the above, consider the superlaser beam that destroyed the Liberty in ROTJ versus the one that strikes Alderaan. Both involve strikes with the same kind of weapon at shielded targets, yet both do not produce the same effects. Of course, you also ignored the poitn I made about the invisible nature of the beam, which also factors into the splintering effects (if the beam itself is largely invisible, the splinter bolts should be unless they decay into visible light.) A Superlaser is designed for destroying entire planets - using it against capital ships is clearly overkill (as the beam carries enough energy to VAPORIZE an entire warship in a fraction of a second, regardless of shields) - further supported by Ackbar's claims about "firepower of that magnitude.") Hence, we see very little to no shield interaction when the beam penetrates. However, a planetary shield (like Alderaan's) is vastly more powerful - it clearly withstands the shield for a good fraction of a second - and hence we do see splintering effects.

Arguing that 8 SPHAT blasts, is overkill against a transport is absurd, especially taking note of the novelisation where the overworked Accalamators were destroying the Federation fleet in space easily.

Indeed, the only possible way to rationalise it is that SPHAT are >>>>200 GT, or there were no shields or partial shielding up.

Sure there are. The Queen's Yacht in TPM (when the Shield Generator takes damage),

Plenty of off-screen shtos.

and the Droidekas fired upon by Anakin's Naboo Fighter.

If you notice, there was shield disruption. We saw Saxton airglow was disrupted when the shots penetrated.

The ROTJ Superlaser destroying the Liberty also counts (no shield interaction, yet it completely vaporizes the warship.)

Granted, I did not include the superlaser in my statement.

I also believe Obi-Wan's fighter in AOTC also qualifies when it is damaged by laser-fire by Jango Fett (we see an explosion and some sparks, but that's it.)
Except that the overall incident had shield interactions

And snowspeeder/walker bolts hitting the snow in TESB (unless you want to argue that the planetary shields protecting hoth was not protecting the ground.)

Granted, I did not include the snowspeeder in my statement.

"With powerful energy shields on their starships, neither side can overwhelm the other using their ship-mounted cannons; moreover indiscrimintate fire by Republic anti-starship weapons would endanger the droid facilities that it must capture if it hopes to uncover the secrets of the Separatist conspiracy."

This only shows that yes, the coreships had shields.

If the shields were "down" as you claim, why did not the Republic ships use precision fire from their anti ship weapons to disable the fleeing vessels almost immediately (particularily if you believe some of the claims about how strong the Core ship's hulls must be!). For that matter, the gunships should have been able to disable the Core ships if any of that were true (they carry at least 100 kt rockets - and judging by the size comparisons of the Slave-1 missiles with the LAAT's missiles, the gunship could quite believably carry megaton-range payloads. The fact that the gunships couldn't knock out the LAAT's - and according to ITW book there were over 1600 of them present at Geonosis - this says something.)

Except we know from the novelisation( using above caveats) that the Coreships hull were too heavily armoured for the LAAT rockets to work,(similar perhaps to the proton torpedo, concussion missile penetration of ROTJ reactor?)

As for the first, Accalamators had been extremely overworked. We know that at least 2 Accalamators were on the surface of the planet, disgorging troops at least. These troops were critical in rescuing Anakin, Obiwan and Amidala, who were brought forward to the assembly area. This assembly area was rather close to the Federation LZ, if the Accalamators had attacked the Coreships, they would had risked exposing the unprotected Jedi, or worse, Amidala to the aftermath of such an attack.

Furthermore, we know from ITW as well as ICS that the Accalamators, LAATs were heavily involved in supressing Genosis defences and enforcing a naval blockade(novelisation). This ranged from destroying Geonosian fighters, attacking enemy airfields and orbital guns installations, the Federation ships in space and so on and forth. Its entirely possible that the Coreships were so low on the pirority list that the overtaxed Accalamators had not reached them in time yet.

So you answer specific references with... more generalizations. (You notice I didnt ask for screen caps. Specific examples where one could look for themselves would work as well.) Its becoming a rather interesting trend in this debate where I am the one required to provide all the evidence and you provide absolutely nothing to back your own claims.

With what? You're asking for evidence that there is NO shield flare. What do you want me to do? Its impossible to prove that no shield flare exists, save that all available screenshots do not have the characteristic shield flare as shown in ANH or TPM.

Who says it continues to glow after the fact? Its obvious some fireballs/explosions do occur (there was system damage, after all), and some of the examples I've cited above include examples where explosive/shield interaction effects can look quite similar. I'm just questioniing how you insist there is NO shield interaction whatsoever, aside from your assumption that what we see isn't a shield interaction. (even though I have rather thoroughly noted that there is a vast disparity in what sorts of interactions could occur.) Especially since we're viewing the Core ship from kilometers up/away from the SPHA-Ts (you know, sort of like how the distance in ROTJ is so great that we don't see TLS firing?)

So, the kilometers away of Tantive IV and Devastator produced visible shield flares, but a SPHAT firing upon a Coreship won't?

What circular logic, exactly? Its fairly simple. They're in a fucking battle zone and they're running away. If the shields were down, then why didn't the Acclamators (or the gunships for that matter) take out the Core ships on their own? ITW:AOTC supports me on this. It doesn't support you. All you can scream is that "we didn't see shield interactions" and insist this disproves my point, even though you fail to address the whole underlying logic as to WHY the shields should and would be up!

I showed how the shields might not be up. We agreed to leave SPHAT firepower out of this discussion the last round.
What else do you want? You have to show proof of shields being presence, either reduction in known damage, shield interaction or written evidence that the shields were on. Inside the Worlds of AOTC doesn't cut it.

