Sony just don’t get it

[SPOOFE]

When are they going to learn that most people aren’t going to choose crappy proprietary format only players when there are open source alternatives available

Y'know, I said the exact same thing about the iPod when it first came out.

It was true then.

Didn't take long for Apple to wise up and switch the thing over to PC compatibility.

Now the iPod is The Thing To Kill.

How long d'ya think until Sony wises up? Until now, the only advantage, technically, the iPod had has been its smaller size. If Sony adds Mp3 compatibility... oh wait. From Tom's...

Supported file types are ATRAC3 and ATRAC3plus files and as well as MP3, WAV and WMA.

Hmm... now things smell fishy.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, they support all of those. It just has to convert them to ATRAC when it transfers tracks to the discs, which isn't really that much of a hassle.

I think it converts them back if you transfer them back to the original hard drive, but I don't know because my manual is packed away and I've never done it. I usually just erase the discs when I'm done with them before I put other stuff on them.

I was initially slightly paranoid about the conversion thing, but I copy the MP3s to a different folder before transfering them and delete the copies when I'm done, so the originals stay untouched.

[phongn]

The Sony player, IIRC, transcodes MP3, PCM WAV and WMA to ATRAC before uploading it.

[SPOOFE]

... Then there's really no difference, really, if there's no additional hassle on your end.

So what's the problem, again?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

... Then there's really no difference, really, if there's no additional hassle on your end.

So what's the problem, again?

More "Big Bad Man steppin' on the Free People" whistle-blowing, I guess.

EDIT: Found my manual. According to the glossary, the ATRAC format has three compression settings: 135, 105, and 66 kbps, and an 80-minute MD can hold about 160 minutes of data in LP2 compression, which I think is 105 kbps.

[Plekhanov]

Sony may have good design, but their products are, generally speaking, poorly made.

I don’t really have much sony stuff but I did have a walkman that lasted me about 6 years when that finally broke I got an Aiwa and then a few Panasonics all of which barely lasted past their 12 month warrantee I base my belief that sony stuff is well made on that pathetically narrow sample.

How long d'ya think until Sony wises up? Until now, the only advantage, technically, the iPod had has been its smaller size. If Sony adds Mp3 compatibility... oh wait. From Tom's...

Supported file types are ATRAC3 and ATRAC3plus files and as well as MP3, WAV and WMA.

Hmm... now things smell fishy.

I think it might well take quite a while Sony are habitual offenders at this kind of thing just look at flash memory everybody else was quite happy with smartmedia and compact flash but sony have to go and introduce memory sticks which had which advantages exactly over the alternatives?

[Plekhanov]

... Then there's really no difference, really, if there's no additional hassle on your end.

So what's the problem, again?

More "Big Bad Man steppin' on the Free People" whistle-blowing, I guess.

EDIT: Found my manual. According to the glossary, the ATRAC format has three compression settings: 135, 105, and 66 kbps, and an 80-minute MD can hold about 160 minutes of data in LP2 compression, which I think is 105 kbps.

It is a extra hassle which is totally unnecessary if ATRAC is such a fantastic format then by all means have your player support and its manifest wonders should mean that it will become more popular, why confine people to it? Other than for the traditional Sony control freakery and to try and confine people to Sony’s download service.

Having to reconvert stuff is a pain in the arse, it means you loose quality and takes time (a lot of time if you a converting your whole hard drive) and is definitely more hassle than not having to reconvert stuff.

Also with most other players on the market you have the option of simply dragging and dropping your files across or using their own software sony give you no option & their software will no doubt include all manner of pain in the arse copyright protecting crippleware. This might not be such a problem on a minidisk player but it will be on a 20gb device.

Btw Spanky my brother has a lpMD player and whilst lp2 is ok you can definitely hear a drop in quality on lp4 if you can’t tell the difference maybe you should get some better headphones the crappy bundled ones tend to lose a lot of detail.

[phongn]

Y'know, I said the exact same thing about the iPod when it first came out.

It was true then.

Didn't take long for Apple to wise up and switch the thing over to PC compatibility.

Now the iPod is The Thing To Kill.

The iPod was already quite popular before full support on the PC platform (aka iTunes/Windows) arrived. Before then you had to use third-party tools for playlist integration and such. Even in the face of competition with the less-expensive iRiver HD-based players, it still did well.

