Fun with superlasers

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His Divine Shadow
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Mr Bean wrote:
BTW, I do not remember this, if that is so, then why is it not so for droid-dekas and ships?
Because LoS agian they where OVER the City, Remeber the Fighters and Anakins little trip? They flew UP at the Control ship, not around the planet
The control ship was over the palace
I have zero idea what you are talking about, it makes no sense, again, huh?

What does the city and control ship having anything to do with shield projecting having LOS limitations?
If that was so I do not see how the spherical one piece droid deka shield could envelope the droids or how ships can have hullhugging shields.
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Post by nightmare »

I find this quote from starwars.com a bit more realistic than the "blow up a continent" thing.

"A new but ultimately ill-fated generation of Eclipse- and Sovereignclass Star Destroyers featured axial superlasers that, while not able to obliterate a planet, could sear a planet's entire surface."[/i]
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Post by hvb »

Just to confuse issues further: mr. bigs calc is done on the 2/3 of the full (minimal estimate, Saxton) DS1; Mr. Bean says later it is 2/3 of 1 of 8 (sounds kind of borg'ish to me :lol: ) beams in the main weapon.
this would give:
Eclipse/Soveriegn superweapon output: 1e38 J /12 = 8,3e36 J.

Since Spartan quotes that most shielded planets would loose shields & be left with 1 or more scorched continents, and Saxton says that it only takes 2,4e32 J to gravitationally unbind the planet, the laser must be very finely tuned to not blow up the planet by accident :?

Look at it: 2,4e32/8,3e36 = 0,0029% of the energy is enough to do far more then scorch! So you have to know exactly how much energy to put into that shield :roll: . One minuscule calc/programming error by a lowly fire tech, and the planet dosn't loose a continent (and learn a lesson) it blows up in sloooow motion :shock: .
The Shields must for the book Spartan quotes from (DE2?) be of the same magnitude as the super laser: 8,3e36 J capacity. More would make the superlaser unable to breach the shield in one shot, less would get the planet blown up not scorched.

It is not clear however from Spartans the text that the superlaser is supposed to achieve this result in one shot, and if we use the '3,5 frames of survival for Alderaan' calc of 7e37 J again by mr. big, the Eclipse type superlaser would need 8 shots to bring it down, then a shot at less then half-power to take out the rest of the shield + 1 continent.
(this assumes that the shield did not recharge/dissipate the energy/whatever of course, which SW shields seem to do) :(
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

I'd like to note that the darksaber, wich was not very big was capable of blowing up planets too, it had the same firepower as the first DS SL infact.

I dunno how big the Darksaber was, IIRC it was around the lenght of an SSD, but I could be wrong on that one
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Post by Spartan »

hvb wrote:
It is not clear however from Spartans the text that the superlaser is supposed to achieve this result in one shot, and if we use the '3,5 frames of survival for Alderaan' calc of 7e37 J again by mr. big, the Eclipse type superlaser would need 8 shots to bring it down, then a shot at less then half-power to take out the rest of the shield + 1 continent.
(this assumes that the shield did not recharge/dissipate the energy/whatever of course, which SW shields seem to do)
Excellent observations but let's clear a few things up:

1. Controlling the output of the superlaser in not really an issue. We see the DS2 down scale it shots from a minimum on 1E38 J to at most 1E25J. Mon Cals have shielding roughly equivalent to an ISD. In the film the explosion is just enough to consume the liberty. Ie its not E13 times more powerful, there would have been no rebel or imperial fleet after such a discharge.

Controlling the output is actually very easy; the ESD needs time to charge the superlaser. So the reactors are running at peak and topping off the power cells. We know that this must be so because the ESD’s hypermatter reactor is many time smaller that the DS reactors (this also indicates that despite their advances the recharge rate can‘t be anywhere near DS level). The answer then is Simple; don't tap all the power cells when you fire.

