Why is the SW-verse stronger than the Trekverse?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-07-17 10:56pm

Please do bear with me... I am not talking about the universes themselves, I am thinking in terms of when they were created.

To elucidate further--

Star Wars, from the get-go, was pretty damn powerful, and has continued that trend (even continued it upwards...).

Star Trek, on the other hand, started out being middlin' when it came to power levels and then went downhill badly (or uphill, but idiotic-- balances out, really).

So, did George Lucas deliberately intend for the SW-verse to be more powerful than the Trekverse? Was Gene Roddenberry intending that Trek be purposely weak in comparison to other sci-fi franchises of the time (pacifism=good, all that shit), did he honestly know nothing about effective weapon strengths/design, or did he simply know zippity-zappity-zero and not give a fuck?

(Moderators, if this belongs somewhere else, feel free to move...)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-17 11:02pm

What makes you think George Lucas gave a flying fuck about Star Trek? You think he gets involved in these damned fool pissing contests like we do?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-17 11:08pm

Most creators don't care one shit about how their universes compare to other already existant ones. That's pretty much just a fan concern.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-07-17 11:23pm

No, that's not what I'm getting at, at all--

What I'm asking is, did they deliberately make their universes stronger (or weaker, as the case may be)? Or was it just the way it ended up after the final cuts?

This is especially interesting concerning ST-- did Gene Roddenberry minimize the amount of damage his universe's weapons could do to accord with his philosophy or whatever? Or was he unaware that his weapons were lousy, underpowered, and worth shit, and actually think (at the time) that they were fairly strong for SF?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-17 11:26pm

That's just how they measured up, clearly.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-07-17 11:30pm

Elheru Aran wrote:-- did Gene Roddenberry minimize the amount of damage his universe's weapons could do to accord with his philosophy or whatever? Or was he unaware that his weapons were lousy, underpowered, and worth shit, and actually think (at the time) that they were fairly strong for SF?

How, exactly, are Trek weapons lousy, underpowered, and worth shit? Just because they don't have planet-killing firepower? What would they need it for?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-17 11:38pm

Oh fucking gods. This thread is stupid beyond reason.

Look. They wrote entirely different fucking stories. Gene Roddenbury talked of humanity's first steps, so of-fucking-course they're gonna be weaker than a society that's been spacefaring for 25,000 years!

Neither gave a shit about how they would fight!

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-07-17 11:51pm

SirNitram wrote:Oh fucking gods. This thread is stupid beyond reason.

Look. They wrote entirely different fucking stories. Gene Roddenbury talked of humanity's first steps, so of-fucking-course they're gonna be weaker than a society that's been spacefaring for 25,000 years!

Neither gave a shit about how they would fight!

Humanity's first steps? Perhaps relative to the SW civilization, yes, but by ST standards, hardly... certainly not when TOS was made. Those first steps would've been Cochrane's warp drive, meeting the first few alien races (Vulcan, Andorian, etc), the early exploration voyages (Archer, Pike, et al...).

As for the "of course" part, a society that's been travelling through space for a very long time will not necessarily be stronger than a society that's been doing the same for a shorter time. More experienced, true; more powerful (considering the vast distances between stars, and the probablities of encountering intelligent, technologically advanced civilizations)? Um, unless they're EXTREMELY lucky, no.

I'm not trying to compare the two; I merely put them together here because it seemed more convenient to be able to bunch the two together rather than to create two separate threads. What I want to know, surely the two individual creators must've had some idea of how overall powerful they wanted their societies' technologies to be? For example, it wouldn't have been too difficult for Roddenberry to make his phasers as powerful as blasters would be in the later Star Wars movies. The TOS episodes often had pyrotechnics, so it wouldn't have been too hard for him to have opponents falling over with smoking craters in their chests...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-07-18 12:02am

Elheru Aran wrote: As for the "of course" part, a society that's been travelling through space for a very long time will not necessarily be stronger than a society that's been doing the same for a shorter time.

Come again? Given that the older civilization has had shitloads more time for technology to advance and to broaden its resource base, yes, the older civilization IS damn well going to be more powerful.

For example, it wouldn't have been too difficult for Roddenberry to make his phasers as powerful as blasters would be in the later Star Wars movies. The TOS episodes often had pyrotechnics, so it wouldn't have been too hard for him to have opponents falling over with smoking craters in their chests...

And why, pray tell, should he have done so? Why does Trek technology need to be more powerful than it is?

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 12:23am

If you are comparing both *universes* then Trek takes the cake in superior power. If you are talking about comparing technology then yes SW would win.

Again if you were to compare universes then SW would lose big time.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 12:36am

Enigma wrote:If you are comparing both *universes* then Trek takes the cake in superior power. If you are talking about comparing technology then yes SW would win.

Again if you were to compare universes then SW would lose big time.

I would love to see some proof of this. When people make this statement they invariably throw every power in ST against JUST the Empire, and never bring in SW's own superbeings.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 12:48am

SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote:If you are comparing both *universes* then Trek takes the cake in superior power. If you are talking about comparing technology then yes SW would win.