How long d'ya think until Sony wises up? Until now, the only advantage, technically, the iPod had has been its smaller size.

The user interface of the iPod has traditionally been considered a strong suit and not yet matched by any other MP3 player and its integration with iTunes is excellent. In addition, it has some useful extra things like a contact list and the ability to be used as an external, bootable HD (which some other players do support as well).

... Then there's really no difference, really, if there's no additional hassle on your end.

What if you wanted to use your newly-compressed files elsewhere? In addition, lossy transcoding implies quality loss.

I don’t really have much sony stuff but I did have a walkman that lasted me about 6 years when that finally broke I got an Aiwa and then a few Panasonics all of which barely lasted past their 12 month warrantee I base my belief that sony stuff is well made on that pathetically narrow sample.

One of their US$3000 video camera had a design flaw in which if you wanted to manually adjust the mic gain it would produce large amounts of noise in the background (autogain worked normally.) Seeing as this was intended for the professional market where sometimes you do have to use manual gain for one reason or another, you'd think they'd issue a recall. Nope, they charged for the fix.

Their VAIO series of laptops has a well-deserved reputation for poor reliability; only recently has that series improved in reliability. However, their product support is quite bad.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Btw Spanky my brother has a lpMD player and whilst lp2 is ok you can definitely hear a drop in quality on lp4 if you can’t tell the difference maybe you should get some better headphones the crappy bundled ones tend to lose a lot of detail.

I don't really notice a loss in quality because I only use the LP2 setting. I've hever used the LP4 setting at all. Additionally, before I bought the MD player, I purchased a pair of $30 headphones (also from Sony), so there is no problem quality-wise on my end.

Again, I've only used the LP2 setting, in case it needs to be additionally clarified to you.

[Glocksman]

When are they going to learn that most people aren’t going to choose crappy proprietary format only players when there are open source alternatives available, it’s a shame because so much of their stuff is well designed and made, even if it is expensive.

Sony may have good design, but their products are, generally speaking, poorly made.

I'm old enough to remember when Sony made some of the best quality consumer level electronics with their Trinitron TV's and Betamax VCR's.

In fact, my TV is a 1987 27 inch Trinitron that I have no intention of replacing until I'm forced to.

Nowadays though it's all about SonyStyle™ and fuck the quality and innovation that used to be company hallmarks.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Read this on the Beeb's website and was also impressed until I read that no MP3 support sentence.

I'll either wait until they do one for MP3 and shun this Microsoft tactic of keeping the ball in their court with exclusive file formats, or get an iPod eventually. My brother is thinking the latter, but even he liked the look of this Sony Walkman.

Right now, I'm happy with my Sony MD Walkman. Aside from the fact that I have to manually add songs to it and it has to have multiple MiniDiscs for my compilations, I can't fault it. The only Sony product to have a problem in my experience is the original PSX which has to be turned upside down to work (think it was a laser problem).

[Stark]

Sony needs to step away from proprietary formats; not just ATRAC but MS too. They make okay products, but in things like digicams the miss the point by forcing everyone to use frickin MSs that are twice as expensive and half the size. ATRAC is what put me off MD players, and my dodgy MP3 playing USB key satisfies me. I'm with Glocksman; Sony used to make cutting-edge stuff, now they've just got the best marketing budget.

[SPOOFE]

I think it might well take quite a while Sony are habitual offenders at this kind of thing just look at flash memory everybody else was quite happy with smartmedia and compact flash but sony have to go and introduce memory sticks which had which advantages exactly over the alternatives?

The fact that it's used in the most popular consumer-level cameras? Seems like quite an advantage (for Memory Stick) to me.

The iPod was already quite popular before full support on the PC platform

Thank you for agreeing with me: There is nothing wrong with proprietary formats, and the only people that seem to think so really need to quit whining.

What if you wanted to use your newly-compressed files elsewhere?

What if? You still have the original copy still on your computer. It's not like you can't make copies of data.

[phongn]

The fact that it's used in the most popular consumer-level cameras? Seems like quite an advantage (for Memory Stick) to me.

Are Sony cameras indeed the "most popular consumer-level cameras?" The point is that MS becomes useless if you want to switch brands, or if your particular MS implementation isn't supported by a different Sony camera.

