Turbolaser max range

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-01 12:57pm

Number of sources appear to be in conflict (or strangely silent) about the maximum ranges of turbolasers (or ion cannons) on Imperial capital ships. One of Trek's greatest arguments is range. Know I've heard of great TL ranges coming from EU, but am looking for something definitive on weapons ranges. My assumption is that they can fire at long range, but due to massive jamming and "carrier-style" fighting in the Star Wars movies, we never see them fire at other than relatively short range.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-07-01 02:55pm

SW ships can easily carry out orbital bombardments, and in the "Rebel Dream/Rebel Stand" series, a cosmetically modified turbolaser scored a hit on a starship orbiting a planet from outside the SYSTEM.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-07-01 03:04pm

Why would there be a specific maximum range? There are so many factors involved in determining maximum effective range that no one number would work well.

Target maneuverability would be one... hitting a planet is a lot easier than hitting a moving spaceship. Jamming is also a factor, the stronger the target's jamming, the tougher it will be to know where it is.

As for dissipation or dispersion issues, it would depend on the strength of the weapon being fired. Not all turbolasers are equal. Which also means they'll have different accuracy depending on how well the specific turbolaser handles recoil. (Different models of turbolasers, made by different companies, etc.)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-07-01 03:42pm

Max effective range or max range? Max EFFECTIVE range when firing at ships traveling any decent speed(Like say factions of C) makes firing even a C speed weapon rather hard for distance shots

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-01 06:15pm

Good questions -- I'll try to narrow down my query.

HTL, MTL, and ion cannon batteries on an ISD2. Max effective range against the following, assuming target size at least the size of a Nebulan B Frigate. Assume little to no jamming from target:

Stationary target
Moving target

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-01 09:37pm

Master of Ossus wrote:SW ships can easily carry out orbital bombardments, and in the "Rebel Dream/Rebel Stand" series, a cosmetically modified turbolaser scored a hit on a starship orbiting a planet from outside the SYSTEM.

I won't know about that. Its possible that the laser in Rebel Dream was really a laser cannon, if we ignored the visible portion bit, the properties of the shot is different from that of a turbolaser, although it does match that of a superlaser quite nicely..........

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-07-01 10:05pm

PainRack wrote:I won't know about that. Its possible that the laser in Rebel Dream was really a laser cannon,

It was stated to be a turbolaser. Moreover, even if it was a laser cannon, the problems involved in targetting would be similar. Note that, at such range, even slight vibrations will send the shot off-target by kilometers. Instead, we get a focused burst for several seconds.

if we ignored the visible portion bit, the properties of the shot is different from that of a turbolaser, although it does match that of a superlaser quite nicely..........

Indeed, it was meant to mirror the properties of a superlaser blast.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 12:36pm

I have seen arguments that the max effective range of ISD HTLs is 2 km. Does anyone have cannon evidence of HTL (or lower TL) ranges?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-07-02 12:56pm

I have seen arguments that the max effective range of ISD HTLs is 2 km. Does anyone have cannon evidence of HTL (or lower TL) ranges?

Aginst what kind of target? Since they can and have hit things on the surface(Unless you want to say they desend to 2km high to provform BDZ operations)

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-07-02 12:57pm

How do they come up with 2 km then

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 01:04pm

Mr Bean wrote:Aginst what kind of target? Since they can and have hit things on the surface(Unless you want to say they desend to 2km high to provform BDZ operations)

I believe they used the 2 KM range figures in capship to capship combat.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-02 01:18pm

that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 01:55pm

Lord Revan wrote:that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.

I don't think we want to include the games, as they are not considered canon. Looking for canon (not sure if games are even "official") sources. Will accept EU (novels, comic books, AOTC cartoons).

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-02 02:01pm

jegs2 wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.
I don't think we want to include the games, as they are not considered canon. Looking for canon (not sure if games are even "official") sources. Will accept EU (novels, comic books, AOTC cartoons).

the games are offical for strory only, but point was that even the most bias data gives the turbolaser a range well over 2 km (over 6 km to exact since capships can shoot each others before you're in range to lock in your torps even when leaving from one of those ships)

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-02 02:41pm

Lord Revan wrote:that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.

Those ranges seem rather sparse -- yet another reason to throw game data out the window. If I remember correctly, the games also demonstrate that a snub fighter has the ability to take out an ISD by destroying a sensor globe too.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-02 02:45pm

jegs2 wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.
Those ranges seem rather sparse -- yet another reason to throw game data out the window. If I remember correctly, the games also demonstrate that a snub fighter has the ability to take out an ISD by destroying a sensor globe too.

like I said a biased source, the most biased source apart from trekkie fantasy

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-02 07:46pm

FYI the weapon from Rebel Dream Rebel Stand was not stated as being a Turbo Laser. Wedge specificaly said that a "Laser Battery" was fired. Now some people have assumed this to be a Turbo Laser and HDS claims to have talked to Allston about the example and that the TL was enlongated and fired at light speed (less intensity, more speed).

