Lightsaber+shields=?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 01:26am

Howedar wrote:TPM explicitly demonstrates that typical SW metal will not survive contact with a lightsaber blade. Although of lower canon status, many SW game plots revolve partly around a metal that is partly resistant to lightsabers (note that this in and of itself is considered exceptional, ie there are no metals that are completely resistant).

TESB demonstrates that Imperial armor and/or structure (on AT-ATs) cannot resist lightsabers.

As it explicitly contradicts TPM and TESB, we can conclusively say that the fight in the DS1 in ANH does not demonstrate metal rods inside lightsabers. Whatever alternate interprtation is devised, I do not know. However, the ANH events are open to interpretation while the TPM events are not.

How is it open to interpretation? You can see the rods when the lightsabres flicker out on several occasions. There is definitely a rod in there. Whether it's metal or not is a guess, I just noticed they look metal-ish.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-02 01:58am

Please propose an explaination of what precisely they are, Gil. Particularly in light of the fact that no lightsaber-proof material has ever been hinted at, let alone seen, in any canon or official material. The heat those things put out, canonically and unequivocably demonstrated in TPM, demonstrates that no material ever seen in Star Wars could survive in there. Such a material would most certainly be in use in SW, were it to exist.

This of course ignores the rather minor problem that there's no space for a rod inside a lightsaber.

The most logical explaination is that there is not in fact a rod of any sort inside lightsabers. It must be an optical illusion of some sort, because every other piece of evidence (just as canon as ANH, I might add) makes it quite incredibly unlikely that there is a rod of any sort inside a lightsaber.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-07-02 02:29am

PainRack wrote:
nightmare wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:I've heard the matte boxes used as evidence for TIE shields before, here and on SB.com. I wasn't contesting the existance of shields themselves.
I've never seen such an argument. But in any case, AFAIK we don't use SFX glitches as evidence unconditionally. For example, I've never seen anyone claim that TIE fighters are sometimes equipped with phase cloaks..
Turbolaser passing through A-wing.

Yeah, good example. I was referring to IIRC an Interceptor passing through the MF in ROTJ.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 02:57am

Howedar wrote:Please propose an explaination of what precisely they are, Gil. Particularly in light of the fact that no lightsaber-proof material has ever been hinted at, let alone seen, in any canon or official material. The heat those things put out, canonically and unequivocably demonstrated in TPM, demonstrates that no material ever seen in Star Wars could survive in there. Such a material would most certainly be in use in SW, were it to exist.

This of course ignores the rather minor problem that there's no space for a rod inside a lightsaber.

The most logical explaination is that there is not in fact a rod of any sort inside lightsabers. It must be an optical illusion of some sort, because every other piece of evidence (just as canon as ANH, I might add) makes it quite incredibly unlikely that there is a rod of any sort inside a lightsaber.

I couldn't tell you what it's made of. That's irrelevant to the issue. What is relevant to the issue is that there is clearly something physical and solid in there, as can be clearly seen several times in ANH. I can get screenshots made, if you want, but I can assure you that is no optical illusion. That makes it canon that there is material that can survive within a lightsabre, no doubt due to the fact that it's likely the cutting instrument itself.

Besides, there are materials that can survive contact with a lightsabre. The stuff that Vader's helmet is made of, Mandelorian armor, the occasional railing and floor, several of Jabba's guards where Luke smacks them with the lightsabre like it's a stick without actually cutting them, et cetera.

Certainly the most logical explaination is to simply to declare what our own eyes can clearly see in a source that is the absolute highest canon as non existant. This is StarWars: A New Hope, for pete's sake, not some shaky novel spit up by KJA. You don't get more canon than that.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-02 03:18am

Gil Hamilton wrote: I couldn't tell you what it's made of. That's irrelevant to the issue. What is relevant to the issue is that there is clearly something physical and solid in there, as can be clearly seen several times in ANH. I can get screenshots made, if you want, but I can assure you that is no optical illusion. That makes it canon that there is material that can survive within a lightsabre, no doubt due to the fact that it's likely the cutting instrument itself.

Please do.

Besides, there are materials that can survive contact with a lightsabre. The stuff that Vader's helmet is made of, Mandelorian armor, the occasional railing and floor, several of Jabba's guards where Luke smacks them with the lightsabre like it's a stick without actually cutting them, et cetera.

I see the distinction is lost on you that in all of these instances contact was extremely brief, while some kind of magic rod inside a lightsaber will be exposed for at least minutes on end to its effects.

