Culture vs. YV

[Crom]

I swore I asked this before but my searches didn't come up with anything.

I have just finished reading Excession by Iain M. Banks. In it the Culture deals with an aggressive, expansionistic, and cruel race called the Affront. I was curious how the Culture would deal with the YV if the Vong wandered into their territory instead of the SW Galaxy.

I know that the Culture's military technology would give them a significant edge, but it strikes me that the Culture is much more roundabout in their ways with dealing with other races. Ever since the Idrian-Culture War they seem reluctant to engage in open warfare with anyone.

The Vong would have ample motivation to assault the Culture, since the Culture is heavily mechanized and automated, especially with the Culture's drone technology.

Let's put the Culture at Excession period.

So what would happen?

[fgalkin]

The Culture may not like to kill other people, but they would do it if they see it as necessary. The Vong go down hard.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[NecronLord]

The Culture... ignore the Vong?

[fgalkin]

The Culture... ignore the Vong?

As this is a vs, I assume they don't.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[NecronLord]

As this is a vs, I assume they don't.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The initial post suggests that they're just attacked by the Vong. They can just yawn and casually splatter the Vong that go near them, they don't need to take offensive action.

[fgalkin]

Good point. Anyways, I doubt the Vong would even make the headlines in the Culture.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The war would be very long, and a difficult and costly victory for the Culture. They can't just waltz right over the Vong or something!

[Admiral Valdemar]

If this was the Vong waltzing into the Milky Way with delusions of grandeur, then there may be a war, a very short one which becomes the epitome of a curbstomping for the Vong.

If Contact found the Vong in the Star Wars galaxy, they may well use Special Circumstances to take them out of the equation, likely then going about solving the current Empire and New Republic crisis too.

Personally, I couldn't see Contact getting all that concerned about the Vong if they came into the Milk Way and didn't go about taking over places. But if they did, and it would seem likely, then they may be seen as a minor threat and contained as it were while agents go about disintegrating the race's structure and stopping the invasion. They really aren't much more than low level threats in the end, even the lesser races in the Cultureverse are more than a match for the Vong.

[Kerneth]

heh

Imagine the first time Yuuzhan Vong warriors have a run-in with a Culture combat drone.



The Culture would 'handle' any Vong ship that attempted to fire on them, then tell the Vong they're welcome to any planet they want; the Culture doesn't care about planets and the Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't want to live on an Orbital. In exchange, the Yuuzhan Vong would have to agree to behave themselves. The Culture may well dump them on a few planets then take steps to keep them from space travel; a few OWPs in orbit around each planet could keep the Vong from leaving the atmosphere.

Over the next few decades, Special Circumstances agents would be slipped into YV society and begin reforming them from within, urging them towards a somewhat saner religion and revamping the Vong caste system to something the Culture would find more acceptable.

I give it a century or two at most before the Yuuzhan Vong are perfectly agreeable neighbors, albeit ones with odd pets.

[Crom]

I didn't realize that the Culture so vastly overpowered the Vong. Well ... I'd still think that would sound more interesting than the NJO series. Maybe it would be good fanfic material ...

[Ghost Rider]

I didn't realize that the Culture so vastly overpowered the Vong. Well ... I'd still think that would sound more interesting than the NJO series. Maybe it would be good fanfic material ...

It would be if one decides to go a more peaceful route of trying to train the Vong perse.

Going and sheer power vs power...sorry they become less then a foot note.

[Mutant Headcrab]

This is a situation that falls back to a principle I learned when I first joined.

Everything's better with gridfire!

[Xenophobe3691]

This is a situation that falls back to a principle I learned when I first joined.

Everything's better with gridfire!

I tried Sex with Gridfire once...neighbors for a mile around asked what we were having for barbecue...

[mauldooku]

This is a situation that falls back to a principle I learned when I first joined.

Everything's better with gridfire!

I tried Sex with Gridfire once...neighbors for a mile around asked what we were having for barbecue...

Sounds painful. [/Understatement]

What are the calcs for the Gridfire, by the way? I seem to remember some debate over that. Not that it will change the outcome greatly.

[Shadowhawk]

Sounds painful. [/Understatement]

What are the calcs for the Gridfire, by the way? I seem to remember some debate over that. Not that it will change the outcome greatly.

The calcs are approximately über^2. Or about 100HF (HolyFucks).

[Xon]

What are the calcs for the Gridfire, by the way? I seem to remember some debate over that. Not that it will change the outcome greatly.

I think the lowend calcs where in the range of 10^50 joules, plus or minus 20 orders of magnitude.

Either way, everything which is a spaceship in Culture packs weaponary dozens of orders of magnitde more powerful than the DeathStar superlaser. And these weapons fire faster, have much greater range(multi-lightyears), and are accurate as hell.