We know shield activation does not take long to achieve (The Avenger in TESB, the Queen's Yacht in TPM, etc.) Your theory hasn't addressed any of this adequately.

Apples and Oranges Connor. The Avenger had its shields in standby mode, whereas the Core ships were in cold start. Furthermore, the novelisation nor the movie made any mention of the Queen Yacht lifting off without doing a preflight startup, the speed of its escape was measured from its liftoff to space, not from the starting of the ship engines to space.

You're demanding I refute your speculation. Even when I do provide the evidence, you insist I *still* haven't proven my point.

What fucking evidence? That there must be shields because there was a battle? If I was to apply this "There must be because it was a battle"to Endor, you would be screaming bloody murder.

You used an improper analogy, since you're basically arguing that they would have no reason whatsoever to want to or bother TRYING to activate a shield in the middle of a battle (in particular, knowing that there are starships present that have the firepower to DISABLE them if they did not.) On top of this, I have presented further evidence which SUBSTANTIATES my position, which you are no doubt going to dismiss as "irrelevant". And yet, you still insist I am "debating improperly." Wow, I just love the logic in all that.

Really? Circular logic that because there's a battle, there must be shields? Where is the evidence for the shield being present? The ITW only shows that the Coreships have shields, not evidence that the shields were on.

You insisted that we SAW no interactions, and thus no shield could have been active (and have not provided any proof to back this up - so far I have been the only one to provide evidence of ANY sort.).

And how do I back up there being no shield interaction, other than showing there isn't any shield interaction?

Right.. thats why the Queen's Yacht took minutes to prepare and lift off?

Except you can't prove that it didn't. Furthermore, the Yacht is different from a freighter.

Notice that this also relies on your assumption that the Core ships were totally shut down, and ignores the references I made to rapid shield activation.

A rather valid assumption. The Core ships have no reason to be active, and safety would had prompted them to shut down and defuel the craft. We used this exact same argument for Jango Fett, remember?
Rapid shield activation for whom? Avenger, a ship that's presumably in standby status? As opposed to Anakin skywalker, whoose shield generators had overheated and required to be shut down and reactivated?

So apparently, you can't have ray shielding active without having the particle shielding ALSO active? Did you not watch ANH? (Moreover, if this were true, explain to me the absence of a visible shield around the falcon in TESB.) Attempting to disprove the existence of shielding by saying that one kind of weapon wasn't blocked (and we know different kinds of shield exist to affect different kinds of weapons, no less) is ludicrous.

But its proof against your "there's a battle, shields must be on" theory, as well as against your LAAT can destroy unshielded coreship theory.

Clearly, there was no particle shielding on, despite the fact that the Coreship was in battle and in danger of being overrun, and LAAT 100KT rockets cannot penetrate the Coreship hull.

Makes no mention of shielding in the reference though. I guess we should assume they didn't exist or weren't up. I also like how you ignored my reference to ST armor as having "shielding" also.

Why not?
1. The statement is that ISD ships were more heavily armoured. So, its more heavily armoured, does it disprove or prove the question of shields? No. Does it touch upon shields? No. Can it be taken literally? Yes. Especially if you remember the EU made the Mon Cal shields more redundant than ISDs, thus suggesting that Mon Cal shielding is superior to ISD.

2. ST armour having shielding can and is already taken literally to mean particle and ray shield being skin tight, or permeating the armour totally. So, is your argument that it can't be taken literally false? Geez, both of us are already taking it literally. Look two pages back for your Coreship hull argument.

So you're assuming that the SPHA-T's attacked the VERY SAME starship that Obi-Wan's gunship did??

And of course, its just so happens that a single Coreship didn't have particle shields on whereas all the remaining ships do. Are you mad?

(I might add that according to ITW:AOTC IIRC, there were at least two different locations that had Core shisp present and SPHAT-s set up. No reason to believe they are the same group of ships, or even the same ship!)

Except we see Obiwan and gang attacking the same LZ as Yoda, especially if we include the storyline found in the Clone Wars X-box game.

And this is still assuming your "The core ships were TOTALLY shut down and couldn't possibly raise their shields" assumption is in fact valid (and that you can explain why the Republic forces didnt use their own starship armaments to shoot them down)

Then let me use your own argument against you one more time. According to the novelisation, the REpublic army was attacking across the entire Hemisphere, if not the planet, seeing that totally different terrain maps were being displayed on the command centre. The ICS also made note that the Republic were attacking airfields, command installations and IOW, supressing orbital defences installations. The novelisation also made note that the Republic was destroying the Federation transports in space, which were easy pickings for the Accalamators. The Galactic Battleground and Clone War X-box also suggest this.

The Coreships also had no reason to be on a standby status prior to the battle itself.Ergo, we assume they are not and has been shut down. This being standard procedure is backed up by Jango Fett Slave ship being in a shut down status.

So? How is this supposed to magically refute my entire argument? Are you going to start claiming "movie canon overrides all other evidence" now, too?

The whole point was supposed to argue that bleedthrough damage.( that I must now add a caveat) usually showed shield interaction when the shielded object was not destroyed by overwhelming firepower like the Death Star blast against the Liberty.

[Connor MacLeod]

Because, the bolt from the MF guns were stronger than the TIE shield. Ahem, run through the logic again, you said, flash only occurs when weak shot vs stronger shield. That doesn't hold because we seen flashes occur, even though the TIE fighter was destroyed.

How do you derive the fact the Falcon's guns being stronger than the TIE shields? Especially since it takes at least two (non-consecutive) shots to do that?

As for ROTJ, where? I only recall 1 scene where a Y-wing and an X-wing were in the frame together, where shots were seen hitting an ISD but no shield interaction was seen at all.

