Benefits of the Iraq War

[Darth Raptor]

Are there any, ANY positive effects that will directly benefit the US? I'm looking for anything at all. For my purposes I don't care about the negatives and whether or not they outweigh the positives. I'm looking for any and all good things.

What have we gained as a result of the Iraq war? I'm already well aware of what we've lost, but have we really even gained anything?

[Galvatron]

How about the opportunity to install an Islamic government in Iraq that'll only tacitly support terrorism, like Saudi Arabia.

Wouldn't that be a gas? Imagine us finding out in ten years that this new regime supports al Qaeda more than Saddam ever did.

[Stuart Mackey]

US corporations should do well out of the US taxpayer..perhaps the odd US vice President as well

[Howedar]

It removes any shadow of a doubt that, if the US government is really damned pissed off at you, and you're only a minor nation, there's a fair chance you are going to get whacked.

[Sarevok]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

[Joe]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

Hardly a phenomenon originating with the Iraq war.

[RedImperator]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

You might have noticed they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war. How exactly do you increase the level of hatred from that point?

[Lonestar]

A generation of American Servicemen experienced in combat.

I suppose if North Korea tried anything remarkably stupid in the near future, the troops we'd send there would be fairly proficient.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

Hardly a phenomenon originating with the Iraq war.

Well FUCK aren't you even aware of how well the islamic world loved the US prior to our supporting the French and British Land Grab?

[The Yosemite Bear]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

You might have noticed they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war. How exactly do you increase the level of hatred from that point?

Well purhaps you should look at where we were 200 years ago...

The US was the primary supplier of Pirates who were raiding and raping the Pilgrim fleet. we put an end to piracy where the british couldn't and highly curtailed the enslavement of middle easterners and europeans.

from that point until we supported the British & French Land Grabs following WWI we were the middle easts best friends. It waszn't until we did things like invade Iran for Oil (1950's), back Isreal repeatably (1950's and 1960's) that things became very strained in our relationships.

[Augustus]

Are there any, ANY positive effects that will directly benefit the US? I'm looking for anything at all. For my purposes I don't care about the negatives and whether or not they outweigh the positives. I'm looking for any and all good things.

What have we gained as a result of the Iraq war? I'm already well aware of what we've lost, but have we really even gained anything?

One possible benifit is the pressure resulting from a democratic, economically sucessful Iraq will bring to bear on Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran, that would hopefully bring about reform.



I know what the retorts from the more left-leaning members of the board will say. So save it. Don't we have enough of Bush bashing/inslut threads by now that they have become rather callo cliches at this point.


As an aside - this brings up something I have wanted to get off my chest for awhile now. Please indulge me for a few moments.

Like most other Conseratives I was all for the war, and having been a member/analysist in an MI Unit (in the USAR then USARNG) believed most of the pre-war claims about Iraq. During my time in the ARNG from '92 to '00, everything that was ever mentioned about Iraq had the same content or flavor...namely Bio-Chem and NBC Development. Every MI person in the USAR, USARR, or USARNG belived it, it was taken as given based on the intel we were forwarded. Arabic linguist/translators and SIGINT guys at Huachuca, I knew believed it too, and they were the first guys to see sources in some cases. Hell...our NBC section even went as far as to get Iraqi NBC documents brought back from the Gulf and incorperate them into training.

So in the run up to war, when the myriad protesters were shouting "No Blood for Oil!" (and other nonsense); all I could do was shake my head, and think "Is'nt it nice to be so naive". After all what the President, Powell and Rumsfeld were talking about in the runup was the same thing that had been floating in and out of my Unit for years. This coupled with what were belived to be inefficencies with the UN Inspection process ( the UN didn't like to share info and what they did pass was meaningless), later lack of one at all, and the fact that the Iraqis were dragging their feet, lead to one conclusion. That the Iraqis had Chem weapons after all they had used them before with little regard as to their effect in Halabja.
An Officer commanding an Arty Company, I knew during the Gulf War that would swear on a stack of Bibles, that the Iraqis counter fired his battery with GB-GF one night. So yes I belived the intel, all of it...every dot on every 'i', every cross on every 't'. We even bombed the snot out of them for kicking the inspectors out and the UN didn’t have any objections.