[NecronLord]

I think the lowend calcs where in the range of 10^50 joules, plus or minus 20 orders of magnitude.

No, that's a number flat out made up by someone on sb.com.


6.5E37J based on the (absurd) assumption that Bank's use of "Trillions upon trillions of tons" means a million quadrllion tons. Note that this is less than a Death Star blast.

I should note that, for the record, the reason that there's so many planet killing weapons in the Cultureverse is that Banks has no idea how much is required to do that. According to him a British Nuke sub is capable of depopulating the Earth (actually, 'to destroy the world'). Just as a side note.

[Xon]

I think the lowend calcs where in the range of 10^50 joules, plus or minus 20 orders of magnitude.

No, that's a number flat out made up by someone on sb.com.

Figures. But thats why I put the plus or minus bit, I wasnt overly sure.

6.5E37J based on the (absurd) assumption that Bank's use of "Trillions upon trillions of tons" means a million quadrllion tons. Note that this is less than a Death Star blast.

Isnt the Deathstare blast around 2.2E32 range?

It really doesnt matter how many orders of magnitude more/less power gridfire is than a Deathstar blast, not in this case.

[NecronLord]

Isnt the Deathstare blast around 2.2E32 range?

It really doesnt matter how many orders of magnitude more/less power gridfire is than a Deathstar blast, not in this case.

1e38j

[Admiral Valdemar]

No, that's a number flat out made up by someone on sb.com.

It was a guess given the power exhibited, I believe IXJac came up with it as just a basis for what to expect. It wasn't intended to be accurate as there is no way to accurately gauge the power

6.5E37J based on the (absurd) assumption that Bank's use of "Trillions upon trillions of tons" means a million quadrllion tons. Note that this is less than a Death Star blast.

Given we don't know what the material is that made the orbital, I don't see how you can even begin to use that figure which is patently absurd anyway. You're talking about a rip to a universe of pure antimatter energy as Banks has stated. And what's that for the calc anyway? 1m^3? 1km^3 of gridfire output? The amount used to cut the orbital? What?

In other words, you've shown jack there and no reason why I should take your number over the other unless you know what that material was (I highly doubt it was iron for some reason).

According to him a British Nuke sub is capable of depopulating the Earth (actually, 'to destroy the world'). Just as a side note.

Source?

[NecronLord]

It was a guess given the power exhibited, I believe IXJac came up with it as just a basis for what to expect. It wasn't intended to be accurate as there is no way to accurately gauge the power

So it's a guess...

Given we don't know what the material is that made the orbital, I don't see how you can even begin to use that figure which is patently absurd anyway. You're talking about a rip to a universe of pure antimatter energy as Banks has stated. And what's that for the calc anyway? 1m^3? 1km^3 of gridfire output? The amount used to cut the orbital? What?

That's what's needed to vapourise trillions upon trillions (subject to the provisor above) of iron.

In other words, you've shown jack there and no reason why I should take your number over the other unless you know what that material was (I highly doubt it was iron for some reason).

Come up with a better number then. Go on.

Do bear in mind that this is roughly enough to blow up the planet Earth ten thousand times over. Also bear in mind that my link did state, numerous times that it was a lower limit.

Source?

It's from Complicity. Alas, I no longer have the book, but the quote is from early on as Cameron visits the launch of a nukeboat, and it's described as something like "a nuclear phallus with enough firepower to destroy the world, destroy everything."

[NecronLord]

And for reference, we can pick a number on the mass of an Orbital. AFNOTC is kind enough to mention that a typical orbital has a mass of 1/1500 th of the Earths. NB, vastly less than a million quadrillion tons.

The attraction of Orbitals is their matter efficiency. For one planet the size of Earth (population 6 billion at the moment; mass 6x10^24 kg), it would be possible, using the same amount of matter, to build 1,500 full orbitals, each one boasting a surface area twenty times that of Earth

[Admiral Valdemar]

So it's a guess...

I never said to the contrary. I was just clearing the fact up that it was IXJac and he just came up with that yonks ago.

That's what's needed to vapourise trillions upon trillions (subject to the provisor above) of iron.

Only a) it's not iron, it's "ultradense material" and b) we don't know how quick that stuff vaped. Unless there's a timeline to show the iron was vapour in microseconds or a second, it vastly alters the power level.

Come up with a better number then. Go on.

I'm not going to because the variables are such that it's simply not worth it. Given the threat such gridfire incursions have against Culture craft such as the Excession incursion, I don't take the fact that gridfire has barely 1% the output of an Acclamator's HTL. Besides, even if it was many orders of magnitude weaker or stronger than we imagine, the Culture rarely uses it when you can fling CAM and singularities around with planet blasting power. It's the Culture's Death Star. Tactically useless, but strategically handy for keeping the people in check.

Do bear in mind that this is roughly enough to blow up the planet Earth ten thousand times over. Also bear in mind that my link did state, numerous times that it was a lower limit.