Again if you were to compare universes then SW would lose big time.
I would love to see some proof of this. When people make this statement they invariably throw every power in ST against JUST the Empire, and never bring in SW's own superbeings.

I'm not saying JUST the Empire. Did I say that?

The only superbeings in SW that I know are the Jedi\Sith, Aing ti(sp?) monks and the Voong. How would they fare against the Dowd? That space cloud in TNG that prevented the E-D from escaping and was "experimenting" with the crew? And if Q decides to do something (but most likely wouldn't bother unless Picard pleads with him)?

If there are SW superbeings that could take on any ST superbeings can you state who they are since my knowledge of SW superbeings is quite limited.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 12:55am

Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote:If you are comparing both *universes* then Trek takes the cake in superior power. If you are talking about comparing technology then yes SW would win.

Again if you were to compare universes then SW would lose big time.
I would love to see some proof of this. When people make this statement they invariably throw every power in ST against JUST the Empire, and never bring in SW's own superbeings.
I'm not saying JUST the Empire. Did I say that?

The only superbeings in SW that I know are the Jedi\Sith, Aing ti(sp?) monks and the Voong. How would they fare against the Dowd? That space cloud in TNG that prevented the E-D from escaping and was "experimenting" with the crew? And if Q decides to do something (but most likely wouldn't bother unless Picard pleads with him)?

If there are SW superbeings that could take on any ST superbeings can you state who they are since my knowledge of SW superbeings is quite limited.

The Q are the only ones I'd be concerned about, and to be frank, their demonstrated powers aren't as snazzy as people keep insisting blindly.

Terr Fangbite · Post by **Terr Fangbite** » 2004-07-18 01:03am

Its very simple. Star trek was supposed to be nothing more than a story about a group of intreped explorers. Roddenbery made them muddle through the galaxy just like the explorers back in the 14th century did in the world. Star wars however was supposed to be about epic battles and good kicking evil's butt. Thusly Lucas made the galaxy easily traversible like unto today's ease of traveling the globe.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 01:21am

SirNitram wrote:<snip>
The Q are the only ones I'd be concerned about, and to be frank, their demonstrated powers aren't as snazzy as people keep insisting blindly.

Why do you say that? Who in the SW universe could defeat Q or the Continuum?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-18 01:26am

Star Trek is supposed to be a story about the early days of humanity's exploration of the galaxy. The timline takes place only a few hundred years from the present. Hence writters did not include uber technology.

Star Wars is about an ancient galactic civilization that has explored space for tens of thousands of years. So it is natural that they would be very advanced technology.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 01:33am

Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote:<snip>
The Q are the only ones I'd be concerned about, and to be frank, their demonstrated powers aren't as snazzy as people keep insisting blindly.
Why do you say that? Who in the SW universe could defeat Q or the Continuum?

Given that Q was knocked down by a punch from an ordinary human.. I'd say anyone who can keep up.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 01:36am

SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote:<snip>
The Q are the only ones I'd be concerned about, and to be frank, their demonstrated powers aren't as snazzy as people keep insisting blindly.
Why do you say that? Who in the SW universe could defeat Q or the Continuum?
Given that Q was knocked down by a punch from an ordinary human.. I'd say anyone who can keep up.

When Q took a human form. But I seriously doubt that if you were to shoot him, that he'd die.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 01:38am

Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote: Why do you say that? Who in the SW universe could defeat Q or the Continuum?
Given that Q was knocked down by a punch from an ordinary human.. I'd say anyone who can keep up.
When Q took a human form. But I seriously doubt that if you were to shoot him, that he'd die.

Doubt all you want. When you wish to debate, bring evidence.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 01:45am

SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Given that Q was knocked down by a punch from an ordinary human.. I'd say anyone who can keep up.
When Q took a human form. But I seriously doubt that if you were to shoot him, that he'd die.
When he was helping a girl to become a Q, there was a scene in which they were out in space on the E-D. Q reducing that white cloud to a size that would fit in the palm of his hand. The Q civil war that caused supernovas. Q stating that his baby was able to knock a planet out of orbit for the first time. Q changed his son into a virus\amoeba\some single celled organism. Q's son materialized several Borg cubes. Q shoved E-D 7,000 light years away and into the path of a Borg cube. etc...

Doubt all you want. When you wish to debate, bring evidence.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 01:47am

Enigma wrote: When he was helping a girl to become a Q, there was a scene in which they were out in space on the E-D. Q reducing that white cloud to a size that would fit in the palm of his hand. The Q civil war that caused supernovas. Q stating that his baby was able to knock a planet out of orbit for the first time. Q changed his son into a virus\amoeba\some single celled organism. Q's son materialized several Borg cubes. Q shoved E-D 7,000 light years away and into the path of a Borg cube. etc...

