The Size of the Dominion

[Alyeska]

It wouldnt be the first time that there ships are identical but different in size. The B'rel and K'Vort class bird of preys for example.

We know this because of canon DIALOGUE.

There is only one known Battleship that is 1.2 km and it was the Prototype. The Valiant exposed a flaw in its design and from the final episode it shows that there were at leat 3 or 4 of these ships in tha battle and i'm sure they were revised designs.

Incorrect. All battleships shown durring the battle footage of WYLB are of the 1.2km variety. The "flaw" in the original design was not worthy of note because it caused no damage.

You still can not provide any logical evidence of the 5km ship existing.

[Sovereign]

Incorrect. All battleships shown durring the battle footage of WYLB are of the 1.2km variety.

You have no known proof either on that. They didnt say that it was the same one. Nog didnt look up and say "Hey, thats the same ship that destroyed the Valiant." You only assume that the ship is the same size.

[Alyeska]

Incorrect. All battleships shown durring the battle footage of WYLB are of the 1.2km variety.

You have no known proof either on that. They didnt say that it was the same one. Nog didnt look up and say "Hey, thats the same ship that destroyed the Valiant." You only assume that the ship is the same size.

Its called a logical assumption. Its the exact same model and is portrayed as the exact same size. We can conclude it is the same class of ship due to these known facts.

You on the other hand can provide no supporting evidence for your claim and furthermore it flies in the face of logic.

[Sovereign]

Incorrect. All battleships shown durring the battle footage of WYLB are of the 1.2km variety.

You have no known proof either on that. They didnt say that it was the same one. Nog didnt look up and say "Hey, thats the same ship that destroyed the Valiant." You only assume that the ship is the same size.

Its called a logical assumption. Its the exact same model and is portrayed as the exact same size. We can conclude it is the same class of ship due to these known facts.

You on the other hand can provide no supporting evidence for your claim and furthermore it flies in the face of logic.

From the size of the Battlecruiser compared to the Battleship, you could line up about 5 of the Battlecruisers beside the battleship to equal its length. This comes out to about 3000+ meters.

[Alyeska]

From the size of the Battlecruiser compared to the Battleship, you could line up about 5 of the Battlecruisers beside the battleship to equal its length. This comes out to about 3000+ meters.

Something called PROOF would be nice.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Aly is probably right but the only problem I have with this is since when have FX mistakes been considered invalid? Whatever we see on screen exists, no matter if it is a visual FX mistake. That's what makes debating Sci-fi possible, if we didn't do it this way we could argue writers or FX artist intent and that would open up a whole new bag of problems.

[Darth Wong]

Aly is probably right but the only problem I have with this is since when have FX mistakes been considered invalid?

Even in real-life science, there are experimental outliers. They get classified as such for one of two reasons:

1) It can be firmly established that an error was made.
2) The effect is grossly inconsistent with other data and cannot be duplicated.

If we apply this methodology to sci-fi, we can take a scene that is firmly established to be a result of error (this is harder than it sounds; some people just like to declare that anything which contradicts their pet theories is a "mistake" and that does not come anywhere close to meeting the standard) or one which is grossly anomalous and not repeated elsewhere and declare that it's an outlier.

Of course, there will always be those who try to abuse the concept, but such is life when you argue "vs" discussions.

[Kuja]

Isn't there one such occasion where the E-D fired a phaser from its torpedo bank?

[Sarevok]

It wouldnt be the first time that there ships are identical but different in size. The B'rel and K'Vort class bird of preys for example

Actualy the Kvort looks somewhat different from the B'rel. The Kvorts wings are parallel to each other.[/u]

[Darth Wong]

Isn't there one such occasion where the E-D fired a phaser from its torpedo bank?

You could always argue that they were experimenting with something and stuck a phaser bank in the torpedo area, but one could always call it an outlier and move on. It's ultimately an inconsequential matter anyway, in the sense that no particular revelations or theories about the Star Trek universe are proven or disproven either way.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Aly is probably right but the only problem I have with this is since when have FX mistakes been considered invalid?

