Will we ever have a world government?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-07-09 01:36pm

The question is a simple one but complicated by the sovereign rights of nations. Can you foresee in the near future a world government or at least the beginings of one? I DO NOT consider the UN such a body. Can nations set aside sovereign rights and their natural inclination to look out for themselves to pool together and form one world body?

Or does the dynamic of super powers and hyperpowers make this idea an impossibility as these great nations like the US and China would never willingly give up control?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-07-09 01:39pm

Stravo wrote:Can nations set aside sovereign rights and their natural inclination to look out for themselves to pool together and form one world body?

Such a gathering would be an ideal Ground Zero for a Device

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-07-09 01:42pm

It will only work when the idea of the nation-state dies.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-07-09 01:44pm

EDIT: Damn lack of an edit button...

Stravo wrote:Or does the dynamic of super powers and hyperpowers make this idea an impossibility as these great nations like the US and China would never willingly give up control?

I'd venture that the progenitor of such a world-state won't include the USA or China...

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-07-09 02:25pm

It will only work when the idea of the nation-state dies.

It might happen. City-states were the thing at one time. They passed on to Nation-states, but nation states are larger, more powerful, and well...different in some aspects. Then again, I think city-states fell due to increasing power of larger government bodies. It is not like they could stop them. I also think it was hard for them, in the west at least, to deal with the collapse of the largest city state systems, the middle ages, and the big imperial superpowers. I don't think that unless someone forces them to join a world government, they will do so voluntarily. People are too patriotic and nationalistic. I don't think they will abandon what they fought so hard for during the 18th-19th centuries.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-09 02:42pm

The only way we'll get a world government is if one hyperpower or a combination of superpowers imposes it on the rest of the world. Europe, Russia, China, and the United States aren't about to give Togo a say in how they conduct their affairs.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-07-09 03:07pm

RedImperator wrote:The only way we'll get a world government is if one hyperpower or a combination of superpowers imposes it on the rest of the world. Europe, Russia, China, and the United States aren't about to give Togo a say in how they conduct their affairs.

Britain,France and Germany give Matla a say in how they conduct their affairs.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-09 03:18pm

TheDarkling wrote:
RedImperator wrote:The only way we'll get a world government is if one hyperpower or a combination of superpowers imposes it on the rest of the world. Europe, Russia, China, and the United States aren't about to give Togo a say in how they conduct their affairs.
Britain,France and Germany give Matla a say in how they conduct their affairs.

Bad example. First, Europe self destructed twice in the 20th century, which has given it a rather different outlook on nationalism than would otherwise be expected. And second, Europe is a collection of small states joining into one large one so as to better compete with giants (the 13 original states surrendered much of their rights to a new central government under the Constitution for the same reason). Who's the outside competitor who will prompt the nations of Earth to unify? What traumatic event will make enormously powerful states like the US and China willingly give up some of that power to nations which can't possible challenge them?

And Malta does share a common European culture with Britain, France, and Germany. It's much more akin to the United States admitting, say, New Brunswick into the Union than it is to the superpowers joining a world government where they'll be significantly outnumbered by members of cultures that are significantly different from theirs.

Aeolus · Post by **Aeolus** » 2004-07-09 03:58pm

Stravo wrote:The question is a simple one but complicated by the sovereign rights of nations. Can you foresee in the near future a world government or at least the beginings of one? I DO NOT consider the UN such a body. Can nations set aside sovereign rights and their natural inclination to look out for themselves to pool together and form one world body?

Or does the dynamic of super powers and hyperpowers make this idea an impossibility as these great nations like the US and China would never willingly give up control?

Without a really pressing reason, no I can't see Worldwide goverment anytime in the forseeable future

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2004-07-09 04:17pm

I can't imagine it anytime in the near future. Maybe if the hyperpower status of nations ended and nations started banding together in more regional alliances (much like the EU, but more so) it could eventually lead to a world government. The process to and from that would take a while, though.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-07-09 04:46pm

We'll have it around the same time we have world peace, which is to say, not in my lifetime.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-07-09 05:05pm

RedImperator wrote: Bad example. First, Europe self destructed twice in the 20th century, which has given it a rather different outlook on nationalism than would otherwise be expected.

I have never really bought that idea, many of the EU nations stayed outside of the World Wars to a great extent, the "white" dominions got more involved than Sweden or Spain for example.

I think Europe’s view on nationalism is probably rather close to the baseline for nations that haven't spent most of their lifespan in relative isolation or are very young.

Look at the other EU like organisations that are popping up like ASEAN and Mercosur, both of these organisations are essentially following the EU model (both started off for trade and are already wading into political integration).

The Australians are already pushing for a Pacific union based upon the EU model.

And second, Europe is a collection of small states joining into one large one so as to better compete with giants (the 13 original states surrendered much of their rights to a new central government under the Constitution for the same reason). Who's the outside competitor who will prompt the nations of Earth to unify?

Europe hasn't just bound together to fight the US (trade-wise) but also for various advantages that are borne from cooperation (other organisations like ESA illustrate this as well).

We also have various international bodies seeking to reduce barriers between nations (the WTO, IASC and so on) because homogeneity is desirable for economic reasons.

What traumatic event will make enormously powerful states like the US and China willingly give up some of that power to nations which can't possible challenge them?