But Iraq was never really a concern after the Gulf War. Sure all the intel pointed to them having NBC weapons, and we trained for it. But they were contained. I believed that like everyone else aswell, until 9/11 that is.

A couple of days after 9/11 my old ARNG unit was activated for Afghanistan. I was out and this point and finishing my degree. I called up a couple of the guys from the Unit, and invited them for a couple of drinks on me - to wish them well, and try not to feel quite so guilty about not going with them. So we drank, smoked and tried not to feel horrible about what had happened in NYC. Those that had not been in the Gulf War, or units stationed there afterwards wanted to know what it was like. Iraq came up as the experience was discussed, and of course the NBC stuff too. And for me that's when the runup to the Iraq war cyrstalized.

The Iraqis would never attack us directly, but they would be more than happy to sell/give stuff to the nutjobs who just flew two Boeings into the sides of 110 story buildings brought thousands of irreplaceable lives to an unexpeced close, and damged so many others. From Al Queda's actions it was clear that they would like to kill as many people as huamnly possible, and Iraq was a perfect facilitator. Was there anyway to determine if Al Queda had recieved anything from Iraq...no and never would be. And that was the point at which I really belived that the US now HAD to go into Iraq. A few months later I was genuinely relived to here the case structured by the President at the UN and to the people. Finally, I thought, "somebody gets it"!

I'll admit the 'official' run up after the President's UN speech was maddening. I wanted it over and settled. The containment of Iraq had stretched on far enough and had to be concluded. I wanted to see the French put in their place. It was obvious that the economic ties from their quasi-state run government were preventing them from seeing the truth of the evident danger. How dare they deny us? I was eager to move past the bullshit even if it meant unilateral action. Which didn’t seem that bad at all considering French and German soldiers I had met in the Army - we were better off without them.

So when the war started, I will admit I was an unabashed cheerleader. I earnestly hoped it was not too late. The initial failure to uncover WMD sites didn’t trouble me, and I assumed like many they would be uncovered in time. Well time passed...and the bar was lowered, and to be completely honest I was ok with that too. However, as many have pointed out it's obvious that they weren’t there...maybe at one time, but not now. So the rational for the war is largely gone - unless Iraq gave everything they had to Al Queda before the war, and we just happened to miss it...not likely.

The capture of Saddam were nice window dressing that was encouraging. Moreover, the liberation of the Iraqi people was noble and just undertaking. However, was it something I felt real passion for...no honestly not. The overarching goals of setting the Middle East on its ear with a free and democratic state, seems like a sensible goal, except maybe if we had started somewhere else...say in Saudi Arabia for example which is more central to terrorism. Sure the notion of "draining the swap" of terrorists is also appealing, except for the fact that we lack the ability to pursue them across Iraq's boundaries. At one time I felt pride for what the US was doing, now I mostly feel hollow and glum.

That's a hard confession to make. It's even harder to come to terms with being wrong.

Even though I'm a Mechanical Engineer I enjoy history as a hobby. I have been thinking a lot about Appian's account of the destruction of Carthage by Scipio and, Cato's rhetoric - "Carthago delenda est". I wonder like the Roman's did, what have we traded for an enemy vanquished?

Thank you to those who took the time to read this.



Thank you Lazy Raptor for an honest question.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

You might have noticed they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war. How exactly do you increase the level of hatred from that point?

You make more of them willing to do it.

[Sarevok]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

You might have noticed they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war. How exactly do you increase the level of hatred from that point?

The September 11 terrorists are a small number of people and certainly do not represent nearly 1.5 billion muslims world wide. Muslims did not dislike the US the way they do now in the past. The Iraq war seriously dented the American image in the muslim world.