Even in real-life science, there are experimental outliers. They get classified as such for one of two reasons:

1) It can be firmly established that an error was made.
2) The effect is grossly inconsistent with other data and cannot be duplicated.

If we apply this methodology to sci-fi, we can take a scene that is firmly established to be a result of error (this is harder than it sounds; some people just like to declare that anything which contradicts their pet theories is a "mistake" and that does not come anywhere close to meeting the standard) or one which is grossly anomalous and not repeated elsewhere and declare that it's an outlier.

Of course, there will always be those who try to abuse the concept, but such is life when you argue "vs" discussions.

I see your point, and this Super Dreadnought does fit those two requirements.

[Howedar]

Incorrect. Look at the angle of the Vorcha beam and the size of the Vorcha. The Vorcha is only around 400 meters FYI.

481.3 meters to be accurate. But one scene of a Vorcha cannot change the proof of the others. The Dominion Battlecruiser is is 639.75 meters long, and it is Dwarfed by the Battleship as seen in this pic, which shows the Battlecruiser still ontop the Battleship.
http://www.stguardian.to/alien/dominion ... planet.jpg

Since the battlecruiser is closer to us than the battleship, we cannot accurately determine the size of one using the other. Unless you wish to claim that the OWP in that picture is kilometers wide.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Isn't there one such occasion where the E-D fired a phaser from its torpedo bank?

That battle really pisses me off. I almost think they did this because they wanted some excuse for the crew not to use photon torpedoes.

I liked how during the battle Riker orders evasive action or something and they cheat us again. "They are matching our movement" Well, so the fuck what! You'll be exposing a different shield to enemy fire, and they could open up with different phasers and line up for a rear photon shot....but noooooooooooooooooo they so loved to cheat the audience out of battles because of either them being lazy or greedy.

Is it me or did it seem like the E-D hardly ever used, or didn't use enough, photons against enemy ships that posed a significant threat. (With the Borg being the exception)

[Darth Wong]

Is it me or did it seem like the E-D hardly ever used, or didn't use enough, photons against enemy ships that posed a significant threat. (With the Borg being the exception)

My wife is no expert on military tactics, but when she watched the E-D unload on the Husnock ship in "Survivors", she commented "why don't they always do that?" Of course, I had no answer other than "they're idiots".

[Kamakazie Sith]

Is it me or did it seem like the E-D hardly ever used, or didn't use enough, photons against enemy ships that posed a significant threat. (With the Borg being the exception)

My wife is no expert on military tactics, but when she watched the E-D unload on the Husnock ship in "Survivors", she commented "why don't they always do that?" Of course, I had no answer other than "they're idiots".

Exactly. That's the same response I expected to see the first time I watched the "Children of Darmok" and STG.

[Uraniun235]

Err... weren't they just trying to disable the ship in "Darmok" rather than outright blow it apart.

Although I have to concur that ST:G's battle was unforgivably lame.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Err... weren't they just trying to disable the ship in "Darmok" rather than outright blow it apart.

Although I have to concur that ST:G's battle was unforgivably lame.

That was the intent at first, but when the ship proved to be a lethal threat to the Enterprise all the gloves should have come off right there.

In fact the moment they fired on that ship they should have been prepared to destroy it, if necessary. They weren't.

[Sidious]

Isn't there one such occasion where the E-D fired a phaser from its torpedo bank?

I think I read that the episode this happened on was the first for a new fx company. They made a massive blunder using the torpdeo bay as a phaser. What I dont get is how it made it to TV like that, someone MUST have caught it before hand. Possibly too expensive to fix and not enough time?

[Stark]

Can we learn anything about the nature of the Dominion from its fleet makeup? The fleets sent to attack the AQ were almost wholly roaches with a small number of the 700m-ish ships... obviously, they felt that this was the correct fleet composition based on their experience and intel. After the whole Odysessy debacle its not hard to see how they made their decision, although there were likely other factors.

If their fleet in GQ is organised the same way, this suggests they maintain a widely-spread military presence. Perhaps they were forced to keep the bulk of their heavies in GQ to offset some unknown threat? Or perhaps, lacking any outside threat, they simply don't have many active heavies, and were unprepared for combat in the AQ.