They already do that by submitting to the WTO and other such organisations and they do it because it brings benefits they want.

And Malta does share a common European culture with Britain, France, and Germany. It's much more akin to the United States admitting, say, New Brunswick into the Union than it is to the superpowers joining a world government where they'll be significantly outnumbered by members of cultures that are significantly different from theirs.

Well the cultures of a fair portion of the world is largely similar anyway (similar enough anyway) due to a good portion of it once being under European control and a fair portion of it being populated by people of European descent.
Britain has about as much in common with Greece as we do with Argentina for example.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a world government is that likely (in the near term at least) but I don't see cooperation between powerful states and weak ones being the stumbling block (Togo to the EU as in your example).

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2004-07-09 05:09pm

Maybe, maybe after we clusterfuck ourselves a few times a la the European phenomenon RedImperator mentioned. Otherwise, not until we start interacting with extraterrestrial agencies (not necessarily aliens - colonies that secede and the like). Then we would have something else to define ourselves against.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-07-09 05:19pm

If the majority of the human population was offworld, and armed, Earth would unify by necessity. Until then, I can't see us grouping into less then a few very large empires. I can see larger nations in the semi-near future, but something akin to a unified Earth nation won't happen until there is an external threat of some kind.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-07-09 05:19pm

It won't happen until we start making frequent contact with other worlds, either by finding and communicating with alien civilizations or by building independant colonies on other planets. That way the people of Earth can set aside their differences and stop fighting and bickering amongst ourselves so as to better fight and bicker with the offworlders.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-07-09 05:20pm

Heh. Looks like we both posted essentially the same thing at about the same time.

I said it better, though.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-07-09 07:05pm

A world government?

Sure, but only after one hell of a war of conquest by some nation or coalition of nations, in my opinion. Otherwise no.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-09 07:55pm

I have never really bought that idea, many of the EU nations stayed outside of the World Wars to a great extent

Off the top of my head, the only 4 EU countries that wern't directly affected by WWII (did not commit troops to combat or were never occupied by enemy forces) were Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Sweden. All the other member states experienced the horrors of that war to some extent.

Besides: Britain, France and Germany are the core members of the EU. Without their original support to the concept of the EU and it's predecessor the EEC, both organizations would have been stillborn: Even today, these 3 countries account for more than half of the total EU GDP and population.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-07-09 08:51pm

Ma Deuce wrote: Off the top of my head, the only 4 EU countries that wern't directly affected by WWII (did not commit troops to combat or were never occupied by enemy forces) were Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Sweden. All the other member states experienced the horrors of that war to some extent.

Which is why I said "to a great extent", if you are going to put occupation down as a factor in diminished nationalism then all of Europe should have been ready to unify centuries ago.

Besides: Britain, France and Germany are the core members of the EU. Without their original support to the concept of the EU and it's predecessor the EEC, both organizations would have been stillborn: Even today, these 3 countries account for more than half of the total EU GDP and population.

Britain wasn't a founding member of the EEC nor was the EEC the true birth of what would become the EU (which would be the European Coal and Steel community).

Britain set up the EFTA which was something of a failure (although those against "just free trade" in the UK seem to have overlooked what this particular piece of history would tell us) and we eventually joined the EU in 1973 (we have tried in 1961 and 1967 but De Gaulle Vetoed our application because we were evil English speaking people).

Nor does the Big three comprise more than half the EU population (200/450 set to become 480 in a couple of years) although you are correct in that they just have 1/2 of the GDP although that situation will be over within a couple of years.

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2004-07-09 09:10pm

One world government? Doubt it. I mean, think what a bureaucratic nightmare it would be.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-09 09:13pm

Which is why I said "to a great extent", if you are going to put occupation down as a factor in diminished nationalism then all of Europe should have been ready to unify centuries ago.

But after WWII there was one difference: Unlike previous eras and wars there was now a looming external threat to the security of all the nations of Western Europe: the big, bad Soviet Empire. Previously, the antagonists to European stability and security had been European countries.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-07-09 10:00pm

Ma Deuce wrote: But after WWII there was one difference: Unlike previous eras and wars there was now a looming external threat to the security of all the nations of Western Europe: the big, bad Soviet Empire. Previously, the antagonists to European stability and security had been European countries.

Russia is and always has been a European country.
They didn't wander into WW1, WW2, the Napoleonic wars, the Seven Years War and many others because they took a wrong turn by Warsaw.

That also doesn't explain a lack of nationalism, nor would it explain why former members of the big bad empire were trying to get in or people who had been fence sitters (Finland, Yugoslavia) sought EU membership.

Aeolus · Post by **Aeolus** » 2004-07-09 11:14pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:Heh. Looks like we both posted essentially the same thing at about the same time.

I said it better, though.

Yeah you really did,

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-10 02:12am

TheDarkling wrote:Russia is and always has been a European country.

Note: In the field of Geography, Russia is it's own realm, as opposed to the European Realm. And region known as Western Europe consists of France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and the Benelux countries. But thats really technical and not typical usage.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-10 02:30am

A one world goverment in the near future is unlikely. Humanity is far too much divided for it to happen.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Will we ever have a world government?

Will we ever have a world government?

Re: Will we ever have a world government?

Re: Will we ever have a world government?