The first I mentioned is early in the battle, just after the ambush is sprung. The Falcon is skimming across one of the Mon Cal cruisers with TIEs chasing it.. just before it switches to Luke watching the battle from the Emperor's throne room.

The second occurs just after the Ewoks start fighting. "Red Three and Red two" are ordered to pull in. an A-wing is destroyed when chased across the surfac eof a winged Mon Cal cruiser by two TIEs, and is destroyed.

The third occurs as a TIE is chasing Wedge past the underside of another Mon Cal cruiser, and the TIE collides after firing some shots.

The one ISD that gets destroyed by a Mon Cal shot was supposed to had its shields depleted.

"Supposed to?" I recall no evidence indicating that they were. However, I will retract this one simply because its not vital to my argument.

I'm not seeking dismissal of visual evidence nor suspension of disbelief. I'm asking for evidence of there being a god damn shield, other than the "There should be shield up" logic, which is not backed up by any fact in canon nor explicitly stated in the EU.

Yes it is backed up by a canon statement (the ITW: AOTC), even though you deny this.

Arguing that 8 SPHAT blasts, is overkill against a transport is absurd, especially taking note of the novelisation where the overworked Accalamators were destroying the Federation fleet in space easily.

"Overworked Acclamators?" Care to point out this in the novelization to me? The only point I can note indicating the status of the battle is on page 340 of the AOTC novelization:

"Most of the Trade Federation ships inside the asteroid belt and immediately within the perimeter of the battle were troop carriers rather than battleships, and so the Republic was fast gaining the upper hand, as well."

It hardly sounds like they're "overworked" to me if they're gaining the upper hand quickly.

Oh and about the gunships.. "thousands" of Geonosian fighters. Even assuming all 1600 were deployed against orbital ships (an unlikely proposition) the fighters would maul the gunships in short order.

Add to that, we know that from the ITW book: there were only 12 Acclamators present at Geonosis, some of which were on the ground for a major part of the fight.

Earlier, assault ships made preemptive strikes against the Geonosian beak-wing facilities, leaving the fighters that remained unable to make headway against the Republic's orbital blockade.

That seems to indicate there was a blockade already in place, in addition to the fact the Republic ships DID have time to make preemptive strikes.

Moreover, we know from the ICS2 book that "thousands"of Geonosian fighters attacked the blockade, in addition to the hundreds of ships (including dozens of Core ships) escaped from Geonosis (which doesn't include the ships already in orbit. ITW indicates that there was a "fleet" of battleships in orbit awaiting loading of battle droids... at least sixty in number, based on the number of Core ships) Not only are oyu makign a ridiculous suggestion in that a mere dozen military transports (if not less) could establish and maintain a blockade of an entire planet against all that (remember the blockade of Naboo in TPM and how many ships it required?) you're ALSO suggesting that a mere dozen military transports were enough to send all those ships fleeing! You know, I would like to see some "proof" of these supposedly "overworked" Acclamators.

What's more, did it ever occur to you that an Acclamator according to the EP2 ICS can only hold 80 cargo and combat gunships, 48 AT-TEs, and 36 SPHA-Ts? According to the ITW book, they deployed 1600 combat gunships, 400 cargo gunships, 2,160 AT-TEs, and 100 SPHA-Ts, in addition to 192,000 troops. Now, they were carrying fewer SPHA-Ts than normal (about 20-25% the normal complement, I believe), but there was anywhere from 2-5x MORE gunships and walkers than 12 Acclamators should be able to carry! Are you seriously going ot start telling me that each Acclamator hauled hundreds of gunships and Walkers into battle apiece, in conflict with the canonical capacities?

This in fact proves they had more ships there - at least another dozen or so, if not several dozen. (Of course, I'm sure you'd try to suggest something like they were unarmed transports or freighters rather than warships of some sort - Even though such ships would be vulnerable to attack by the Separtist forces if unescorted - which would put even a FURTHER strain on the already unrealistic duties you have dumped on a measly dozen troop transports. Which means that either as escorts for transports or as direct transports themselves, they HAD other warships there.

And as the final nail in your ridiculous coffin, I would point out that according to the NEGV&V, the Acclamator's anti-starship weapons aren't that well suited to capital-ship combat, due to its specialized planetary-assault role (in fact, its this reason that dictates the importance of Acclamators needing an escort - the NEGV&V indicates that in later battles they are given battleship and starfighter escort support.) And yet you appear to insist that a dozen warships can easily defeat a numerically superior space force including ships that are vastly larger than the transports themselves and the support of thousands of starfighters, while maintaining an effective planetary blockade against fleeing warships. What's more, you actually seem to think this is the most effective approach they could have taken (even though grounded spaceships make much easier targets!)

Indeed, the only possible way to rationalise it is that SPHAT are >>>>200 GT, or there were no shields or partial shielding up.

So by your logic, the only way to "rationalize" the incident is to generate even more absurd conclusions than you already did? Yes, of course it makes sense for a mere dozen troop transports to threaten dozens of ships, even when its noted they have the "upper hand"!

Of course, I also like how you start to backpedal and insist there must be "partial" shields up (interesting, given that I pointed out already that I in no way indicated yield of the SPHAT, merely that shielding WAS active) now as well.

Sure there are. The Queen's Yacht in TPM (when the Shield Generator takes damage),

Plenty of off-screen shtos.
[/quote]

WTF does off-screen shots have to do with the fact that we saw no obvious shield interaction occur when the shield generator takes damage? Did they have the shields inactive directly around the shields or something??

If you notice, there was shield disruption. We saw Saxton airglow was disrupted when the shots penetrated.

