Blastech T-21 and DC-15

[Lord Revan]

Blastech T-21 heavy blaster looks quite similar to the rifle version of the DC-15 blaster. I have been thinking clould T-21 be advanced version of DC-15, After all they both have same firepower.

[Illuminatus Primus]

While both had conceptual origins as World War I/World War II light machine guns (the Lewis gun for the T-21, and the MG-42 for the DC-15), they're role and purpose is quite different.

The T-21 is heavier and optomized for the LMG/squad automatic role, analogous to the U.S. Army's M249 machine gun or the .30-06 Browning Automatic Rifle to harken back to WW2 again. However, the DC-15 is a full-length, high-power battle rifle for use on the field, and is analogous to the modern M14 or M1 Garand rifle of WW2.

(The E-11 carbine is a lighter, more versatile and handy weapon, and is more analogous to the M1 carbine--if we are to maintain the anachronistic World Wars analogoies--or the M4A1 carbine of modern day).

[Lord Revan]

While both had conceptual origins as World War I/World War II light machine guns (the Lewis gun for the T-21, and the MG-42 for the DC-15), they're role and purpose is quite different.

The T-21 is heavier and optomized for the LMG/squad automatic role, analogous to the U.S. Army's M249 machine gun. However, the DC-15 is a full-length, high-power battle rifle for use on the field, and is analogous to the M14 rifle (the E-11 carbine is a lighter, more versatile and handy weapon, and is more analogous to the M1 carbine--if we are to maintain the anachronistic World Wars analogoies--or the M4A1 carbine of modern day).

Thank you.

[Lord Revan]

What would be the stromtrooper version of the DC-15.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Interestingly, there's a weapon called the DLT-19 from A New Hope which was a kitbashed MG-34 machine gun from World War 2 (the predecessor of the MG-42) and has some resemblance to the DC-15 (and especially to some early concept art of the weapon). Its description simply refers to it as a "heavy blaster rifle", and is probably the Stormtroopers' equivalent to the DC-15.

Speculatively and intrinsically, the DLT-19 is much lighter-looking and more skeletal than the Clonetroopers' DC-15. Perhaps the DLT-19 is a lighter "para" version of the DC-15? Easier to disassemble, fold, or carry? The lack of sophisticated optics is also conspicuous. The Stormtroopers are a lighter, shock-troop force compared to the Clonetroopers; they are not the Imperial Army.

[Lord Revan]

Interestingly, there's a weapon called the DLT-19 from A New Hope which was a kitbashed MG-34 machine gun from World War 2 (the predecessor of the MG-42) and has some resemblance to the DC-15 (and especially to some early concept art of the weapon). Its description simply refers to it as a "heavy blaster rifle", and is probably the Stormtroopers' equivalent to the DC-15.

Speculatively and intrinsically, the DLT-19 is much lighter-looking and more skeletal than the Clonetroopers' DC-15. Perhaps the DLT-19 is a lighter "para" version of the DC-15? Easier to disassemble, fold, or carry? The lack of sophisticated optics is also conspicuous. The Stormtroopers are a lighter, shock-troop force compared to the Clonetroopers; they are not the Imperial Army.

what strikes odd to me at least is that mordern analogy for DC-15 would be 12,7mm(at least) rifle with 100-150 round clip if the analogy of the E-11 is M4A1 (5,56 mm rifle with 20-30 round clip) (clip size for E-11 is 100 round and 500 for DC-15)

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The modern equivilant to the DC-15 would be the M-14 or other 7.62mm rifle. A 12.7mm rifle would be fucking insane.

[Lord Revan]

The modern equivilant to the DC-15 would be the M-14 or other 7.62mm rifle. A 12.7mm rifle would be fucking insane.

I know it's insane for human targets, but were talking about rifle meant to bring down targets that are armored by their very nature (battle droids) and reduse pieces of srap metal. BTW there are 14.5 mm sniper rifles so .50 cal is not that insane.

[YT300000]

BTW there are 14.5 mm sniper rifles so .50 cal is not that insane.

And then of course there's the 20 mm NTW-20 sniper rifle...

(The E-11 carbine is a lighter, more versatile and handy weapon, and is more analogous to the M1 carbine--if we are to maintain the anachronistic World Wars analogoies--or the M4A1 carbine of modern day).

It's also interesting to note that there are multiple variants of the E-11, such as the E-11M sniper rifle, or the E-11H, which is basically a tougher version designed as a small LMG (much like the RPK).

