Lancer Frigate vs Enterprise E

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-06-26 02:22pm

2.8 times more...
Ah, the imaginary isoton...sigh.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-06-28 12:56am

tjhairball wrote:

My reasons aren't completely transparent? Dear me, I guess I'll have to explain them eventually.

And I will. My apologies, but I have some other stuff I want to nail down before I go into details, and some serious posting to catch up on back in my home forums. As engaging a place these wee forums and their much smaller counterparts are... well, I can't spend all my time here and there.

You can't explain your reasons? It doesn't take long to type 'blah blah weapon output, blah blah shielding, blah blah tactical advantages'.

Further, your sanctimonious crap is just that: crap. If your posts consist of 'I have my reasons', then it shouldn't take long to catch up on your posting on your game board. I don't get alot of time to post here even occasionally, but I try to at least finish my discussions before I leave. However, thanks for giving me a new term: board elitist. A new form of ignorance every day! I learnt everything I need to know about morons on SD.Net, etc etc.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-06-28 08:16am

Knife wrote:Has anyone done calcs for a Soveriegn 'alpha strike'?

Cleaned from alfa to alpha

I think that would be 8 photon torpedoes, 4 quantums from the turret and a number of type 12 phaser arrays. I read the Sov specs on DITL a long time back so my memory is hazy. Correct me if wrong.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-28 09:32pm

Just to refresh my memory, alpha strike is firing all weapons at full power?

For a Soveriegn wouldn't that be 8 photon torpedoes, 4 quantum torpedoes from the turret, and 12 Type 10 phaser arrays (16 on the refit).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-28 09:35pm

Haze Gray wrote:Just to refresh my memory, alpha strike is firing all weapons at full power?

For a Soveriegn wouldn't that be 8 photon torpedoes, 4 quantum torpedoes from the turret, and 12 Type 10 phaser arrays (16 on the refit).

Well it's that in one hit.

Literally an Alpha Strike is all the weapons one can optimaly can bring into bear on a target at full power in the span usually dicatated around 5-10 seconds.

tjhairball · Post by **tjhairball** » 2004-06-28 10:55pm

Stark wrote:You can't explain your reasons? It doesn't take long to type 'blah blah weapon output, blah blah shielding, blah blah tactical advantages'.

Further, your sanctimonious crap is just that: crap. If your posts consist of 'I have my reasons', then it shouldn't take long to catch up on your posting on your game board. I don't get alot of time to post here even occasionally, but I try to at least finish my discussions before I leave. However, thanks for giving me a new term: board elitist. A new form of ignorance every day! I learnt everything I need to know about morons on SD.Net, etc etc.

Have some patience. I said I'd explain my reasons in time, and it's only been a few days. I haven't left and the thread hasn't gotten buried. As far as my priorities... I'll readily admit it time and time again. Arguing about Star Wars and Star Trek online is pretty low on my list of priorities - even my recreational online priorities.

My reasoning for the Enterprise E is actually argument by extension; I assume that UFP ships get more dangerous for their size as time goes on in the Trek universe; I assume that Lancer frigates don't have a firepower/size and shield/size ratio much superior to ISDs.

See other thread for details on that; I suppose I'll post the rough sketch I've written up, although it's fairly lazy work and also not entirely complete. However, if you'd taken the time to think about the implications of this thread, which I so uncontroversially posted a couple days previous to stating that I "had my reasons" for picking the Enterprise NCC-1701E over a Lancer Frigate, you shouldn't be surprised at all. That's why I said my reasons ought to be clear. Now I'm going to post some of the base implications of it. I'm relying entirely too heavily on the work of others for the current figures cited, but I suppose the gist of the argument should still follow for most.

tjhairball · Post by **tjhairball** » 2004-06-28 10:59pm

(i.e., click here and then add the note that the Enterprise E and Lancer Frigates aren't nearly so disparate in size as ISDs and Constitutions.)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-06-28 11:05pm

And in all that it's amazing you don't take into account the movies wherein they showed in ST6 that honestly that 90 torpedo bit is just a tad exagerrated unless of course Kang was shooting 90 torpedos...in what volleys of 40 per single torpedo flare?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-28 11:06pm

We need a Darkstar acolyte to jump in here and decry the use of EU sources to establish firepower and shields, even though the Lancer frigate is an EU invention

Anyway, given that a one man fighter can carry gigaton-level warheads in SW, I have a hard time believing that the E-E will paste even a lowly frigate.

tjhairball · Post by **tjhairball** » 2004-06-29 12:10am

Ghost Rider wrote:And in all that it's amazing you don't take into account the movies wherein they showed in ST6 that honestly that 90 torpedo bit is just a tad exagerrated unless of course Kang was shooting 90 torpedos...in what volleys of 40 per single torpedo flare?

Actually, I address that point over there. Frankly, however, I am not aware of any Trek source citing STVI as "higher canon" than TOS Season 2, although vice versa can be found.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-29 10:33am

Neither is higher canon, therefore you can't just throw out on-screen evidence from one which contradicts your point!

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-06-29 12:36pm

tjhairball wrote:
My reasoning for the Enterprise E is actually argument by extension; I assume that UFP ships get more dangerous for their size as time goes on in the Trek universe; I assume that Lancer frigates don't have a firepower/size and shield/size ratio much superior to ISDs.

a baseless assumption. The defiant is the federation's premier warship, and far more powerful than most of the Federation starships in service. Of course if you want to get into the size issue you could just as easily argue that federation ships always have demonstrated historical problems defeating anything larger than themselves on initial combats. (Borg Cubes, Romulan Warbirds, ToS planet killet, to name a few off hand).