Certainly the most logical explaination is to simply to declare what our own eyes can clearly see in a source that is the absolute highest canon as non existant. This is StarWars: A New Hope, for pete's sake, not some shaky novel spit up by KJA. You don't get more canon than that.

Please address the rest of my post, Gil.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 02:46pm

The problem that you don't seem to be wrapping your head around is that your argument boils down to this:

1. We've never seen a material that stands up to lightsabres.
2. We see a rod in lightsabres with our own two eyes.
3. Since we don't have any experience with materials that can survive contact with lightsabres, there are no materials that can survive lightsabres.
4. Therefore, the rod we observe in 2 is not really there because it contradicts 3.

The problem is that this is flawed reasoning.

We have seen materials fail to be cut by lightsabres, loads of times, including Mandelorian armor and Vaders armor which is supposed to stop it and Jabba's hired muscle who despite Luke striking them squarely with his lightsabre on occasion, they fail to be cut in half. I'm pretty sure that the Vong has staffs that can block lightsabres, but I haven't read those stories so I don't know about them.

Secondly, even if we never have seen any example of lightsabres being stopped by anything be a lightsabre it does not logically follow that nothing can stop a lightsabre. That makes #3 a no-limits fallacy. What we do observe are rods of some material as part of the lightsabre blade, which means there clearly is a specialized material that can survive being a lightsabre for long periods of time. Just because we don't have experience with it, doesn't mean it ceases to exist. It's a bit like declaring that a really hot furnace can melt anything, then declaring tungsten to not exist because we obverse it failing to melt. Not very logical, if you ask me.

Keep in mind, also, that the rod we see is very likely the core of the lightsabre itself, not some material that the lightsabre is hitting. That's a different set of circumstances. If I have a tool made of a specific grade steel and I use it to cut a sheet of the same grade of steel, does that mean the blade of my tool cannot exist, because that grade of steel couldn't resist being cut with the tool? Of course not.

All of this aside, having a physical rod within a lightsabre makes alot of sense.

-It explains why lightsabres can stop and block each other.
-It explains why they can deflect blaster bolts.
-It explains why the characters swing the lightsabre like the balance of the sword is really forward on the handle.
-It provides a handle explaination about why the lightsabre hums and the hum kicks up when it moves - the rod is vibrating!
-Best of all, it doesn't involve declaring something that we can see in the rarified heights of StarWars canon to be non-existant due to flawed logic.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 03:21pm

Okay, Gil, fine: let's play it your way...

Where does the rod go when the lightsabre is turned off?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-02 04:25pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:We have seen materials fail to be cut by lightsabres, loads of times, including Mandelorian armor and Vaders armor which is supposed to stop it and Jabba's hired muscle who despite Luke striking them squarely with his lightsabre on occasion, they fail to be cut in half. I'm pretty sure that the Vong has staffs that can block lightsabres, but I haven't read those stories so I don't know about them.

I again point out that these are all instances of momentary resistance to lightsaber attack. That's not the same as leaving a block of material inside the blade for minutes or longer without any effect whatsoever.

Indeed, whatever magic material it is that's inside there is not even glowing.

Secondly, even if we never have seen any example of lightsabres being stopped by anything be a lightsabre it does not logically follow that nothing can stop a lightsabre. That makes #3 a no-limits fallacy. What we do observe are rods of some material as part of the lightsabre blade, which means there clearly is a specialized material that can survive being a lightsabre for long periods of time. Just because we don't have experience with it, doesn't mean it ceases to exist. It's a bit like declaring that a really hot furnace can melt anything, then declaring tungsten to not exist because we obverse it failing to melt. Not very logical, if you ask me.

Lest you miss the point, such material would undoubtedly be in widespread use if it were so resistant to thermal damage.

Keep in mind, also, that the rod we see is very likely the core of the lightsabre itself, not some material that the lightsabre is hitting. That's a different set of circumstances. If I have a tool made of a specific grade steel and I use it to cut a sheet of the same grade of steel, does that mean the blade of my tool cannot exist, because that grade of steel couldn't resist being cut with the tool? Of course not.

This is not relevant to a question of thermal properties. Both your sheet and your blade would melt at the same temperature, it'd just be a question of exposure time.

All of this aside, having a physical rod within a lightsabre makes alot of sense.

