US Intelligence caught flatfooted by new ChiCom Sub type

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Subs are the answer against carriers?
The PLA(N) seems to think so. They're offering triple/quadruple pay
for anyone in their navy who joins the submarine service, etc. Remember,
the USSR did think Subs were the answer to CVNs:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ia/949.htm
Or they had no other choice and they decided to go with the second-tier, shitty choice, as some measure is better than no measure.
MKSheppard wrote:Oh yes, I've learned from another board I posted this on, that Gertz is steadily declining in terms of reliability; and is apparently now the tool of whoever in the Pentagon is leaking memos to him at the moment.
What? So he'll whore the faction depending on who's feeding him? Somebody with an interest in NMD feeds him, suddenly he's all about ABM policy, that sort of thing?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Post by MKSheppard »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Nice framing the response to eliminate the possibility that Damien knew about SLBMs, even though they are distinct from ICBMs to facilitate your little quip.
I was replying to Damien's idiotic remark "Those are pretty big
missiles, after all". You know, that's the kind of thing you'd expect
from a redneck, not a cultural elite, like Damien.

"Them are some big missiles!"

Surprise, SLBMs are fucking huge nowadays, being only 4m shorter on
average than a silo launched missile, but being almost three times fatter.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Post by MKSheppard »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Or they had no other choice and they decided to go with the second-tier, shitty choice, as some measure is better than no measure.
Same reason for a small country, ATGMs are a more effective choice.
CVBGs and Tanks project power, and are very expensive to build; a
submarine horde and ATGM horde sucks on the offensive, but is great
for defense. Same reasoning the USSR did to deal with our CVBGs,
instead of building up to meet us on equal terms in one massive Midway-esque battle, they went the opposite route.
MKSheppard wrote:What? So he'll whore the faction depending on who's feeding him? Somebody with an interest in NMD feeds him, suddenly he's all about ABM policy, that sort of thing?
*shrugs* I really don't know. He does get an uncommon amount of leaked
memos from the Pentagon. Take that at what you will.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Howedar
Emperor's Thumb
Posts: 12472
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:06pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Post by Howedar »

Trident D-5. 13.41 x 1.85 meters, 58,500kg launch weight.
Minuteman III. 18 x 1.67 meters, 32,158kg launch weight.
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
User avatar
BlkbrryTheGreat
BANNED
Posts: 2658
Joined: 2002-11-04 07:48pm
Location: Philadelphia PA

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

I'm assuming that these subs are disel/electic hybrids rather then pure disel subs. (Afterall, the germans had the sense to do that.... almost 100 years ago). Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't "disel" subs much quieter in electic mode, giving them a chance to "sneak up" on a Carrier group?
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

-H.L. Mencken
Howedar
Emperor's Thumb
Posts: 12472
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:06pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Post by Howedar »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I'm assuming that these subs are disel/electic hybrids rather then pure disel subs. (Afterall, the germans had the sense to do that.... almost 100 years ago).
Yes. They're called just diesels cause everyone knows what that means.
Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't "disel" subs much quieter in electic mode, giving them a chance to "sneak up" on a Carrier group?
Sure, if the carrier is going about five knots. Diesel subs are essentially mobile minefields. They're great for defending things, but you cannot bluewater hunt with them. Especially you cannot hunt a CVBG which tends to like to operate waay out in the ocean at 25kts.
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Post by Lonestar »

Must have been a slow newsweek, because there's a whole cluster of China articles today in the early bird. Most of them are of the "OMFG they're going to attack us!" variety, but there's a few good ones too.

From a somewhat better source than the Washington Times...a better story!




Wall Street Journal
July 16, 2004
Pg. 1

The New Weapon In China's Arsenal: Private Contractors

Once-Lethargic PLA Becomes Stronger Force With Help Of Modern Defense Sector

By Charles Hutzler, Staff Reporter Of The Wall Street Journal

SHENZHEN, China -- When China's military wanted to buy equipment for a new communications network, it bypassed the state-owned defense contractors that had once catered to its needs. Instead it turned to a young, private company run by a former army engineer.