[PainRack]

Thank you to those who took the time to read this.

Thank you Lazy Raptor for an honest question.

*claps*

[Lonestar]

Well purhaps you should look at where we were 200 years ago...

The US was the primary supplier of Pirates who were raiding and raping the Pilgrim fleet. we put an end to piracy where the british couldn't and highly curtailed the enslavement of middle easterners and europeans.

from that point until we supported the British & French Land Grabs following WWI we were the middle easts best friends. It waszn't until we did things like invade Iran for Oil (1950's), back Isreal repeatably (1950's and 1960's) that things became very strained in our relationships.

We never invaded Iran for oil, and France was Israel's main backer in the '50s and '60s.

I think you are thinking of our internal meddling in Iranian politics...and we were hardly alone in that.

As for the French and British Land Grabs...well, "To the Victors go the spoils", and it wasn't like the Ottomans were popular overlords.

[Uraniun235]

A generation of American Servicemen experienced in combat.

A generation of people who won't want to go into the military for fear of being sucked into duty for longer than they signed up for.

[Lonestar]

A generation of people who won't want to go into the military for fear of being sucked into duty for longer than they signed up for.

I was being Ironic.

[Talon Karrde]

How about the plain and simple satisfaction of knowing that we freed an oppressed people?

[Plekhanov]

The US gained nothing but the hatred of muslims worldwide.

You might have noticed they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war. How exactly do you increase the level of hatred from that point?

You can always make a bad situation worse, for an example of a similar situation look at the recent history of Northern Ireland. The Northern Irish Catholics hated the British but relatively few hated us enough to join the PIRA then we had Bloody Sunday and other “public relations” disasters and PIRA recruitment shot up.

Sure “they were flying airplanes into our skyscrapers BEFORE the war” it’s just that now in no small part due to the invasion of Iraq there are more Muslims than before who hate the US enough to try and “martyr” themselves in the hope of taking out US citizens with them.

We never invaded Iran for oil,

Quite right the CIA and MI6 just manufactured a coup and installed a brutal dictator for oil in Iran we never actually invaded.

and France was Israel's main backer in the '50s and '60s.

Yes France was the “main” not sole backer back then the US still played a significant role. So Yosemite Bear’s point still stands.

I think you are thinking of our internal meddling in Iranian politics...and we were hardly alone in that.

Which is why Britain was the “Little Satan” to the US’s “Great Satan” in Khomeini’s rhetoric. “The other boys were doing it first” type schoolboy excuse doesn’t really cut it in that kind of situation. You in no way rebutted Yosemite Bear’s point.

As for the French and British Land Grabs...well, "To the Victors go the spoils",

Remind me which one of Wilson’s 14 points was "To the Victors go the spoils"?
More importantly how does that rebut Yosemite Bear’s point?

and it wasn't like the Ottomans were popular overlords.

Are you taking the piss or is that actually meant to be a serious point?

How about the plain and simple satisfaction of knowing that we freed an oppressed people?

Really the Iraqis are free? When did this happen? Sure Saddam is gone but the Iraqis aren’t free they are being occupied and we don’t know how the situation will develop from here. It’s far too early to start patting ourselves on the back about “freeing people”.

[President Sharky]

But what if they didn't want to be freed?

[Lonestar]

Yes France was the “main” not sole backer back then the US still played a significant role. So Yosemite Bear’s point still stands.

Not signifigant compared to France. Who do you think gave them the reactors and material that (eventually) allowed them to build nukes?

Which is why Britain was the “Little Satan” to the US’s “Great Satan” in Khomeini’s rhetoric. “The other boys were doing it first” type schoolboy excuse doesn’t really cut it in that kind of situation. You in no way rebutted Yosemite Bear’s point.

Alright, fine. This falls under the "it seemed like a good idea at the time" column. Like Pinochet. Happy?