-It explains why lightsabres can stop and block each other.
-It explains why they can deflect blaster bolts.
-It explains why the characters swing the lightsabre like the balance of the sword is really forward on the handle.
-It provides a handle explaination about why the lightsabre hums and the hum kicks up when it moves - the rod is vibrating!
-Best of all, it doesn't involve declaring something that we can see in the rarified heights of StarWars canon to be non-existant due to flawed logic.

1. Yes, it does.
2. No, it does not. No other material has demonstrated reflectivity of blaster bolts at anything but very oblique angles. If there were a material that were completely resistant to blasters (never mind that you accuse me of the no-limits fallacy), why would it not be used on the outside of ships, for armor, and so forth?
3. I would ask you to provide evidence that they are swinging something with a massive blade through analysis of the film.
4. Your explaination requires additional complexity in your theory, in that your rod now must vibrate. Please explain why the rod would vibrate in any reasonable design.
5. As I have demonstrated, the existance of a solid rod inside a lightsaber directly contradicts many other canon lightsaber appearances.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-07-02 04:41pm

While we're on the subject of SFX glitches, has anyone seen a specs sheet on the Imperial Tennis-Shoe-class heavy cruiser? I hear it's absolutely /bristling/ with turbolasers, but I've never seen specs on it. Still, we know they have one in the high-level-canon Star Wars universe, it's seen on-screen in RotJ, yes?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 04:46pm

Actually, the shoe is supposed to be among the Rebel fleet earlier in RotJ, but I've never seen the damn thing. The only shoe I know of is part of the asteroid field in ESB.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 05:00pm

Howedar wrote:I again point out that these are all instances of momentary resistance to lightsaber attack. That's not the same as leaving a block of material inside the blade for minutes or longer without any effect whatsoever.

Indeed, whatever magic material it is that's inside there is not even glowing.

That's because you've missed the point. The rod isn't inside the blade, it is the blade.

Lest you miss the point, such material would undoubtedly be in widespread use if it were so resistant to thermal damage.

You miss the point again, if it is the blade and it's cutting power is a result of the lightsabres design, then it's not being effected by the lightsabre, it is the lightsabre. Besides, in the ANH novelization, it says that the blade emits no heat.

This is not relevant to a question of thermal properties. Both your sheet and your blade would melt at the same temperature, it'd just be a question of exposure time.

The problem is that you are assuming that it's just a rod that is in the middle of the lightsabre bladre, rather than the physical core of the blade itself.

2. No, it does not. No other material has demonstrated reflectivity of blaster bolts at anything but very oblique angles. If there were a material that were completely resistant to blasters (never mind that you accuse me of the no-limits fallacy), why would it not be used on the outside of ships, for armor, and so forth?

Sure it does. The material itself doesn't have to deflect the blaster bolt, but it's shielding (the glowing part of the lightsabre) could easily, something we've seen shielded materials do in the past.

I suppose you are going to explain now how a lightsabre without a physical center can deflect blaster bolts, right?

3. I would ask you to provide evidence that they are swinging something with a massive blade through analysis of the film.

It's not a massive blade, but the way they use their lightsabres clearly show that the balance of the weapon is well toward the front of the handle, which wouldn't make very much sense if the blade was massless, now would it?

4. Your explaination requires additional complexity in your theory, in that your rod now must vibrate. Please explain why the rod would vibrate in any reasonable design.

Vibrating edges make excellent cutting tools. In fact they have them in StarWars. Remember vibrablades?

5. As I have demonstrated, the existance of a solid rod inside a lightsaber directly contradicts many other canon lightsaber appearances.

You've demonstrated who killed cock robin. All you've done is used some fuzzy speculation and a no-limits fallacy to try and demonstrate something we can clearly see in the highest canon source you can get doesn't really exist, not to mention managed to miss the point of what I'm saying. It's not my fault if you cannot suspend disbelief and acknowledge what we clearly see.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 05:02pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Okay, Gil, fine: let's play it your way...

Where does the rod go when the lightsabre is turned off?

Telescopes back into the handle. You'll notice that the blade never actually winks on and off into existance, but extends and retracts back into the handle exactly like a telescoping rod would.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 05:04pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, the shoe is supposed to be among the Rebel fleet earlier in RotJ, but I've never seen the damn thing. The only shoe I know of is part of the asteroid field in ESB.

There was a potato in there too.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-07-02 05:07pm

Well, any rebellion uses captured gear from their enemies, so I figure their Tennis-Shoe-class was probably captured from a raid on an Impie fleet depot of some sort.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-02 05:30pm

Gil, I'm still waiting on those screenshots.