As for the range of TLs. Their range is dependent on the battle situations. Against static targets the range of a TL is dependent on the fine point accuracy of the gun barrel. Against moving targets the accuracy is dependent on the speed of the enemy ship combined with its manuevering capabilities as compared to the speed of your TLs. Firing light speed TLs against a target that is moving a couple hundred meters a second will be very accurate even at ranges of 20 light seconds. Firing light speed TLs against ships moving at high percentages of C with high capability manuevering will actualy have to occur at ranges much closer to 1 light second and depending upon lead time and required weapon firepower (elongated light speed TLs being much less powerful then normal) you may very well be fighting at visible ranges for maximimized firepower.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-02 07:47pm

Lord Revan wrote:
jegs2 wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:that's funny since even in the X-Wing computer games (biased in favor of starfighters) capships fight in ranges of 6+ km and fighter has max range of 2.5 km for guns and 6 km for torps.
Those ranges seem rather sparse -- yet another reason to throw game data out the window. If I remember correctly, the games also demonstrate that a snub fighter has the ability to take out an ISD by destroying a sensor globe too.
like I said a biased source, the most biased source apart from trekkie fantasy

Not all Trekkie fantasy includes handicapping Star Wars. Please take that into account.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-02 07:50pm

"Effective range" is a bit of a tricky subject of discussion in any case. How many F-14 Tomcats actually scored kills at the theoretical >100 mile effective range of the Phoenix missile throughout the Tomcat's entire service history?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-02 07:56pm

Combat Range will always be shorter then Effective Maximum and Maximum Range. While many hits will be shorted in the Effective Maximum range and some will be scored at Maximum Range, most will be scored at ranges less then half of the Effective Range.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-07-02 09:25pm

Darth Wong wrote:"Effective range" is a bit of a tricky subject of discussion in any case. How many F-14 Tomcats actually scored kills at the theoretical >100 mile effective range of the Phoenix missile throughout the Tomcat's entire service history?

None. I'm not even sure if any AIM-54 kills were made by the USN, for that matter.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-02 09:28pm

phongn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:"Effective range" is a bit of a tricky subject of discussion in any case. How many F-14 Tomcats actually scored kills at the theoretical >100 mile effective range of the Phoenix missile throughout the Tomcat's entire service history?
None. I'm not even sure if any AIM-54 kills were made by the USN, for that matter.

I seem to recall that the only kills made by Tomcats were actually on Libyan MiGs at ranges under 5km with Sidewinders. Yet the theoretical air-to-air missile range of an F-14 was still >100miles.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-07-02 09:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:
phongn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:"Effective range" is a bit of a tricky subject of discussion in any case. How many F-14 Tomcats actually scored kills at the theoretical >100 mile effective range of the Phoenix missile throughout the Tomcat's entire service history?
None. I'm not even sure if any AIM-54 kills were made by the USN, for that matter.
I seem to recall that the only kills made by Tomcats were actually on Libyan MiGs at ranges under 5km with Sidewinders. Yet the theoretical air-to-air missile range of an F-14 was still >100miles.

Incorrect, at least one of those MiGs was killed by a Sparrow. In defense of the Phoenix, I don't think a single one of them was ever fired at a live target so their actual performance remains indeterminate.
Not that that detracts from your point, I just felt that with me being a devoted fan of the 'Harpoon/Harpoon Classic' game the AIM-54 deserved some backup

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-03 02:14am

What exactly are you asking? The range at which mean scatter is larger than the target? The range at which propagation time is too long to hit a maneuveuring target? The range at which divergence reduces the effectiveness of the blast below some threshold?

We know they can hit point targets from orbit, so against relatively stationary or predictable targets they have ranges of at least tens of thousands of klicks. Their range against fighters etc is obviously much shorter, due to the different factors involved.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-07-03 12:57pm

Stark wrote:What exactly are you asking? The range at which mean scatter is larger than the target? The range at which propagation time is too long to hit a maneuveuring target? The range at which divergence reduces the effectiveness of the blast below some threshold?

Assuming the question is directed to me, want to know sources (canon, official, or EU) wherein an ISD (or any Imperial ship) could be shown to be firing TL batteries and hitting (other starship) targets at long distances. To date, from what I've seen, Imperial ships firing TL batteries during ship to ship combat did so only from a relatively short range (tens of KM at most, vice thousands).