Operating from a landscaped corporate campus in this booming city adjacent to Hong Kong, Huawei Technologies Co. speedily filled the order. In 2000 and 2001, company engineers installed routers, switches and other gear to connect military command centers across China, according to former executives and an engineer involved in the installation. As a result, the military got a network that's faster, more reliable and, foreign military experts say, less susceptible to U.S. eavesdropping.

After decades as a lumbering giant, the People's Liberation Army is on the verge of fielding a military force commensurate with China's strategic ambitions. To get there, Chinese leaders have abandoned old principles and are harnessing the country's increasingly free-market economy to build a competitive defense industry. The PLA has dug ditches to lay fiber-optic cables for commercial telephone operators in return for extra bandwidth. The government is doling out billions of dollars to fund the private development of cutting-edge technologies. And the country's retooled commercial shipyards are booming.

Encouraging the commercial sector is just one way that China is beefing up its military capabilities. In recent years, Chinese commanders have shredded war-fighting doctrines based on the communist revolution and have rolled out new regimens for recruitment, training and combat. As a result, Washington's foreign-policy establishment is worrying about China again. The Bush administration, which had largely reined in its concerns after Sept. 11, is reassessing the country's capabilities, especially in light of the U.S.'s legal obligation to help protect Taiwan.

"The Chinese have leapfrogged," says James Mulvenon, a Chinese military specialist with Rand Corp., a think-tank often commissioned by the U.S. government to study security issues. "Don't comfort yourself by thinking that they're not formidable."

The PLA isn't likely to catch up with the U.S. for a long time, foreign military analysts say. Its 2.25-million-member force, the world's largest, is largely land-bound. It has an improving arsenal of missiles but underpowered naval and air forces; they and the infantry rarely train together. China also still relies on Russia and other foreign suppliers for major weapons systems. Defense attachés who have visited Chinese ships describe seeing a mish-mash of electronics, some of it commercially available. Only in recent years have commanders boasted of a new capability -- encrypted e-mails.

China's defense sector remains inefficient, a problem exacerbated by a government that hasn't discarded its love of central control. The military insists on buying products at cost and that blunts innovation. Arms-buyers for the PLA "would come to us all the time and say: 'We're not doing business. We're defending the country,' " says a former executive at a top ordinance manufacturer.

China's strategic ambitions and key aspects of its modernization program remain largely under wraps. The Ministry of Defense and the PLA command declined to comment for this article, and the PLA's main strategy documents are classified. Chinese leaders have publicly stated that their military build-up is defensive. Any war would risk China's international standing and dent the trade and investment that buoy its economy.

Nonetheless, foreign experts don't doubt the seriousness of China's modernization effort. "This modernization isn't rapid, but it's very determined," says Dennis Blasko, a former military attaché in Beijing for the U.S. Army.

For decades, the PLA struggled to keep up with international rivals, hobbled in part by state-run defense contractors that grew lethargic serving only one client -- the military. As creatures of a planned economy, these companies couldn't produce the computers and communications equipment that have been remaking warfare in the West. An East German-designed factory in Beijing that churned out radio components for the PLA is now an exhibition space for avant-garde art shows, for example.

The PLA itself was a complacent organization. During the 1990s, it conducted war games for senior Communist Party leaders so skewed that the communists, represented by the Red Team, won every time. The Chinese state media glorified these proxy battles while others in the region dismissed them as evidence of the PLA's ineptitude.

Many senior generals now in charge know the PLA's shortcomings from firsthand experience. Many cut their teeth in its last major campaign, a disastrous three-week offensive in Vietnam in 1979. The battle-tested Vietnamese forces outwitted the Chinese. Communications between field units and commanders failed. Chinese units were lured into ambushes where the Vietnamese picked them off "like fish on a platter," according to a study by a Chinese officers' training academy. The campaign, according to that study, left 25,000 Chinese dead and wounded. Some foreign scholars say the number of casualties was nearly twice that estimate.