Gil Hamilton wrote: That's because you've missed the point. The rod isn't inside the blade, it is the blade.

You seem to have changed your theory, since otherwise you would not have continued to argue the point of resistance of materials to lightsabers. Please refrain from changing your theory and then being antagonistic about it in the future.

You miss the point again, if it is the blade and it's cutting power is a result of the lightsabres design, then it's not being effected by the lightsabre, it is the lightsabre. Besides, in the ANH novelization, it says that the blade emits no heat.

No, but some part of blade does indeed heat things as seen in TPM.

The problem is that you are assuming that it's just a rod that is in the middle of the lightsabre bladre, rather than the physical core of the blade itself.

Since you'd never stated otherwise, it was a resonable assumption. But that's neither here nor there...

Sure it does. The material itself doesn't have to deflect the blaster bolt, but it's shielding (the glowing part of the lightsabre) could easily, something we've seen shielded materials do in the past.

Now you're back to explaining why the rod is poking out of the shielding.

Your theory does not explain the metal thing whatever any better than the conventional one.

I'd also point out that no shield has ever been seen to glow in the way that a lightsaber does.

It's not a massive blade, but the way they use their lightsabres clearly show that the balance of the weapon is well toward the front of the handle, which wouldn't make very much sense if the blade was massless, now would it?

I see you do not understand the meaning of the word massive, ie possessing mass. Be that as it may, you still have not demonstrated that the point of balance is anywhere but in the hilt. You have merely asserted that it is so.

Not at all. Vibrating edges make excellent cutting tools. In fact they have them in StarWars. Remember vibrablades?

But wait, I thought the shielding did the cutting? Please make up your mind, Gil.

You've demonstrated who killed cock robin. All you've done is used some fuzzy speculation and a no-limits fallacy to try and demonstrate something we can clearly see in the highest canon source you can get doesn't really exist, not to mention managed to miss the point of what I'm saying. It's not my fault if you cannot suspend disbelief and acknowledge what we clearly see.

You've presented an alternate theory that does not in any way explain the problem. You're back at the starting line, you're just riding a different horse.

As an aside, on the movie prop, I'm not seeing a great deal of evidence for any sort of rod coming out.
One
Two

Note that the narrowest part of the saber is rather narrower than the apparent "rod" present in Obi-Wan's saber.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-07-02 05:49pm

Gil: Anta baka?

I can't believe you're really taking that glitch as truth, please tell me it isn't so and some wacky person has hijacked your account.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 05:57pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Gil: Anta baka?

I can't believe you're really taking that gitch as truth, please tell me it isn't so and some wacky person has hijacked your account.

This is actually the second time he's decided to launch a nonsensical attack on SoD that I know of.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 06:05pm

Howedar wrote:Gil, I'm still waiting on those screenshots.

Big ones will take a few days, once I get access to a friends video capture equipment. However, their main purpose is to show that there is an honest-to-god rod there, one which casts a shadow and everything, since you seem to think I'm lying and there is no object visible at all. I do have a small image of what I'm talking about, but I'd perfer a big screenshot where you can see everything.

You seem to have changed your theory, since otherwise you would not have continued to argue the point of resistance of materials to lightsabers. Please refrain from changing your theory and then being antagonistic about it in the future.

I haven't changed theories at all, but I have elaborated on the one I've already had. There clearly is a rod there and I've elaborated that I think in an in-universe context that it is the physical portion of the blade itself. This isn't changing theories, it's being more descriptive.

No, but some part of blade does indeed heat things as seen in TPM.

Via interaction with the material no doubt. I thought Spanky covered that in another thread about lightsabres, about material shearing generating heat.

Since you'd never stated otherwise, it was a resonable assumption. But that's neither here nor there...

It's not there, but it is here. Why else would the rod be there if it wasn't part of the blade? Just hanging out?

Now you're back to explaining why the rod is poking out of the shielding.

Nope, it's the shield flickering out in places, not that the rod is poking out if it.

Your theory does not explain the metal thing whatever any better than the conventional one.

Sure it does. I think the lightsabre blade is a telescoping rod which emits a energy field and vibrates to allow tremendous cutting power and cause heating effects in objects.

I'd also point out that no shield has ever been seen to glow in the way that a lightsaber does.

The shield doors in TPM glow visibly.

I see you do not understand the meaning of the word massive, ie possessing mass. Be that as it may, you still have not demonstrated that the point of balance is anywhere but in the hilt. You have merely asserted that it is so.

