Dyson Sphere and Imperial Black Hole Facilities?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-07-09 06:46pm

A couple questions:

1. How large is the Dyson Sphere?

2. How large is an "average" black hole?

Some ST fans claim the Empire would never be able to build something the size of a Dyson Sphere (even though we know they could), I was wondering though, since the Empire uses large unmanned facilities encompassing black holes, would these facilities be something around the size of the Dyson Sphere?

Please forgive my ignorance about stellar sizes and whatnot when I ask these questions.

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2004-07-09 07:00pm

1. How large is the Dyson Sphere?

Riker stated it was about the size of the earths orbit around the sun. So aprox 150 million kilometers in diameter I think.

2. How large is an "average" black hole?

This Ill let someone more versed in this stuff answer. Although I know the "size" of a black hole is usually determined by its event horizon, or in other words the point at which light can no longer escape the pull of the black hole.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-09 09:20pm

Sidious wrote:Riker stated it was about the size of the earths orbit around the sun. So aprox 150 million kilometers in diameter I think.

Data stated it had a diameter of approximately 280 million kilometers, to which Riker replied it was nearly the size of Earth's orbit around the sun. This would be nearly the full diameter of Earth's orbit. 150 million km is merely the radius of Earth's orbit, not the full "size" (diameter) of it.

1337n1nj4 · Post by **1337n1nj4** » 2004-07-09 09:22pm

Techno_Union wrote:A couple questions:

1. How large is the Dyson Sphere?

The one in TNG was ~1 AU in diameter. Calculating the mass based on the total area and thickness of the shell isn't something I'm up to doing right now though

2. How large is an "average" black hole?

Depends.

The actual singularity is just a point in space; if you're talking about the event horizon, then you can use the formula for the Schwarzschild radius which I believe is something like r = 2GM/c^2, where G is the gravitational constant 6.67e11, M is the mass in kg, and c^2 is lightspeed squared.

Throw in a stellar mass of somewhere from 3-10 times that of the sun and see what you get.

1337n1nj4 · Post by **1337n1nj4** » 2004-07-09 09:23pm

Ack, I meant ~1 AU in radius.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2004-07-10 02:37am

And G=6.67e-11 .

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-07-10 10:47am

Well, the sphere would have a surface area of 2.46 E 23 meters^2, which is absolutely huge

It was probably over a few km thick, so we're talking a stupendous volume, probably greater than 2.46 E 26 cubic meters...

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 11:09am

A Dyson Sphere could possibly house the entire civilization from Star Wars.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-07-10 01:06pm

I wouldn't go QUITE that far Alyeska. It could certainly huge a huge percentage of that, but a fair number of the older worlds have populations in the Trillions.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 01:12pm

Solauren wrote:I wouldn't go QUITE that far Alyeska. It could certainly huge a huge percentage of that, but a fair number of the older worlds have populations in the Trillions.

So? If a dinky little planet like Couruscant can hold that many then a Sphere can easily hold more. Imagine how many people you could hold in a sphere if it were as densely populated as Couruscant.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-07-10 04:02pm

Sorry, I was thinking more Earth population density, not Coruscant level.

Man, imagine the atmospheric scrubbers you'd need in a Dyson sphere that tightly populated?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-10 06:52pm

Alyeska wrote:A Dyson Sphere could possibly house the entire civilization from Star Wars.

No. At best, you could house the entire population of the Empire; there is simply no way that all the near-Dyson scale industrial complexes(KDY, repulsor manufacturing, etc) could fit in there, let alone the agriculture and other such requirements. You can stuff alot of population in with Coruscanti-style architecture, but supporting them is quite another story.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 08:11pm

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:A Dyson Sphere could possibly house the entire civilization from Star Wars.
No. At best, you could house the entire population of the Empire; there is simply no way that all the near-Dyson scale industrial complexes(KDY, repulsor manufacturing, etc) could fit in there, let alone the agriculture and other such requirements. You can stuff alot of population in with Coruscanti-style architecture, but supporting them is quite another story.

I was talking space wise alone there is sufficent room to house all the people in a Dyson Sphere. As it is a Dyson Sphere could house a self sufficent number of people at insane numbers. Trillions of trillions.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-10 08:25pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:A Dyson Sphere could possibly house the entire civilization from Star Wars.
No. At best, you could house the entire population of the Empire; there is simply no way that all the near-Dyson scale industrial complexes(KDY, repulsor manufacturing, etc) could fit in there, let alone the agriculture and other such requirements. You can stuff alot of population in with Coruscanti-style architecture, but supporting them is quite another story.
I was talking space wise alone there is sufficent room to house all the people in a Dyson Sphere. As it is a Dyson Sphere could house a self sufficent number of people at insane numbers. Trillions of trillions.