Prove it was a shield interaction. Prior hits on the shields quite obviously demonstrated what sort of shield interaction we should see, yet we saw none (we saw sparks from the hit.) Note as well this is consistent with the idea that a much stronger bolt can penetrate the shields without generating a noticable interaction (though again, I doubt you will accept that.)

Except that the overall incident had shield interactions/

Some shield interactions.. but when the damage is inflicted on the hull (which isnt all that severe, BTW.. and the internal systems remain visibly intact), there are none.

This only shows that yes, the coreships had shields.

Are you fucking blind? read the quote again:

"With powerful energy shields on their starships, neither side can overwhelm the other using their ship-mounted cannons; moreover indiscrimintate fire by Republic anti-starship weapons would endanger the droid facilities that it must capture if it hopes to uncover the secrets of the Separatist conspiracy."

Emphasis mine; starship weapons can't be used because the shields, yet if their shields were down and could not be activated for minutes (according to you, apparently), they would in FACT Be vulnerable to said weapons - you seriously can't think that they would not NOTICE the absence of shields and try to take them out as soon as possible, do you? They could have EASILY done this at the initial stage of the battle, in fact, if we believe your claims as to what the shield status supposedly is. However, if the shields are up, they obviously cannot do so without using large, sustained broadsides, which would pose a danger to the droid facilities (and the people on the planet as well) - the "indiscriminate fire". Active shields ARE a deterrent against the use of massed- starship fire. Lowered shields are not (especially since, as you insist, they would take a long time to raise.)

Oh wait, I keep forgetting that according to you, a mere 12 troop transports were able to not only rout the entire warship complement of the Separatists in orbit (including thousands of Geonosian fighters), but maintain an orbital blockade against hundreds of fleeing warships. Oh yes, and don't forget the gunships.

Except we know from the novelisation( using above caveats) that the Coreships hull were too heavily armoured for the LAAT rockets to work,(similar perhaps to the proton torpedo, concussion missile penetration of ROTJ reactor?)

What part of "there's a difference between particle shielding and ray shielding" are you incapable of understanding? Ray shields don't stop physical projectiles, remember? Moreover, how does having shields down at one point against a particular weapon used agianst a particular ship prove that they were still down later on?

As for the first, Accalamators had been extremely overworked. We know that at least 2 Accalamators were on the surface of the planet, disgorging troops at least.
These troops were critical in rescuing Anakin, Obiwan and Amidala, who were brought forward to the assembly area. This assembly area was rather close to the Federation LZ, if the Accalamators had attacked the Coreships, they would had risked exposing the unprotected Jedi, or worse, Amidala to the aftermath of such an attack.

Not if their shields are down. The facilities were only in danger from "indiscriminate fire", not precision fire. And for that matter, if the hull is as weak as claimed, you wouldn't even need to use all that large a yield anyhow to disable them. Surely you aren't suggesting the Acclamators, if your assumptions are all correct, could not do what the SPHA-Ts did, are you?

Furthermore, we know from ITW as well as ICS that the Accalamators, LAATs were heavily involved in supressing Genosis defences and enforcing a naval blockade(novelisation). This ranged from destroying Geonosian fighters, attacking enemy airfields and orbital guns installations, the Federation ships in space and so on and forth. Its entirely possible that the Coreships were so low on the pirority list that the overtaxed Accalamators had not reached them in time yet.

Where was it demonstrated that the LAAT's and Acclamators were directly responsible for the blockade? The novelization only mentions "Republic warships" - are you seriously proposing that the Republic only deployed a dozen troop transports against all the ground and space forces the Geonosians and Separatists had?

So, the kilometers away of Tantive IV and Devastator produced visible shield flares, but a SPHAT firing upon a Coreship won't?

If the beam is substantially stronger than the shields, yes. Or it might just cause splintering of the bolts into smaller bolts (which we may be too distant to witness.) I've already explained this and provided examples.

I showed how the shields might not be up. We agreed to leave SPHAT firepower out of this discussion the last round.

"might not be up?" I provided evidence that indicates that they WERE up, even though you refuse to acknowledge that among other things. Instead you invent this fantasy where the entire GEonosian/Separatist military at Geonosis was routed by a dozen military transports and 1600 gunships, several hundred thousand clone troops, and a couple thousand ground vehicles, despite being heavily outnumbered. Yes,. this is not only quite sensible but realistic. Maybe hte Jedi deployed Force storms to destroy the majority of the Separatists???

]
Apples and Oranges Connor. The Avenger had its shields in standby mode, whereas the Core ships were in cold start.

Where was it stated the Core ships were at a "cold start", and where is it stated that the Avenger's shields are in standby mode? I'm tired of this "I don't have to provide evidence if I don't want to' bullshit you are pulling.

Furthermore, the novelisation nor the movie made any mention of the Queen Yacht lifting off without doing a preflight startup, the speed of its escape was measured from its liftoff to space, not from the starting of the ship engines to space.

Watch the fucking movie. It takes less than a minute for Ric Olie to get into his seat to when the Trade Fed ships start firing. Oh wait, I bet the Trade Federation conveniently kept the Queen's Yacht on standby mode as well! The novelization mentions, incidentally, the engines on the Yacht were firing even before the Jedi made it to the Yacht's cabin.)

What fucking evidence? That there must be shields because there was a battle? If I was to apply this "There must be because it was a battle"to Endor, you would be screaming bloody murder.

Fine then, explain why the core ships (the most dangerous/important vessels if they get to orbit to the battleships and dock) were not taken out by the Acclamators in the early stage of the battle (when they had surprise on their side, and BEFORe they deployed. They could have rescued the Jedi and taken them to safety before blasting the Core ships, particularily without shields. There's no reason to expect they would have to start deploying immediately. Especially since we know they had time to take out the Geonosian fighter facilities.) And no, your mythical "the transports and gunships did all the work" fantasy does not explain this, parrticularily when you cite no evidence to back it up.