2. Determining the shield output is not a problem either. Here is a quote from the EGW&T on Torpedo Spheres:
The Sphere enters orbit around the world and uses its thousands of DERs (Dedicated Energy Receptors) designed to analysis shield emissions to find weak points in the shield. These weak points rarely exceed a 20% power drop, but that is sufficient enough for the Sphere to bring down the planetary shields.

The proton torpedo tubes are arranged in an inverted conical formation. Surrounding these torpedo tubes are 10 turbolaser batteries. It takes nearly one hundred heavy weapon technicians to co-ordinate the torpedo tubes. The target area rarely exceeds 6 meters square. The hole is a power surge that only lasts for a few microseconds. If the turbolasers have not made their shots in time, if there is a mistake in calculations or the gunnery crews are even slightly off, the process of analysis, bombardment and targeting must be repeated all over again.

The most difficult step of the process is exactly determining where the shield generators are located. Unfortunately sensors cannot penetrate the full planetary shields, so the crew of the Torpedo Sphere must study the power waves within the shield to determine where the initial power is coming from, once found the Sphere will launch a volley of torpedoes at the target area causing a hole for a brief period, where the turbolaser shots will pass through and destroy the shield generator to bring down the planetary shields.
So we know that dedicated sensors exist solely for the purpose of determining planetary shield capacities, and that these sensors study the power waves within the shield. Further they are so sensitive that they can locate individual shield generator by there output and target them.

3. Watch ANH again the chain leading up to the firing of the superlaser.; passes through many technicians and officers all the way up to the vessels captain, who needs Grand Moff level authorization to discharge the weapon. Think about how strategic missiles are handled, and how many checks and authentications are required to launch. Further the gunners who work the superlaser are describe in the Deathstar sourcebook as the finest in the galaxy, I'm sure that reps not just from pointing and clicking.

4. It’s possible but unlikely that the ESD might need to two shot at a planetary shield. The recharge rate can't be anywhere near that of DS2, which recharged at minimum 8 times faster than DS1 did. Even if the ESD recharged in one hour (doubtful there are tremendous amount of waste heat that need to be radiated, and a low surface area to do it from), I doubt that the ships systems could fire eight consecutive shot. The ESD might not have enough fuel for that many shots; we're talking about a strategic weapon after all.

Finally, from the torpedo sphere quote that you can locally breach a planetary shield if you hit a 6-meter area with enough power and strike the planets surface. I haven't measured the diameter of the ESD superlaser iris; but it should be able to concentrate its fire on a small enough area to breach the shield, without resorting to planet killer level firepower.

5. Lastly the quote I reference is From the Dark Empire Sourcebook p 88.
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Post by AL »

i would have to say that going by the on screen data, that a dsI or II is strong enough to destroy a planet, with shields up or down or none at all, how strong the beams are or the power generated i don't know in numbers but i would say its high because it destroys planets.

I would imagine the power released from an exploding planet is rather high.
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Post by AL »

hey you know this shows us something the trekies who insist that the sw universe is based on fusion power alone are just full of shit, the huge reactor of the ds is not fusion based. Just something to think about
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Post by Spartan »

Hypermatter > Antimatter

By the way, death star does use fusion as part of the Hypermatter reaction process.
SW2ICS p. 3

"Power Sources
Most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter annihilation cores. The interiors of the mighties war vessels are dominated by huge reactors cores and ultra-dense fuel silos, which enable them to perform massive planetary bombardments and sustain hours of thousand-G accelerations before refuelling."
See this link for more info on hypermatter and hypermatter reactors:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=3457
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Post by AL »

Spartan wrote:Hypermatter > Antimatter

By the way, death star does use fusion as part of the Hypermatter reaction process.
SW2ICS p. 3

"Power Sources
Most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter annihilation cores. The interiors of the mighties war vessels are dominated by huge reactors cores and ultra-dense fuel silos, which enable them to perform massive planetary bombardments and sustain hours of thousand-G accelerations before refuelling."
See this link for more info on hypermatter and hypermatter reactors:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=3457
perhaps i'm not getting it but hypermatter implies that there is annihilation process thats not consistent with fusion power where matter is turned into something else like hydrogen to helieum IE our sun

Anti matter or hypermatter would be the combination of matter and anti matter coming into contact to destroy each other and then that energy is harnessed and used for whatever blowing up a planet maybe but fusion power wouldnt be strong enough to do that

I could be wrong who knows
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

Well, we don't know what hypermatter is, though I'm guessing hypermatter is just a name for ultra-high-density antimatter.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Or, as I've theorized, hypermatter annihialation not only works as a MA/AM system but also lets in energy from hyperspace into real-space, the end result being not just a 100% energy gain but also some "more" so to speak.