Yes, they can teleport objects and shapechange objects. Transporters can do this. Yes, they can do interesting tricks with forcefields to be outside without decompression(Oddly enough, so can Borg Drones). The Q Civil War weapons were so VASTLY POWERFUL.. That human beings could use them and not suffer instant death from the energy release or recoil.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 02:06am

SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote: When he was helping a girl to become a Q, there was a scene in which they were out in space on the E-D. Q reducing that white cloud to a size that would fit in the palm of his hand. The Q civil war that caused supernovas. Q stating that his baby was able to knock a planet out of orbit for the first time. Q changed his son into a virus\amoeba\some single celled organism. Q's son materialized several Borg cubes. Q shoved E-D 7,000 light years away and into the path of a Borg cube. etc...
Yes, they can teleport objects and shapechange objects. Transporters can do this. Yes, they can do interesting tricks with forcefields to be outside without decompression(Oddly enough, so can Borg Drones). The Q Civil War weapons were so VASTLY POWERFUL.. That human beings could use them and not suffer instant death from the energy release or recoil.

Gee I guess that when the Voyager crew appeared in the Q Continuum, that it appeared to them as U.S. during the Civil War and that the weapons took form from that era? Those weapons when used could create supernovas in their dimension? Q or that girl he was helping was able to exist while in the warp core. If you think that Q is just an illusionist then the same goes for the Jedi and their parlor tricks. Really Nitram, you actually believe that the Q are nothing but simple tricksters?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 02:12am

Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote: When he was helping a girl to become a Q, there was a scene in which they were out in space on the E-D. Q reducing that white cloud to a size that would fit in the palm of his hand. The Q civil war that caused supernovas. Q stating that his baby was able to knock a planet out of orbit for the first time. Q changed his son into a virus\amoeba\some single celled organism. Q's son materialized several Borg cubes. Q shoved E-D 7,000 light years away and into the path of a Borg cube. etc...
Yes, they can teleport objects and shapechange objects. Transporters can do this. Yes, they can do interesting tricks with forcefields to be outside without decompression(Oddly enough, so can Borg Drones). The Q Civil War weapons were so VASTLY POWERFUL.. That human beings could use them and not suffer instant death from the energy release or recoil.
Gee I guess that when the Voyager crew appeared in the Q Continuum, that it appeared to them as U.S. during the Civil War and that the weapons took form from that era? Those weapons when used could create supernovas in their dimension? Q or that girl he was helping was able to exist while in the warp core. If you think that Q is just an illusionist then the same goes for the Jedi and their parlor tricks. Really Nitram, you actually believe that the Q are nothing but simple tricksters?

Frankly... Yea. Given the number of times they DO fake out Humanity(All Good Things, anyone?), it should be a given unless there's evidence against(Like Q Who). Where do you pull the Jedi into this? Perhaps you could show how one could fake lifting entire starships..

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 02:21am

SirNitram wrote:
Enigma wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Yes, they can teleport objects and shapechange objects. Transporters can do this. Yes, they can do interesting tricks with forcefields to be outside without decompression(Oddly enough, so can Borg Drones). The Q Civil War weapons were so VASTLY POWERFUL.. That human beings could use them and not suffer instant death from the energy release or recoil.
Gee I guess that when the Voyager crew appeared in the Q Continuum, that it appeared to them as U.S. during the Civil War and that the weapons took form from that era? Those weapons when used could create supernovas in their dimension? Q or that girl he was helping was able to exist while in the warp core. If you think that Q is just an illusionist then the same goes for the Jedi and their parlor tricks. Really Nitram, you actually believe that the Q are nothing but simple tricksters?
Frankly... Yea. Given the number of times they DO fake out Humanity(All Good Things, anyone?), it should be a given unless there's evidence against(Like Q Who). Where do you pull the Jedi into this? Perhaps you could show how one could fake lifting entire starships..

Using repulsor tech. Manipulating forcefields with nanotech. As for Q, he hated humans in the beginning but like them in the end. He had fun taunting them. Everything he's done is superior to that of the jedi. Hell, Q even healed wounds that would've been fatal!

The reason I used the jedi as an example is that they are superbeings that are regularly being used. In ST, Q is the only superbeing that is used on the show with some regularity (compared to others).

Want to compare powers? A baby Q has at least the same power as a Jedi Master since a Q baby was able to knock a planet out of it's orbit.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-18 02:31am

Enigma wrote:Using repulsor tech. Manipulating forcefields with nanotech. As for Q, he hated humans in the beginning but like them in the end. He had fun taunting them. Everything he's done is superior to that of the jedi. Hell, Q even healed wounds that would've been fatal!

And the Q could be using technology in the same way. It wouldn't be a trick, you idiot, it'd be another method for the same result. At no point am I saying the Q's powers are not inborn. I am pointing out alot of them are likely illusionary, or simply aren't that impressive. You have yet to address the fact they can be harmed by humans and have shown no inherent immortality against weapons fire.

The reason I used the jedi as an example is that they are superbeings that are regularly being used. In ST, Q is the only superbeing that is used on the show with some regularity (compared to others).

That's nice. Ask me if I care. Show me some evidence they are hardy enough to withstand blaster fire.

Want to compare powers? A baby Q has at least the same power as a Jedi Master since a Q baby was able to knock a planet out of it's orbit.

A group of Padawans knocked a fleet into Hyperspace. Next?