Remind me which one of Wilson’s 14 points was "To the Victors go the spoils"?

Wilson didn't intend for self-determination to apply to non-European territories and you know it.

At the end of WW1 Britain and France were still the big dogs on the block. We were up there, but given our lateness of entering the war and the public's desire to return to the status quo as soon as possible, you must be insane if you think we would be willing to seriously stop Britain and France (and Japan!) from establishing Mandates over former central powers territories. You honestly think we were going to slam our head into the wall for the Arabs in 1918? We weren't willing to do that when a young Ho Chi Minh petitioned for a independant Vietnam, why would we for them?

Are you taking the piss or is that actually meant to be a serious point?

They weren't. Just look at the uproar we caused last year when Turkey offered to send in 17,000 troops to aid us in providing security in Iraq. It's silly to think they were somehow better off under Ottoman rule than British or French.

[Plekhanov]

You do realise that Yosemite Bear was just offering a little potted history of why Muslims/Arabs went from quite liking the US to hating it over the course of the last 200 years don’t you? I don’t think he was making any value judgements or saying that any of the things he listed were necessarily wrong just that they happened and that they are reasons why Arabs went from quite liking to disliking America.

Not signifigant compared to France. Who do you think gave them the reactors and material that (eventually) allowed them to build nukes?

Sure the US wasn’t initially the main backer and even put a stop to Israel, France and Britain’s little Suez adventure which I expect got you some + points. But overall from the get go the US has been a supporter of Israel this pisses Arabs off.

Wilson didn't intend for self-determination to apply to non-European territories and you know it.

And so do the Arabs which is why they were no doubt pissed off with the Allies after WW1

At the end of WW1 Britain and France were still the big dogs on the block. We were up there, but given our lateness of entering the war and the public's desire to return to the status quo as soon as possible, you must be insane if you think we would be willing to seriously stop Britain and France (and Japan!) from establishing Mandates over former central powers territories. You honestly think we were going to slam our head into the wall for the Arabs in 1918? We weren't willing to do that when a young Ho Chi Minh petitioned for a independant Vietnam, why would we for them?

I think you misunderstand me I’m not saying you should have necessarily got into a big fight with Britain and France over Arab independence just that you didn’t infact you did the opposite and supported us nasty colonists, consequently the Arabs were annoyed.

They weren't. Just look at the uproar we caused last year when Turkey offered to send in 17,000 troops to aid us in providing security in Iraq. It's silly to think they were somehow better off under Ottoman rule than British or French.

The Ottomans were bastards so what? We might have been slightly less unpleasant that doesn’t really matter, I think Yosemite Bear’s point was that we (by which I principally mean the British) screwed the Arabs over, the US supported us therefore the Arabs have another stepping stone on the path to widespread Arab hatred of the US.

[Darth Raptor]

How about the plain and simple satisfaction of knowing that we freed an oppressed people?

From a Baathist autocracy to an Islamic theocracy. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

We didn't free jack shit, we simply shifted tyranny's gears.

[Lonestar]

You do realise that Yosemite Bear was just offering a little potted history of why Muslims/Arabs went from quite liking the US to hating it over the course of the last 200 years don’t you? I don’t think he was making any value judgements or saying that any of the things he listed were necessarily wrong just that they happened and that they are reasons why Arabs went from quite liking to disliking America.

Well, Jesus, Why are we sitting here debating this then? My belief is that quite a bit of muslims had little to no use for us before the Iraq Invasion. Hell, The Palestinian family down the street from where my family lives was cheering after 9/11. And this were the guys who wanted to come live in America.

Sorry, I'm inclined to think that most of the muslim world is going to be pissed at us no matter what we do. We could fly over Saudi Arabia and drop money and they would still hate us.

[Joe]

We could fly over Saudi Arabia and drop money and they would still hate us.

We kind of do, actually. Saudi Arabia is the world's most technologically advanced Islamic backwater thanks to us.