Really? Circular logic that because there's a battle, there must be shields? Where is the evidence for the shield being present? The ITW only shows that the Coreships have shields, not evidence that the shields were on.

Nice strawman. Did you forget the orbital blockade as well? (you know, warships with starship weaponry in orbit?) ITW demonstrates that had not there been shields, the Core ships would have been vulnerable to starship weapons fire. If they lifted off and escaped without bothering to raise shields, then why did none of them get shot down? (This is where you repeat your fantasy about the Acclamators and gunships, btw)

Except you can't prove that it didn't. Furthermore, the Yacht is different from a freighter.

So you want to ignore it (and the Avenger) because they're inconsistent with your delusional little fantasy. Figures.

A rather valid assumption. The Core ships have no reason to be active, and safety would had prompted them to shut down and defuel the craft. We used this exact same argument for Jango Fett, remember?

Gee, having captured two enemies spying on their territory, knowing they were in communication with their superiors (remember how they caught Obi-Wan?), and planning to execute them as traitors. You don't think that might give them reason for caution? You also seem to think the Republic just popped out of hyperspace and blockaded/ landed on the planet without the Geonosians noticing at all, especially since some a hundred, two hundred or so Jedi pop up out of nowhere in the middle of said execution. Right. No reasons to be active at all.

Furthermore, you dont think they could have been using the Core ships to transport manufactured droids to the battleships in orbit, do you? I mean, the battleships can carry a rather large quantity... and that's one of the roles of the Core ship. Not much reason to completely shut down if you're ferrying cargo up from a planet's surface.

Rapid shield activation for whom? Avenger, a ship that's presumably in standby status? As opposed to Anakin skywalker, whoose shield generators had overheated and required to be shut down and reactivated?

Again, I am wondering where you get evidence fo rthis "standby status"? And how does overheating prove your point? Are you saying the core ships at Geonosis (or the Queen's YAcht) had receently suffered overheating? If anything, that might argue for my case, since it did not apparently take all that long for the systems to restart (and everything was overheated, incidentally.)

I might point out that on page 179 of "Before the Storm", Lando restarrted the Lady Luck in a couple of minutes after more than a month of "engines cold" - and that was "unusually thorough!". Gee, that suggests what happened in TPM may not be that unusual! (same with the Falcon's DS escape in ANH - according to the novelization the ray shields were up even before Luke boarded the Falcon)

But its proof against your "there's a battle, shields must be on" theory, as well as against your LAAT can destroy unshielded coreship theory.

Oh yes. If you assume that a missile and the SPHA-T's beam weapon are the same kind of weapon. Quite clear-cut logic there, of course!

Clearly, there was no particle shielding on, despite the fact that the Coreship was in battle and in danger of being overrun, and LAAT 100KT rockets cannot penetrate the Coreship hull.

They indicated in the novelization that the Core ships were too big for the gunships to take on. I have no problem with the hull being strong enough to resist those kinds of hits. I fail to see how this is inconsistent with my theory in the least (particularily since the Acclamator's hull is known to shrug off fusion rockets as well) since it would simply argue for the strength of the hull against the weapons (and provide a lower limit on the SPHA-T's firepower)

And just ot elaborate, them not being in danger frorm the gunships says nothing about the starships (which in fact the ITW books states AS a threat, without the presence of shielding. Of course, I suppose to you the shielding is just some unspoken threat, isnt it? "Don't fire at us or we'll raise our shield!" )

Why not?
1. The statement is that ISD ships were more heavily armoured. So, its more heavily armoured, does it disprove or prove the question of shields? No. Does it touch upon shields? No. Can it be taken literally? Yes. Especially if you remember the EU made the Mon Cal shields more redundant than ISDs, thus suggesting that Mon Cal shielding is superior to ISD.

Because by your logic they only mention armor and not shields, the shields could not have been up. Is that so difficult for you to grasp? By your logic, they should have siad "they are more heavily armored and shielded than us." or something to that effect, otherwise shields wouldn't have been active.

2. ST armour having shielding can and is already taken literally to mean particle and ray shield being skin tight, or permeating the armour totally. So, is your argument that it can't be taken literally false? Geez, both of us are already taking it literally. Look two pages back for your Coreship hull argument.

Where's the evidencee for ray and particle shielding then? By your logic, we should be seeing visible shield itneraction effects and the airglow effects from the shields. In my case, they can either be there and we don't see the effects, or "shielding" can be an exaggeration and mean something else. Doesn't hurt my argument either way.

And of course, its just so happens that a single Coreship didn't have particle shields on whereas all the remaining ships do. Are you mad?

So says Mr "The troop ships could blockade the entire planet!". Apparently your selective memory forgot the different kinds of shielding that exist, again.

Except we see Obiwan and gang attacking the same LZ as Yoda, especially if we include the storyline found in the Clone Wars X-box game.

Even granting that, you do realize there is more than one core ship there, right? So how do you know they attacked the exact same ship (and that they could not have raised the shields in the intervening period?) I can't wait to hear what sort tof ludicrous invention you com eup with for this.

I might point out that at the time the gunships attack a core ship, the vessel is basically lifting off into orbit... so even very early in the battle they were obviously active.

Then let me use your own argument against you one more time. According to the novelisation, the REpublic army was attacking across the entire Hemisphere, if not the planet, seeing that totally different terrain maps were being displayed on the command centre. The ICS also made note that the Republic were attacking airfields, command installations and IOW, supressing orbital defences installations. The novelisation also made note that the Republic was destroying the Federation transports in space, which were easy pickings for the Accalamators. The Galactic Battleground and Clone War X-box also suggest this.