See other thread for details on that; I suppose I'll post the rough sketch I've written up, although it's fairly lazy work and also not entirely complete. However, if you'd taken the time to think about the implications of this thread, which I so uncontroversially posted a couple days previous to stating that I "had my reasons" for picking the Enterprise NCC-1701E over a Lancer Frigate, you shouldn't be surprised at all. That's why I said my reasons ought to be clear.

you are aware that not everyone reading a thread will have read all of your other threads as well, right? Or did you just blatantly assume everyone reading this one would have read them?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-29 12:44pm

Haze Gray wrote:Just to refresh my memory, alpha strike is firing all weapons at full power?

Depends on the type of ship. For a gunship or other warship that depends on its own weapons to attack the enemy, then yes. For a carrier it refers to launching every single fighter and strike aircraft at a single target; in modern naval terms you usually hear alpha strike used in relation to carriers.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-29 12:55pm

I know what it is in relation to a carrier (I served on the cruiser San Jacinto, which was assigned to the carrier Harry S. Truman), but in Star Trek ships don't have large fighter complements, and I wasn't sure what alpha strike would refer to.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-29 12:58pm

Haze Gray wrote:I know what it is in relation to a carrier (I served on the cruiser San Jacinto, which was assigned to the carrier Harry S. Truman), but in Star Trek ships don't have large fighter complements, and I wasn't sure what alpha strike would refer to.

Yes, I figured that might be what was confusing you. The USS Iowa's alpha strike is her full broadside, just as a carrier's is her full fighter complement. It refers to the most powerful attack a warship can muster with her primary weapons system.

hvb · Post by **hvb** » 2004-06-29 01:04pm

For Trek ships I would expect an alpha strike to be composed of all weapons that can bear on a target in front of the ship (as most of the weapons can fire bow-ward).
So that would discount rear-firing & side-only firing weapons for a Trek ship (unless they re-invented a broadside combattant while I was not looking, and the Akira doesn't qualify).

Barbatis · Post by **Barbatis** » 2004-06-29 10:43pm

Lancer shields and hull arent that strong most NR ships can pick them off for fun. However they are still strong enough to repel the E-E attaks for the most part. So i am pretty sure the Lancer would win.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2004-07-08 02:54pm

Knife wrote:Has anyone done calcs for a Soveriegn 'alpha strike'?

If you use the 64/128 mt torpedos. Actually I rounded the torpedos off at 100,000TeraJ effective for PTs, and 250,000TeraJ effective for QTs. note that QTs are assumed to be 100% efficient also. Terajoules was used as the base unit for compatability with other calculations

~660mt/second with torpedo salvos time averaged if you include an add'l pair of QT tubes in the saucer (see DITL) or ~373 MT/s without.

My pre-ICS CRC Corvette estimate was ~600mt/second (4 turbolasers and 4 heavy lasers).

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-09 04:49am

Just to refresh my memory, alpha strike is firing all weapons at full power?

Yes. An alpha strike consists of all the weapons fired simeltanously at full power.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-09 04:50am

If you use the 64/128 mt torpedos. Actually I rounded the torpedos off at 100,000TeraJ effective for PTs, and 250,000TeraJ effective for QTs. note that QTs are assumed to be 100% efficient also. Terajoules was used as the base unit for compatability with other calculations

A bare minimum of 50% radiation escapes into space and does not hit the target vessel. So Quantum torpeodoes are not 100% efficient.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-09 02:02pm

evilcat4000 wrote:
If you use the 64/128 mt torpedos. Actually I rounded the torpedos off at 100,000TeraJ effective for PTs, and 250,000TeraJ effective for QTs. note that QTs are assumed to be 100% efficient also. Terajoules was used as the base unit for compatability with other calculations
A bare minimum of 50% radiation escapes into space and does not hit the target vessel. So Quantum torpeodoes are not 100% efficient.

IIRC there is a DS9 episode that states QT are focused weapons.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-07-09 02:09pm

evilcat4000 wrote:
Just to refresh my memory, alpha strike is firing all weapons at full power?
Yes. An alpha strike consists of all the weapons fired simeltanously at full power.

In the area of highest concentration of weapons, IE the most firepower a ship can bring to bear at one time

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2004-07-09 02:40pm

evilcat4000 wrote:
If you use the 64/128 mt torpedos. Actually I rounded the torpedos off at 100,000TeraJ effective for PTs, and 250,000TeraJ effective for QTs. note that QTs are assumed to be 100% efficient also. Terajoules was used as the base unit for compatability with other calculations
A bare minimum of 50% radiation escapes into space and does not hit the target vessel. So Quantum torpeodoes are not 100% efficient.

*cough* if you bothered to convert between 128mt and 250kTJ you'd find I /already/ accounted for the 50% power loss of an unfocused detonation.The 100% efficency I was talking about was in comparision to the PTs which do not consume all reactants ( appx 75% efficient).

So PT= 64MT*.5*.75* .419e15= 100.56kTJ

QT= 120*.5*.419e15= 251.4kTJ

note- I actually used 120MT for a QT, not 128.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2004-07-09 02:41pm

oh, and if it is a focused weapon, then the output is nearly 500kTJ per Quantum torpedo.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-07-09 03:13pm

Kilo-terajoules?