Thank you for agreeing with me: There is nothing wrong with proprietary formats, and the only people that seem to think so really need to quit whining.

Uh, I wasn't agreeing with you. Since when was MP3 a proprietary format (of which the iPod natively supports without transcoding).

What if? You still have the original copy still on your computer. It's not like you can't make copies of data.

Depends on if you start using the Sony Music Store; it may be a non-trivial task to convert from ATRAC to some other format (or, for that point, burn it for some other device).

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

This is like Betamax all over again. Learn your lessons, fuckheads!

[White Haven]

While you're at pumping proprietary formats, let's hear it for mid-nineties Compaq desktops! ....wait, nobody? Alright, alright, how about those Dell desktop cases!... Er...

[phongn]

While you're at pumping proprietary formats, let's hear it for mid-nineties Compaq desktops! ....wait, nobody? Alright, alright, how about those Dell desktop cases!... Er...

Anyone remember Dell PSUs? They had the same physical connector as the standard ATX PSU, but some of the wires were swapped.

[White Haven]

Remeber? Shit, man, when I'm not here waging war, I'm at work waging war against every last POS combination of computer hardware people have managed to sling together in the past decade or so. The life of a small-business retail tech.

[Pu-239]

While you're at pumping proprietary formats, let's hear it for mid-nineties Compaq desktops! ....wait, nobody? Alright, alright, how about those Dell desktop cases!... Er...

Anyone remember Dell PSUs? They had the same physical connector as the standard ATX PSU, but some of the wires were swapped.

Ouch .

There are many many things wrong with proprietary formats- namely vendor lock in. I was very pissed when I found that a Dell PC would not allow me to replace a PII-233 with a PII-266, since it had nonstandard fan connectors. Fuck Dell.


As a side note you can get a PPC motherboard from Pegasos and run PPC Linux on it( and run MacOSX on that using MoL (not legally though- violates EULA I believe, since you have to run it on Apple hardware)). So it is possible to get a non-apple "Mac"- hm... what about MacOSX on Linux on POWER4? Then again, 3D acceleration and lots of other things would be missing. See this package: http://packages.debian.org/testing/othe ... .25-power4.

[White Haven]

You have not tasted pain til you have opened a case and done four things.

1) Coughed. A lot

2) Grabbed a can of air and blown about a kiloton of dust out of the case

3) Thought to yourself, "What in the fuck is this thing I am looking at?"

4) Groaned as you thought to yourself, "Shit, I've got to FIX this."

[phongn]

On the Ars boards, I've heard horror stories about smokers who smoke next to their computers.

[White Haven]

Ugh. They were ALL true. ALL OF THEM! I don't even have to read them to know this.

[Plekhanov]

think it might well take quite a while Sony are habitual offenders at this kind of thing just look at flash memory everybody else was quite happy with smartmedia and compact flash but sony have to go and introduce memory sticks which had which advantages exactly over the alternatives?

The fact that it's used in the most popular consumer-level cameras? Seems like quite an advantage (for Memory Stick) to me.

Are they “the most popular consumer-level cameras” (Evidence that they are please)? My experience certainly wouldn’t suggest so. Even if they were the most popular cameras why would it be an advantage for them to be incompatible with everything else? MS ha no advantages over rival formats I’m aware of the carmera’s would be just as (if not more) popular if they used a non-proprietary format.

My immediate family owns 4 camera’s, 2 laptops, 2 palmtops, 1 dictaphone, 1mp3 player and numerous usb reader/writers which support either compactflash or smartmedia and no devices that support memory stick. Why would it be an advantage for us to have to by a new variation of flash memory (and a version which is considerably more expensive than the alternatives)?

The iPod was already quite popular before full support on the PC platform

Thank you for agreeing with me: There is nothing wrong with proprietary formats, and the only people that seem to think so really need to quit whining.

He wasn’t agreeing with you, the ipod may initially have been appleOS only but it always played open source files, in fact even though apple had a preferred file format (AAC) they still supported alternatives unlike sony.

What if you wanted to use your newly-compressed files elsewhere?

What if? You still have the original copy still on your computer. It's not like you can't make copies of data.

Why should you have to go to all the trouble of copying your files and waste all that space by storing them twice just because sony don’t like mp3?