And according to you, 12 Acclamators are sufficient to do all this, fend off thousands of starfighters and however many battleships and escots are in orbit while maintaining an upper hand, as well as maintaining a successful blockade against hundreds of enemy ships. Gee, that makes PERFECT sense, despite being heavily outnumbered!

The Coreships also had no reason to be on a standby status prior to the battle itself.Ergo, we assume they are not and has been shut down. This being standard procedure is backed up by Jango Fett Slave ship being in a shut down status.

Except for Obi-Wan's capture.. Anakin and Padme's capture and exuection attempt... the arrival of the Jedi.... emergencee of Republic warships in orbit around Geonosis....

And care to explain what they are using to load up the battleships with, then? And I want to see evidence of them being "shut down" suddenly means they take many minutes to activate their shields, as well, since I HAVE provide d evidence to the contrary, even if you refuse to accept it.

[The Silence and I]

I don't see what is going on here? We see beams hit at various angles, and damage occurs near as we can tell, each time. Ask anybody who knows something about sloping tank armor! If you get penetration at a non-perpendicular impact point, you will get plenty of it at a perpendicular one. Simple!!!! Basic trig, nothing more!

One says the shields must have been up, the other says they must have been down, and both are failing to notice that interaction or no interaction or common sense or whatever are not needed!

Just look at the scene and think, the shields were down. Down! Why? Because I was under the impression KT level weapons couldn't penetrate SW shielding!!! That's why! Did anyone read my post? Think about it? At all? I could be wrong, but I doubt it, and no one has reacted to it.

If the armor can barely resist 200 GT at 20 degrees from the surface, then 60% will pass through at 90 degrees to the surface. If it takes gigatons to damage these things, then we are talking insanity.
If those guns were 200 GT a pop, then the energy density inside teh core ship (averaged out, of course) was 2.8E12 joules per fricken cubic meter!!!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would horribly do in the unarmored internals of any ship. And the detritus would billow outward like a multi-megaton geyser of fire.

This seems so obvious to me, tell me, please, why you continue to debate!

[PainRack]

How do you derive the fact the Falcon's guns being stronger than the TIE shields? Especially since it takes at least two (non-consecutive) shots to do that?

You mean other than the fact that a single shot in the Death Star trench damaged Black 3?

The first I mentioned is early in the battle, just after the ambush is sprung. The Falcon is skimming across one of the Mon Cal cruisers with TIEs chasing it.. just before it switches to Luke watching the battle from the Emperor's throne room.

The second occurs just after the Ewoks start fighting. "Red Three and Red two" are ordered to pull in. an A-wing is destroyed when chased across the surfac eof a winged Mon Cal cruiser by two TIEs, and is destroyed.

The third occurs as a TIE is chasing Wedge past the underside of another Mon Cal cruiser, and the TIE collides after firing some shots.

Thanks. Sigh, this is more conclusive proof that I need to get off my butt and go over the movies again.........

Yes it is backed up by a canon statement (the ITW: AOTC), even though you deny this.

Backed up by a statement saying that coreships had shields, and that to engage in a gunnery duel would inflict unacceptable collatoral damage. Yet, we're supposed to believe that SPHATs do not inflict the amount of collatoral damage the Republic ships would have, despite them being equivalent in firepower, nor the fact that the destruction of the known Coreship was a multi kt event.

"Overworked Acclamators?" Care to point out this in the novelization to me? The only point I can note indicating the status of the battle is on page 340 of the AOTC novelization:

The accalamators were overworked in the amount of objectives they had to do.
1. Drop LAATs to rescue Jedi.
2. Drop LAATs to gain air supremacy.
3. Engage various defence installations.
4. Engage and destroy Federation fleet, enforce naval blockade of the planet.
5. Drop troops to engage Seperatist armies, at least two known battles, if not conflicts ranging hemisphere wide.

The mere fact that Count Dooku and 2 known Federation ships were unmolested prove that the Accalamators already have their hands full. Furthermore, the Clone Wars galactic battleground states that the Seperatists salvaged an army off Geonosis, meaning that the blockade was not fully effective,regardless of the fact that the Republic navy had destroyed numerous vessels.

Oh and about the gunships.. "thousands" of Geonosian fighters. Even assuming all 1600 were deployed against orbital ships (an unlikely proposition) the fighters would maul the gunships in short order.

Say again? I don't understand this statement.

Moreover, we know from the ICS2 book that "thousands"of Geonosian fighters attacked the blockade, in addition to the hundreds of ships (including dozens of Core ships) escaped from Geonosis (which doesn't include the ships already in orbit. ITW indicates that there was a "fleet" of battleships in orbit awaiting loading of battle droids... at least sixty in number, based on the number of Core ships) Not only are oyu makign a ridiculous suggestion in that a mere dozen military transports (if not less) could establish and maintain a blockade of an entire planet against all that (remember the blockade of Naboo in TPM and how many ships it required?) you're ALSO suggesting that a mere dozen military transports were enough to send all those ships fleeing! You know, I would like to see some "proof" of these supposedly "overworked" Acclamators.

You just provided proof, that the Accalamators could not fulfill all the objectives they were tasked with, and you want them to add orbital fire support to this?

What's more, did it ever occur to you that an Acclamator according to the EP2 ICS can only hold 80 cargo and combat gunships, 48 AT-TEs, and 36 SPHA-Ts? According to the ITW book, they deployed 1600 combat gunships, 400 cargo gunships, 2,160 AT-TEs, and 100 SPHA-Ts, in addition to 192,000 troops. Now, they were carrying fewer SPHA-Ts than normal (about 20-25% the normal complement, I believe), but there was anywhere from 2-5x MORE gunships and walkers than 12 Acclamators should be able to carry! Are you seriously going ot start telling me that each Acclamator hauled hundreds of gunships and Walkers into battle apiece, in conflict with the canonical capacities?