[Vympel]

I went with the DLT-19 as the obvious DC-15 equivalent, personally, taking into account official information, since the T-21 is different.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The modern equivilant to the DC-15 would be the M-14 or other 7.62mm rifle. A 12.7mm rifle would be fucking insane.

I know it's insane for human targets, but were talking about rifle meant to bring down targets that are armored by their very nature (battle droids) and reduse pieces of srap metal. BTW there are 14.5 mm sniper rifles so .50 cal is not that insane.

Come on now, try and extend "analogies" and "equivalents" beyond pure role from Star Wars to real life and it breaks down as soon as you start nitpicking firepower. Obviously that is not the case. However, something which fills the SW role of "anti-material rifle" has not yet been seen to my knowledge.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's also interesting to note that there are multiple variants of the E-11, such as the E-11M sniper rifle, or the E-11H, which is basically a tougher version designed as a small LMG (much like the RPK).

So its the Imperial Army's/Marines' XM8.

[Lord Revan]

Come on now, try and extend "analogies" and "equivalents" beyond pure role from Star Wars to real life and it breaks down as soon as you start nitpicking firepower. Obviously that is not the case. However, something which fills the SW role of "anti-material rifle" has not yet been seen to my knowledge.

Disruptors. a pistol can take out an espos APC with single max power shot (Han Solo at Stars end). IIRC DC-17 rifle also has anti-armor mode.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, and Espo APC. Come on, a full-bore Imperial Army armored personnel carrier has a large power source; many times that of a DC-15 rifle. I can't imagine that they cannot support armor or shielding that can stop DC-15 blasts.

An Espo APC is probably like a third-world Technical as far as vehicles go.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah, and Espo APC. Come on, a full-bore Imperial Army armored personnel carrier has a large power source; many times that of a DC-15 rifle. I can't imagine that they cannot support armor or shielding that can stop DC-15 blasts.

An Espo APC is probably like a third-world Technical as far as vehicles go.

then there is what Mike says of disruptor in main site

An even more extreme example of this design philosophy is found in the Tenloss DX-2 Disruptor Pistol and DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle. An examination of the picture will reveal that both weapons are meant for extreme short range use, since even the "rifle" is no longer than a modern SMG and has no shoulder stock. The SWEGWT supports this speculation by stating that their ranges are just 7 metres and 20 metres. Ammunition capacity is also poor; both guns can fire just five shots before reloading. However, these guns are so powerful that even a single shot from the weaker pistol can disintegrate ½ m³ of durasteel armour plate! This makes them much more destructive than the normal handguns of the Empire (or the Federation), which can easily blast through rock or masonry but are ineffective against armour. The operating mechanism is actually no different than that of normal blasters; according to the SWEGWT, the only real difference is that it can "process a much greater volume of blaster gas" with each shot, thus indicating that as expected, it deliberately trades ammunition capacity for destructive power (it also means that 20 shots from a regular Blastech E-11 would have the same effect as one shot from the Disruptor).

and explain this:

affect DC-15 shot also top was trown about meter from the lower half.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wow, how does that change the fact that the best APCs in the galaxy have much bigger power plants than a DC-15 or a Destroyer droid for hauling armor around at speed and/or shielding?

Give me a break. If the average combat rifle could destroy the best light armored vehicles with ease, no one would buy and field light armored vehicles.

Like I said, an Espo APC is probably not at the Empire's level of quality. And we don't know anything about the placement of the shot and the range (RPG-7Vs can still knock out heavy armor depending on the hit), nor do we know the precise firepower comparison to the DC-15.

EDIT: Besides, how does that change the fact that, in terms of role, the DC-15 is used the way the M14 was. The fact that in absolute firepower terms, it can do far more damage than the M14 is irrelevent, we're talking about broad analogies and role comparisons.

I mean, the E-11 is to the Empire what the XM8 will be to the U.S., but the XM8 doesn't have the potential firepower of a LAW, which the E-11 does, and probably surpasses. Does that mean that the E-11 is not a versatile, modular, small and easy to manouver, anti-personnel carbine with a capacity for controllable automatic fire, just like the XM8? Besides, what fucking good does it do to "compare" (you're obviously not comprehending what I meant by that in even the broadest terms) a weapon that doesn't exist (a battle rifle in 12.7 with an insane ammo capacity and semi-automatic fire with ease from the shoulder).

EDIT 2.0: And besides, your rebuttal was to find a role-equivalent of the modern AMR; a sub-SMG sized weapon with no shoulder stock and zero range does not qualify for reasons I would say are fucking self-evident.