SW hyperspace is apparently filled with energy and ships inside it needs to be protected from it by a special energy shield or they'd be destroyed.
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Post by Spartan »

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:
Well, we don't know what hypermatter is, though I'm guessing hypermatter is just a name for ultra-high-density antimatter.
I doubt that it's antimatter; since most ships use HM reactors according to ICS, and we have canon and EU examples of ships (x-wings, the falcon ect.) being refueled. In Jedi Knight and the X-wing novels they refer to combustible liquids.

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Or, as I've theorized, hypermatter annihialation not only works as a MA/AM system but also lets in energy from hyperspace into real-space, the end result being not just a 100% energy gain but also some "more" so to speak.

SW hyperspace is apparently filled with energy and ships inside it needs to be protected from it by a special energy shield or they'd be destroyed.
My pet theory is that the reactor contains hypermatter field conduits (see the Ep1:ICS) that accelerate normal matter. Matter is inherently non-stable, even protons decay over long enough periods (think radioactive half-life). Accelerating the fuel to extreme HS velocities within the core would accelerate the decay process. The result would be whatever matters is introduce into the chamber, rapidly devolves into EM (gamma rays mostly). Making elemental particles decompose into energy could be termed as annihilation. Since fusion can also mean melting, it could explain the fusion systems as well. The Implosion core might be what keeps the hyper-accelerated fuel orbiting within the reactor vessel. If the reaction rate is fast enough it should produce plenty of power; given the fact that we are dealing with fuel stored at neutronium densities.

Or Not. :D
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Hypermatter and the Strange quark

Post by omegaLancer »

Seem that Hypermatter does already exist. Matter composed of strange Quarks are refered to by particle Physicist as Hypermatter.

Such matter take many form, one form be negative charge would consume, protons and nuetrons, and converting them to strange quarks ( releasing energy in the process) forming a highily stable ( more stable than normal matter) mass..

strange Quarks being heavier than Down and up quarks of Protons and nuetron, would form atom like structure that are manytime more massive than Nuetronium, also occupy a very small volume.

along with strange quarks there is anti strange quark, so a form of anti strange matter can be created. So we can have the matter antimatter reaction take place..

It funny that Fusion process is said to control hypermatter reaction, since only in high temperature ( like the one that form Quark plasma) would Strange matter be unstable, vaporizing into nuetron and Protons..

It no wonder that the Death star requires no fuel tanks. A single Speck of a Stranglet wold weight thousands of tons.. Just dump normal matter into it and watch it grow, then combine it with a anti stranglet mass and you get a massive burst of Gamma ray energy..
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Post by Spartan »

omegaLancer wrote:
Seem that Hypermatter does already exist. Matter composed of strange Quarks are refered to by particle Physicist as Hypermatter.

Such matter take many form, one form be negative charge would consume, protons and nuetrons, and converting them to strange quarks ( releasing energy in the process) forming a highily stable ( more stable than normal matter) mass..

strange Quarks being heavier than Down and up quarks of Protons and nuetron, would form atom like structure that are manytime more massive than Nuetronium, also occupy a very small volume.

along with strange quarks there is anti strange quark, so a form of anti strange matter can be created. So we can have the matter antimatter reaction take place..

It funny that Fusion process is said to control hypermatter reaction, since only in high temperature ( like the one that form Quark plasma) would Strange matter be unstable, vaporizing into nuetron and Protons..