This in fact proves they had more ships there - at least another dozen or so, if not several dozen. (Of course, I'm sure you'd try to suggest something like they were unarmed transports or freighters rather than warships of some sort - Even though such ships would be vulnerable to attack by the Separtist forces if unescorted - which would put even a FURTHER strain on the already unrealistic duties you have dumped on a measly dozen troop transports. Which means that either as escorts for transports or as direct transports themselves, they HAD other warships there.

Actually, I astonished that you forgot that the Battle of Geonosis did not involve the initial strike force alone, but lasted over a week, meaning the Republic had more than ample time to reinforce the planet.

And as the final nail in your ridiculous coffin, I would point out that according to the NEGV&V, the Acclamator's anti-starship weapons aren't that well suited to capital-ship combat, due to its specialized planetary-assault role (in fact, its this reason that dictates the importance of Acclamators needing an escort - the NEGV&V indicates that in later battles they are given battleship and starfighter escort support.) And yet you appear to insist that a dozen warships can easily defeat a numerically superior space force including ships that are vastly larger than the transports themselves and the support of thousands of starfighters, while maintaining an effective planetary blockade against fleeing warships. What's more, you actually seem to think this is the most effective approach they could have taken (even though grounded spaceships make much easier targets!)

So by your logic, the only way to "rationalize" the incident is to generate even more absurd conclusions than you already did? Yes, of course it makes sense for a mere dozen troop transports to threaten dozens of ships, even when its noted they have the "upper hand"!

I'm starting to lose track of what angle you're coming from.
1. The Republic fleet in orbit were more than capable of engaging and destroying the Federation transports in orbit and within the asteroid belt. It was noted that they were destroying them with ease.

2. yet, we know that 2 ships were unmolested when they loaded troops fleeing from the planet, and all EU and subsequent canon materials note that the Seperatists salvaged a droid army off Geonosis, meaning that the blockade was ineffective.

As such, all this proved that the Republic fleet was already overworked with the objectives they had, and orbital fire support was discarded as a low pirority event.

Of course, I also like how you start to backpedal and insist there must be "partial" shields up (interesting, given that I pointed out already that I in no way indicated yield of the SPHAT, merely that shielding WAS active) now as well.

Actually, no, I'm not backpedalling. If you recall the last thread on SB, I already claimed that the Fed ships had either no shields, or at best, partial shielding up(if SPHAT firepower was equivalent to Accalamators)

WTF does off-screen shots have to do with the fact that we saw no obvious shield interaction occur when the shield generator takes damage? Did they have the shields inactive directly around the shields or something??

You're assuming that the shield generator was damaged by the shots we saw ricoheting nearby, despite the fact that the yacht was buffeted by "flak" bursts?

Prove it was a shield interaction. Prior hits on the shields quite obviously demonstrated what sort of shield interaction we should see, yet we saw none (we saw sparks from the hit.) Note as well this is consistent with the idea that a much stronger bolt can penetrate the shields without generating a noticable interaction (though again, I doubt you will accept that.)

Despite the fact that the airglow was consistent with the deflected shots from Obiwan and Qui Gon ricoheting off droideka shields? The only difference here was that no splintering of the bolts occured, but the bolt penetrated the shield whole.

There is evidence that a stronger bolt can penetrate shields without noticable signs of interaction, but this isn't it.

"With powerful energy shields on their starships, neither side can overwhelm the other using their ship-mounted cannons; moreover indiscrimintate fire by Republic anti-starship weapons would endanger the droid facilities that it must capture if it hopes to uncover the secrets of the Separatist conspiracy."

Emphasis mine; starship weapons can't be used because the shields, yet if their shields were down and could not be activated for minutes (according to you, apparently), they would in FACT Be vulnerable to said weapons - you seriously can't think that they would not NOTICE the absence of shields and try to take them out as soon as possible, do you? They could have EASILY done this at the initial stage of the battle, in fact, if we believe your claims as to what the shield status supposedly is.

Hence, Mine saying the Accalamators were overworked. They had too many conflicting pirorities, and the decision to take out loaded Coreships were left to the ground forces. This is logical because the Republic was smashing the Federation fleet in space.

What part of "there's a difference between particle shielding and ray shielding" are you incapable of understanding? Ray shields don't stop physical projectiles, remember? Moreover, how does having shields down at one point against a particular weapon used agianst a particular ship prove that they were still down later on?

What part of "If they had particle shields down,it means your logic of they were in battle, they should have shields up" do you not understand?
What part of "minutes prior to the SPHAT firing" do you not understand?

Not if their shields are down. The facilities were only in danger from "indiscriminate fire", not precision fire. And for that matter, if the hull is as weak as claimed, you wouldn't even need to use all that large a yield anyhow to disable them. Surely you aren't suggesting the Acclamators, if your assumptions are all correct, could not do what the SPHA-Ts did, are you?

So, Accalamators guns, which require a sustained broadside, will inflict unacceptable collatoral damage, yet, SPHAT guns, which delivered a sustained broadside, won't?

Where was it demonstrated that the LAAT's and Acclamators were directly responsible for the blockade? The novelization only mentions "Republic warships" - are you seriously proposing that the Republic only deployed a dozen troop transports against all the ground and space forces the Geonosians and Separatists had?

Except that the supression of Geonosian defences were explicitly stated to be the missions of LAATs.