I think its interesting that apart from their largest ships, they appear to be on par with AQ powers in shipbuilding etc, despite being much larger and older.

[Alyeska]

Actualy there were a fairly large number of the 600-700 meter Cruisers. While the FKR Alliance had more heavy ships then the Dominion, the Dominion Cruisers outnumbered any single class of the FKR Alliance heavy ships (except maybe the Romulan warbirds).

[Stark]

Actualy there were a fairly large number of the 600-700 meter Cruisers. While the FKR Alliance had more heavy ships then the Dominion, the Dominion Cruisers outnumbered any single class of the FKR Alliance heavy ships (except maybe the Romulan warbirds).

Really? In DS9 you hardly seem to see more than 10-15 in one place. But I wasn't implying they didn't have many, merely that they had far, far more roaches, and what this suggested for their strategic expectations.

[Alyeska]

Actualy there were a fairly large number of the 600-700 meter Cruisers. While the FKR Alliance had more heavy ships then the Dominion, the Dominion Cruisers outnumbered any single class of the FKR Alliance heavy ships (except maybe the Romulan warbirds).

Really? In DS9 you hardly seem to see more than 10-15 in one place. But I wasn't implying they didn't have many, merely that they had far, far more roaches, and what this suggested for their strategic expectations.

You never saw more then 10-15, but then again the most Galaxy's we ever saw was 13. So thats not exactly bad for the Dominion. They used their Bugs as their destroyers and cannon fodder, the Cardassians provided they support they needed against the mid ranged Starfleet ships, and then the Dominion cruisers matched the heavy hitters in Starfleet and the Klingons.

[Stark]

You never saw more then 10-15, but then again the most Galaxy's we ever saw was 13. So thats not exactly bad for the Dominion. They used their Bugs as their destroyers and cannon fodder, the Cardassians provided they support they needed against the mid ranged Starfleet ships, and then the Dominion cruisers matched the heavy hitters in Starfleet and the Klingons.

If the ratio of roaches to cruisers is so high, what does that tell us about them? Why would they only have two primary warship classes? I'm assuming in their home quadrant the roaches are effective combatants in their own right, or maybe they have hammer and anvil tactics. But I can talk out the side of my head all night; most ST races bar the Fed have only a few classes as well.

A nitpick; I thought the designation 'B'Rel' was only used to describe the 300m-ish K'vort-size Klingon vessels, in that Ferengi Capture the Rugrats Enterprise episode? I know the games call the 90m-ish ones B'Rel, but Worf called the bigger ones B'Rels, didn't he?

[Alyeska]

You never saw more then 10-15, but then again the most Galaxy's we ever saw was 13. So thats not exactly bad for the Dominion. They used their Bugs as their destroyers and cannon fodder, the Cardassians provided they support they needed against the mid ranged Starfleet ships, and then the Dominion cruisers matched the heavy hitters in Starfleet and the Klingons.

If the ratio of roaches to cruisers is so high, what does that tell us about them? Why would they only have two primary warship classes? I'm assuming in their home quadrant the roaches are effective combatants in their own right, or maybe they have hammer and anvil tactics. But I can talk out the side of my head all night; most ST races bar the Fed have only a few classes as well.

A nitpick; I thought the designation 'B'Rel' was only used to describe the 300m-ish K'vort-size Klingon vessels, in that Ferengi Capture the Rugrats Enterprise episode? I know the games call the 90m-ish ones B'Rel, but Worf called the bigger ones B'Rels, didn't he?

Evidence indicates the Dominion didn't start producing the cruiser until they met the Federation. The Bug works, but they needed heavier support ships. Getting the Cardassian as allies fixed their problem of needing a mid ranged support ship.

The B'Rel is about 120 meters long. The K'Vort is about 300 meters long.

[Sarevok]

A nitpick; I thought the designation 'B'Rel' was only used to describe the 300m-ish K'vort-size Klingon vessels, in that Ferengi Capture the Rugrats Enterprise episode?

It was the episode Rascals. It is interesting to note that it was the only time the B'Rel class was mentioned in dialogue.