It no wonder that the Death star requires no fuel tanks. A single Speck of a Stranglet wold weight thousands of tons.. Just dump normal matter into it and watch it grow, then combine it with a anti stranglet mass and you get a massive burst of Gamma ray energy..
Interesting. So the neutronium density fuel would only serve as propellant for the ion drives and not fuel for the reactor. Most ICS depictions of Ion engines imply just that.

Do you have any link on this?
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Hypermatter

Post by omegaLancer »

his a pretty indepth web site dealing with Hypermatter and strangelet...
http://www.th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~ ... r/ger.html.

Actual neutronium can be used as a fuel also, by a process called neutrino induces fission, it not as effective as annihilation of Hypermatter and antihypermatter or even the the conversion of Proton and Nuetron to Stranglet, but it is believed to be a possible source of gamma burst...
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oops try this link instead

Post by omegaLancer »

Oops for some reason the first link doesnot work so use this instead:

http://www.th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~ ... r/ger.html
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Post by Andras »

Spartan wrote:Well... lets see if the DS1 superlaser output is 1E38J and the lets say the Alderan planetary shield resisted to 1/100th of a second. Then the shield resisted at least 1E36W. :shock: But the superlaser blast would still punch through with 9.9E37J. Ouch!

Assuming that capital ship superlasers have 2/3 the energy of the DS, then we get 6.7E37J vs. the 1E36W planetary shield which would punch through with 6.6E37J. Again ouch!

Now here's the rub Alderan supposedly had planetary shields as strong as Courscant or Byss. So either the 2/3 figure is to far high (and mind the 1/2 figure at 5E37J is too). Or the shields on Alderan were above average and not the apex of shield technology.

Alternately if we assume a planetary shield capital ship superlasers merely punch through shields then the minimum would be a shade over 1E36J.

Add that to Mike planet killer calcs. for the Eclipse (which doesn't included the energy require to penetrate a planetary shield):

...the energy requirement for vaporizing an entire continent is well in excess of the threshold for a global extinction event (1E9 megatons). Figures in the range of 1E10-1E11 megatons are probably more realistic


1E36J added to 4.2E26J and viola! 1.00000000042E36J (So so after penetrating the shields frying a few continents is nothing.)

Mind you in the superlaser in this calc is now only a little over 1/100 th the power of the DS superlaser.

Problem here, the 1e38 is the power actually delivered to Alderaan. Alderaan could have had shields of 1e40 and the DS delivered 1e40+1e38.


also, 1e38 is overkill by about a million times over, so if the Sov ASL had 1/12th of that, it would still kill the planet.


I currently think that the writers were lazy and that the best way to fit the 2/3 figure is to apply it to the exponent, AxialSL = 1e(38* 2/3) or about 2.14e25 (.66rt 1e38) or 5.1 million Gt
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Sorry if this has been addressed, but where did it say that the Soveriegn-class (which never completed its development) is twice as powerful as the Eclipse and fires more frequently, Bean? That makes no sense, the Soveriegn was to be the generic replacement for the Executor-class, a scaled-down Eclipse. The Eclipse-class was to serve only Palpatine and perhaps his highest underlings (perhaps Jedi Skywalker was slated to have the Eclipse II passed to his command as it was likely in construction and Palpatine at that time still had his Eclipse?).
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Andras wrote:Problem here, the 1e38 is the power actually delivered to Alderaan. Alderaan could have had shields of 1e40 and the DS delivered 1e40+1e38.
Not really, we knew how long it's shields held up from visual evidence so we could use that.
I currently think that the writers were lazy and that the best way to fit the 2/3 figure is to apply it to the exponent, AxialSL = 1e(38* 2/3) or about 2.14e25 (.66rt 1e38) or 5.1 million Gt
Thats not really impressive at all, so I don't think it's very viable.
2e25j is less than what 100 ISD's could do in a single broadside, if they oriented correctly towards the planet they could do twice that, 7e25j infact.

And around a hundred ISD's were said to take around a day or so to down Coruscants planetary shields.
If they fired for a day with 10s reload time we would have around 5e29joules with my 2.5TT HTL calcs.
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