If the beam is substantially stronger than the shields, yes. Or it might just cause splintering of the bolts into smaller bolts (which we may be too distant to witness.) I've already explained this and provided examples.

Conceded.

"might not be up?" I provided evidence that indicates that they WERE up, even though you refuse to acknowledge that among other things. Instead you invent this fantasy where the entire GEonosian/Separatist military at Geonosis was routed by a dozen military transports and 1600 gunships, several hundred thousand clone troops, and a couple thousand ground vehicles, despite being heavily outnumbered. Yes,. this is not only quite sensible but realistic. Maybe hte Jedi deployed Force storms to destroy the majority of the Separatists???

No. I speculated that the Republic initial entry force, of 12 Accalamators along with the Clone troopers on board were tasked with supressing enemy defences,providing air cover and winning air supremacy, engaging enemy transports within the perimeter of the asteroid belt, dropping a rescue force and then engaging the Seperatists droids armies throughout the planet so as to pin them down, so that further Republic forces, could enter the system and wipe them out.

Where was it stated the Core ships were at a "cold start", and where is it stated that the Avenger's shields are in standby mode? I'm tired of this "I don't have to provide evidence if I don't want to' bullshit you are pulling.

I'm sorry, I'm unaware that I have to prove that a ship running along in space, which has just exited from an asteroid field where it was suffering megaton hits, with running lights on, power to its weapons, on an operational cruise must be in a coldstart, which usually ships in dock undergo, and I'm sorry that the fact that the Coreships were in dock, which as I said, if they follow safety regs will mean they are in a cold start and is backed up by Jango Fett ship example, which i have all posted are not admissable as evidence. Why? Because analogies are not allowed, despite the fact that you used the Avenger as an analogy.

Watch the fucking movie. It takes less than a minute for Ric Olie to get into his seat to when the Trade Fed ships start firing. Oh wait, I bet the Trade Federation conveniently kept the Queen's Yacht on standby mode as well! The novelization mentions, incidentally, the engines on the Yacht were firing even before the Jedi made it to the Yacht's cabin.)

Conceded.

Nice strawman. Did you forget the orbital blockade as well? (you know, warships with starship weaponry in orbit?) ITW demonstrates that had not there been shields, the Core ships would have been vulnerable to starship weapons fire. If they lifted off and escaped without bothering to raise shields, then why did none of them get shot down? (This is where you repeat your fantasy about the Acclamators and gunships, btw)

Nice strawman, as I said,they were expecting to have their shields operational before they risked the Republic blockade.

So you want to ignore it (and the Avenger) because they're inconsistent with your delusional little fantasy. Figures.

Right, so, Anakin fighter is also part of my delusional little fantasy.

Gee, having captured two enemies spying on their territory, knowing they were in communication with their superiors (remember how they caught Obi-Wan?), and planning to execute them as traitors. You don't think that might give them reason for caution? You also seem to think the Republic just popped out of hyperspace and blockaded/ landed on the planet without the Geonosians noticing at all, especially since some a hundred, two hundred or so Jedi pop up out of nowhere in the middle of said execution. Right. No reasons to be active at all.

I'm sorry, which part of Count Dooku statement that the Republic could not have gathered an army so fast did you not understand?

Furthermore, you dont think they could have been using the Core ships to transport manufactured droids to the battleships in orbit, do you? I mean, the battleships can carry a rather large quantity... and that's one of the roles of the Core ship. Not much reason to completely shut down if you're ferrying cargo up from a planet's surface.

And of course, we all know the Coreships have already made multiple trips to space, despite the fact that the Federation agreeing to join the Seperatists was contingent on Amidala execution? And was made just hours ago? And of course, loading of droids and the like require no time, no time at all. This despite the fact that the Hoth evacuation, that left behind significant amounts of heavy equipment took up to a day.

I might point out that on page 179 of "Before the Storm", Lando restarrted the Lady Luck in a couple of minutes after more than a month of "engines cold" - and that was "unusually thorough!". Gee, that suggests what happened in TPM may not be that unusual! (same with the Falcon's DS escape in ANH - according to the novelization the ray shields were up even before Luke boarded the Falcon)

1. I already stated the minutes portion, for MF before.
2. I'm sorry, how does the MF, which was captured, presumably did not undergo the equivalence of defeuling and shut down of the engines equals to the Coreships, which would have?

Because by your logic they only mention armor and not shields, the shields could not have been up. Is that so difficult for you to grasp? By your logic, they should have siad "they are more heavily armored and shielded than us." or something to that effect, otherwise shields wouldn't have been active.

Right, massive misinterpretation here.
I said that if the attack corresponds to the one we saw on screen, No shield interaction occured, and skin tight particle shielding is unlikely, considering the "too heavily armoured" statement, suggesting that it was the armour that prevented damage, not shields.
The ROTJ novelisation merely states that ISD were more heavily armoured than Mon Cals. which is true. So?

Where's the evidencee for ray and particle shielding then? By your logic, we should be seeing visible shield itneraction effects and the airglow effects from the shields. In my case, they can either be there and we don't see the effects, or "shielding" can be an exaggeration and mean something else. Doesn't hurt my argument either way.

From a hit.........

So says Mr "The troop ships could blockade the entire planet!". Apparently your selective memory forgot the different kinds of shielding that exist, again.

I'm so sorry, its just that your statement that the Coreships must have shields up because they were in battle, is kinda misleading when a ship did not have particle shields up.

Even granting that, you do realize there is more than one core ship there, right? So how do you know they attacked the exact same ship (and that they could not have raised the shields in the intervening period?) I can't wait to hear what sort tof ludicrous invention you com eup with for this.

I can't wait to hear you address the point I made, which is, your logic that shields were up because they were in battle is disproved.