[Lord Revan]

ok put this way
E-11

and
DC-15

they look the same, but the droid is cut in half and stormtrooper just falls to his back with small hole in the armor. E-11 is also closer to the target. The ammo capacity is from the AOTC:VD (500 for DC-15).

also the typical enemies of stormtrooper are these.

rebels from Hoth

and these for clonetroopers

Droids from Geonosis

see the difference.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thanks for in no-way responding to the point.

What, are all DC-15 AMRs because you decided a battle droid is the equivalent of an armored vehicle? What happened to your marbles?

A battle droid is perhaps the equivalent of well-protected body armored WARPAC troops. But see, this is why you can't dissect the nitty-gritty like you insist (never mind the fact that battle droids still are enemy "personnel" and the DC-15 deals with them akin to an M14 or similar heavy semiautomatic rifle).

EDIT: Also, the E-11 and DC-15 have adjustable power settings; for all you know we're comparing apples and oranges. And the size bit is a red herring; SW weapon beams do not degrade significantly over distance.

[Lord Revan]

Thanks for in no-way responding to the point.

What, are all DC-15 AMRs because you decided a battle droid is the equivalent of an armored vehicle? What happened to your marbles?

A battle droid is perhaps the equivalent of well-protected body armored WARPAC troops. But see, this is why you can't dissect the nitty-gritty like you insist (never mind the fact that battle droids still are enemy "personnel" and the DC-15 deals with them akin to an M14 or similar heavy semiautomatic rifle).

EDIT: Also, the E-11 and DC-15 have adjustable power settings; for all you know we're comparing apples and oranges.

Your point has one problem. The DC-15 has same knockdown power as N-1 main guns (shielded droideka shot N-1 remains (droid blown apart) Unshielded batlledroid hit by N-1 (droid blown apart no signifigant incrice in firepower) unshielded droideka hit DC-15 (droid blown apart)). N-1 and DC-15 hit had the same effect on the droideka regardless off the shield (the battle droid example is to show that the shield did not alter ragically the firepower of the N-1).

also shielded droidekas ( mayby superbattledroids also) are equivalent light armored vehicle in terms durability. then there are the Dwarf spider-droids. standard battledroids and un-shielded droidekas are equivalent armored trooper like you say.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The TPM droidekas were shielded in the hangar. And again, the N-1 guns are adjustable, like most SW weapons. Again, using them in an enclosed area and immediately after merely activating repulsorlifts perhaps does not involve full firepower. Remember the blaster cannons of the Slave 1 in AOTC?

And besides, an unshielded droideka is not the match of an Imperial LAV. A droideka is a heavy infantry support; akin to a mobile E-WEB or such.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What the hell is Revan talking about? All I can tell is that his "evidence" is bullshit, particularly comparing a starfighter's cannons to a Clonetrooper's rifle...

[Illuminatus Primus]

The debate started because he tried to say that the "equivalent" of the DC-15 is a 150 rd .50 semiauto rifle fired from the shoulder.

Nevermind how you can have a role-analogue which does not exist, for a role which he purely invented by suggesting first battle droids, and now droidekas are the equivalent of armored vehicles.

[Lord Revan]

The TPM droidekas were shielded in the hangar. And again, the N-1 guns are adjustable, like most SW weapons. Again, using them in an enclosed area and immediately after merely activating repulsorlifts perhaps does not involve full firepower. Remember the blaster cannons of the Slave 1 in AOTC?

And besides, an unshielded droideka is not the match of an Imperial LAV. A droideka is a heavy infantry support; akin to a mobile E-WEB or such.

Assuming Anakin knew how or wanted to ajust guns, you're correct as the conditions are same in both cases (just activated the combat systems). Othervise there is no signifigant incrise in firepower second case. Also didn't I say that an unshielded droideka is equivalent to armored trooper. ONLY Shielded droidekas are equivalent to APCs. And where did I say that DC-15 is fired from the shoulder?

[Lord Revan]

If DC-15 is equivalent 7,62 mm rifle it still between 100-150 rounds as the DC-15 has five times the ammo capacity of th E-11. IIRC carbines use the same clips as assault rifles (those between 20-30 rounds) IIRC.

[Illuminatus Primus]

ONLY Shielded droidekas are equivalent to APCs.

No, they're not, because droidekas are not armored personnel carriers, nor do they fit some sort of sort-of-analog role for the droid army.

They're the droid equivalent of a mobile F-WEG nest.

And where did I say that DC-15 is fired from the shoulder

You didn't have to, its in the fucking film, dolt.

You obviously have zero idea what "role analog" means, or what I'm trying to say. Otherwise you wouldn't be prattling about something like how the E-11 and DC-15 compare in magazine capacity.