It is duly noted, but I have always held the belief that it's a subject that's too prickly to go into unlike the superlaser blasts or nukes in B5. Books are annoyingly vague like that, if this was a film, however, I'd get more indepth and we could work with it probably a little better if some variables were elaborated upon.

It's from Complicity. Alas, I no longer have the book, but the quote is from early on as Cameron visits the launch of a nukeboat, and it's described as something like "a nuclear phallus with enough firepower to destroy the world, destroy everything."

Probably poetic thinking from the character. I don't see that being Banks' true view on life unless he's stated that there or in a real-life interview. I have wrote stories where the main character can't imagine an aircraft flying faster than Mach 3, but that's not to say I have that same belief. The "destroy everything" bit does it for me. Not literal (obviously), but not to put too fine a point on it, more or less correct in nuclear context.

[NecronLord]

I never said to the contrary. I was just clearing the fact up that it was IXJac and he just came up with that yonks ago.

Righto then.

Only a) it's not iron, it's "ultradense material" and

Indeed.

b) we don't know how quick that stuff vaped. Unless there's a timeline to show the iron was vapour in microseconds or a second, it vastly alters the power level.

Fairly glad I was talking about energy, not power then. As for how long it takes, we don't know, though it was observable by a near-human IIRC, so not microseconds.

I'm not going to because the variables are such that it's simply not worth it. Given the threat such gridfire incursions have against Culture craft such as the Excession incursion, I don't take the fact that gridfire has barely 1% the output of an Acclamator's HTL.

Indeed, it doesn't. Hence why I came

Besides, even if it was many orders of magnitude weaker or stronger than we imagine, the Culture rarely uses it when you can fling CAM and singularities around with planet blasting power. It's the Culture's Death Star. Tactically useless, but strategically handy for keeping the people in check.

Indeed. Also, we don't know how much area a gridfire impeller can saturate. I personally suspect it's capable of filling a volume a few AU across at least, but there's nothing to support that.

Though for reference, the Death Star has its tactical uses.

It is duly noted, but I have always held the belief that it's a subject that's too prickly to go into unlike the superlaser blasts or nukes in B5. Books are annoyingly vague like that, if this was a film, however, I'd get more indepth and we could work with it probably a little better if some variables were elaborated upon.

Yup, rare are books that give a nice calcable event (which was why I was so surprised by the Stargate (non SG1) books.) for discussion.

Probably poetic thinking from the character. I don't see that being Banks' true view on life unless he's stated that there or in a real-life interview. I have wrote stories where the main character can't imagine an aircraft flying faster than Mach 3, but that's not to say I have that same belief. The "destroy everything" bit does it for me. Not literal (obviously), but not to put too fine a point on it, more or less correct in nuclear context.

Indeed, that's how I wrote it off, but the thing is, he's meant to be an informed character. I ignored it and got on with the book after that, but it is irritating.

Not really true either, though it would be capable of setting off a chain of events that lead to some rather unpleasant consequences, it's not able to do so on its own.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Fairly glad I was talking about energy, not power then. As for how long it takes, we don't know, though it was observable by a near-human IIRC, so not microseconds.

Ah, yes, missed that, was thinking asteroid vaping calcs then. Still, the human view simply saw a blinding flash, so you still couldn't really see the structure anyway due to the radiation, annoyingly.

Indeed, it doesn't. Hence why I came

You came? Hope you cleared up, mucky pup.

Indeed. Also, we don't know how much area a gridfire impeller can saturate. I personally suspect it's capable of filling a volume a few AU across at least, but there's nothing to support that.

Though for reference, the Death Star has its tactical uses.

I'd go with that view too. Though that may be around CP era, they could have improved since then, but it's something we'll likely never know.

And yes, the DS can take out ships and planets, but as has been argued before, it's more a status symbol since that mass could be better spent on some shiny new ISDs.

Yup, rare are books that give a nice calcable event (which was why I was so surprised by the Stargate (non SG1) books.) for discussion.

Mind you, as handy as that'd be like the Bolo books as well, it soon turns into textbook reading if the author starts the one-upmanship of firepower or fight speed in comparison to other stories. That'd be funny to see though.

Indeed, that's how I wrote it off, but the thing is, he's meant to be an informed character. I ignored it and got on with the book after that, but it is irritating.

So long as Banks isn't a Creationist, I'll trust his science skills are adequate enough for his writing.

Not really true either, though it would be capable of setting off a chain of events that lead to some rather unpleasant consequences, it's not able to do so on its own.

Well, if you want to get picky, the British Cobalt-60 bombs could certainly make a bigger dent by destroying our way of life in more ways than one. That's the inherent fear of nukes. They're beyond imagining for most in terms of destruction. To have a city one minute and then a firestorm covered crater the next is an eery thought.