Very good, a Dyson Sphere's internal surface area is ridiculously huge. Should we start into why a Dyson Sphere for living space is a ridiculous and stupid endeavour?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-10 08:27pm

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote: No. At best, you could house the entire population of the Empire; there is simply no way that all the near-Dyson scale industrial complexes(KDY, repulsor manufacturing, etc) could fit in there, let alone the agriculture and other such requirements. You can stuff alot of population in with Coruscanti-style architecture, but supporting them is quite another story.
I was talking space wise alone there is sufficent room to house all the people in a Dyson Sphere. As it is a Dyson Sphere could house a self sufficent number of people at insane numbers. Trillions of trillions.
Very good, a Dyson Sphere's internal surface area is ridiculously huge. Should we start into why a Dyson Sphere for living space is a ridiculous and stupid endeavour?

Other then needing artifical gravity to keep everything rooted properly, I don't see why its stupid. Its a vast amount of space that can be efficently used. The only drawback is the potential for strategic implications.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-10 08:32pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Very good, a Dyson Sphere's internal surface area is ridiculously huge. Should we start into why a Dyson Sphere for living space is a ridiculous and stupid endeavour?
Other then needing artifical gravity to keep everything rooted properly, I don't see why its stupid. Its a vast amount of space that can be efficently used. The only drawback is the potential for strategic implications.

To say you're downplaying those two problems would be an understatement. A residential Dyson Sphere's residents live, second to second, on their artificial gravity not having any problems. From an engineering perspective, that is completely and utterly moronic.

The 'strategic implications'(IE, one system-busting weapon and you've just lost EVERYTHING) should also not be downplayed to the level you are.

There's a whole host of other problems. Like, how will you make day and night? Or were you not aware that humans are wired specifically to have day and night cycles? There's also that nasty question of where the harmful rads of the star are going. The Earth deflects most of it around itself thanks to magnetic fields, but an enclosed structure like this will have rather huge problem there.

Dyson Sphere's are wonderful for what they were actually envisioned for, energy collection. Turning them into living space is ridiculous, when Ringworlds do it so much more efficiently.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-10 08:55pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote: I was talking space wise alone there is sufficent room to house all the people in a Dyson Sphere. As it is a Dyson Sphere could house a self sufficent number of people at insane numbers. Trillions of trillions.
Very good, a Dyson Sphere's internal surface area is ridiculously huge. Should we start into why a Dyson Sphere for living space is a ridiculous and stupid endeavour?
Other then needing artifical gravity to keep everything rooted properly, I don't see why its stupid. Its a vast amount of space that can be efficently used. The only drawback is the potential for strategic implications.

You could achieve the same effect without the stupendous engineering problems with a Dyson cloud rather than a solid Dyson shell.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-10 10:11pm

Is absorbing 100% of the output of a star really worth destroying planets for building materials, the carefully balanced construction program, or the 'come and shoot me' factor? You wouldn't want it to be your primary energy source, but if you could take up the slack with other methods whats the point in the first place?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-07-11 07:03am

Alyeska wrote:
Solauren wrote:I wouldn't go QUITE that far Alyeska. It could certainly huge a huge percentage of that, but a fair number of the older worlds have populations in the Trillions.
So? If a dinky little planet like Couruscant can hold that many then a Sphere can easily hold more. Imagine how many people you could hold in a sphere if it were as densely populated as Couruscant.

Makes you wonder exactly how powerful and large the civilization that built it was...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-07-11 10:46am

Stark wrote:Is absorbing 100% of the output of a star really worth destroying planets for building materials, the carefully balanced construction program, or the 'come and shoot me' factor? You wouldn't want it to be your primary energy source, but if you could take up the slack with other methods whats the point in the first place?

SW wouldn't build it for the power. They can make reactors which out-class a G2 type star by many orders of magnitude.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-07-11 01:23pm

Who would WANT to live in a Dyson Sphere?

Every point on the interior surface is high noon at the equator 24 hours a day!

Freeman Dyson speculated that the outer surface would have to be peppered with infrared emitters to bleed off the excess energy...the ST ep substituted gravitic emitters. All that energy converted into a not-so-useful form seems inherently wasteful.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2004-07-14 02:36pm

I've read that Black Holes (the event horizon)can range from being the size of a period, to being around 10 to 15 miles in diameter, to being a million solar masses. (a million of our suns) each of the three are formed differently.

RevWaldo · Post by **RevWaldo** » 2004-07-14 03:44pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Makes you wonder exactly how powerful and large the civilization that built it was...

And why the ST universe has seen no other evidence for them.

Unless that civilization was the Q before they evolved into their Deus ex Machina forms.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-07-14 03:50pm

RevWaldo wrote:Unless that civilization was the Q before they evolved into their Deus ex Machina forms.

I rather like the idea that it was the Preservers myself. Hence what they planned to do with it before realising the star was unstable, and deciding to give up.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Dyson Sphere and Imperial Black Hole Facilities?

Dyson Sphere and Imperial Black Hole Facilities?

Re: Dyson Sphere and Imperial Black Hole Facilities?