How exactly can I do any different? Unless you are accusing me of lying, of course, which I have no reason to do.

But wait, I thought the shielding did the cutting? Please make up your mind, Gil.

If there is a rod emitting a shield and it is vibrating, wouldn't the shield vibrate with it?

You've presented an alternate theory that does not in any way explain the problem. You're back at the starting line, you're just riding a different horse.

I haven't changed theories, I've elaborated on the one I already have. All of this is irrelevant, since anyone with eyeballs can see the damn thing themselves.

As an aside, on the movie prop, I'm not seeing a great deal of evidence for any sort of rod coming out.
One
Two

Note that the narrowest part of the saber is rather narrower than the apparent "rod" present in Obi-Wan's saber.

Not really. The rod isn't that wide.

Besides, according to your theory, this isn't there:

Oh yes, not there at all, huh?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-02 06:10pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Gil: Anta baka?

I can't believe you're really taking that glitch as truth, please tell me it isn't so and some wacky person has hijacked your account.

It happens several times in ANH and besides, a rod within a lightsabre blade makes alot of sense (it would explain quite a bit). Besides, I'm just suspending disbelief, unlike Spanky and Howader, who refuse to.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:This is actually the second time he's decided to launch a nonsensical attack on SoD that I know of.

I'm not attacking SoD, I'm defending it. You are the one refusing to suspend disbelief here, since you are arguing that what we can clearly see isn't really there.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 06:15pm

Gil, what about descriptions of the blade having no mass, and that when thrown, the weapon spins not with its centre of mass not at ~1/3 the length of the blade but at the halfway point along the length of the handle?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-02 06:22pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Gil, what about descriptions of the blade having no mass, and that when thrown, the weapon spins not with its centre of mass not at ~1/3 the length of the blade but at the halfway point along the length of the handle?

plus the fact there's near instant ignittíon of blade at least in ANH and IIRC in TPM also.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-07-02 06:23pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Gil, what about descriptions of the blade having no mass, and that when thrown, the weapon spins not with its centre of mass not at ~1/3 the length of the blade but at the halfway point along the length of the handle?

When a jedi throws his lightsaber, doesn't he use the Force to direct it as opposed to it simply being a physical throw?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 06:29pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Gil: Anta baka?

I can't believe you're really taking that glitch as truth, please tell me it isn't so and some wacky person has hijacked your account.
It happens several times in ANH and besides, a rod within a lightsabre blade makes alot of sense (it would explain quite a bit). Besides, I'm just suspending disbelief, unlike Spanky and Howader, who refuse to.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:This is actually the second time he's decided to launch a nonsensical attack on SoD that I know of.
I'm not attacking SoD, I'm defending it. You are the one refusing to suspend disbelief here, since you are arguing that what we can clearly see isn't really there.

You are not suspending disbelief: you are twisting its application in a dogmattic manner.

To use the same application that you are using, I would have to also conclude that you adhere to the following:

R2-D2 is some form of cyborg because a human eye can be seen inside his main sensor a couple of times during ANH.

Leia is strong enough to crush metal with her bare hands because one of the pipes in the garbage smasher scrunches up when she grabs onto it in ANH.

Wookiees' have padding on the soles of their feet that look like shoe treds because of the soles of chewbacca's feet while running in Cloud City in ESB.

The A-wing that crashed into Executor's bridge suddenly turned into an Earth automobile after impact in RotJ.

Among others, of course.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-07-02 06:33pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Gil, what about descriptions of the blade having no mass, and that when thrown, the weapon spins not with its centre of mass not at ~1/3 the length of the blade but at the halfway point along the length of the handle?
When a jedi throws his lightsaber, doesn't he use the Force to direct it as opposed to it simply being a physical throw?

It would be harder throw the saber if the jedi would have to make the saber rotate from some other point then its center of mass and the benefit would be irrelevant compared to cost.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-02 06:35pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Gil, what about descriptions of the blade having no mass, and that when thrown, the weapon spins not with its centre of mass not at ~1/3 the length of the blade but at the halfway point along the length of the handle?
When a jedi throws his lightsaber, doesn't he use the Force to direct it as opposed to it simply being a physical throw?

How would that affect how it spins, though? AFAIK, they only direct where it goes, not how it spins. I'm using Vader's throw at Luke in RotJ as the prrimary reference.

Backstage information, but the actual prop sabres were also weighed so that their centres of mass were halfway along the handle rather than in the blade.