The current defense minister, Gen. Cao Gangchuan, was sent from his job as a staff officer in PLA headquarters to the Vietnam border to oversee artillery assaults during that campaign, according to David Shambaugh, a professor at George Washington University, and author of an in-depth study of the PLA. By 1998, Gen. Cao had the ear of then-President Jiang Zemin, who still heads the military, even though he has stepped down as party chairman and president. Mr. Jiang put Gen. Cao in charge of overseeing the development and procurement of weapons systems.

By the 1990s, the veterans of Vietnam dominated the upper ranks of the Chinese military. They grew even more concerned about the PLA's weaknesses after the U.S.'s display of technological superiority in the first Gulf War. In 1999, the U.S. bombed China's embassy in Yugoslavia -- the U.S. says it was a mistake but many Chinese are skeptical -- and Taiwan asserted its lack of interest in unification. At that point, China accelerated its military reforms.

Since then, the PLA has introduced new combat practices and weaponry and has significantly boosted its military budget. It also cut its bloated ranks by half a million and reduced conscription of poorly educated peasants who for a long time constituted the core of the force.

At the same time, PLA modernization got a boost from the rapidly growing free-market economy and increasingly competitive industries. Huge, newly equipped shipyards are churning out so many destroyers, frigates and landing vessels -- as well as 10% of the world's commercial shipping vessels -- that the head of China's leading shipbuilder says he tells managers not to seek out military contracts. "We just can't manage it all," says Chen Xiaojin, president of China State Shipbuilding Corp., a state-owned company.

Legend, a computer maker spun off from the Chinese Academy of Sciences in 1984 -- and now named Lenovo Group Ltd. -- last year unveiled a new supercomputer, DeepComp 6800, for military use, according to a person familiar with the arrangement.

A senior executive at leading software maker Neusoft Group Ltd. says it is working with the PLA on a satellite-based navigation system -- the kind the U.S. military uses to track special forces and steer missiles. The PLA is also canvassing leading Chinese mobile-phone makers about building specialized handsets, according to two industry consultants.

Huawei, the maker of communications equipment, is a private company with an overtly militaristic feel. Its founder and current general manager, Ren Zhengfei, spent 10 years in the army. New Huawei employees, mostly recent university graduates, are sent to a month-long boot camp and PLA songs such as "Unity is Strength" are commonly sung at company gatherings.

A Huawei spokesman said Mr. Ren wouldn't comment and said the company doesn't supply the PLA. Previously, the company has said a small percentage of sales went to the military.

The government remains at the center of the defense industry by handing out seed money to encourage research into commercial products with potential military applications. From a shabby 10-story building in Beijing in a neighborhood of military garrisons, the Ministry of Science and Technology has pledged to hand out $2.4 billion in grants between 2001 and 2005, twice the amount of the previous 15 years. Funding is directed toward cutting-edge fields, chiefly wireless networks, semiconductor design and new materials, says Vice Minister Ma Songde.

An ideal find, Mr. Ma says, would be something like carbon fiber "which can be used to make tennis rackets and jet fighters too."

The PLA has also lent a more direct hand to the commercial sector, in the expectation of getting something in return. For example, Chinese soldiers dug trenches and laid fiber-optic cables for the country's latest commercial phone networks. In return, telecom operators dedicated bandwidth for military use and the PLA also placed cables in the trenches for their own networks, industry executives say. Already these nascent systems are proving more difficult for foreign militaries to intercept and decipher, military experts say.

The military is also happy to buy equipment from China's booming commercial tech sector, rather than waiting for the development of specialized equipment. That's allowing the PLA to catch up faster, says Richard Bitzinger, a researcher at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies in Honolulu, the think-tank for the U.S. Pacific Command.

"For most military computers, using Pentium chips is good enough," says a PLA senior colonel involved in long-range strategic planning.

With its growing proficiency, the PLA is making a concerted push into information warfare -- the use of computer viruses to paralyze an enemy's financial markets or traffic systems. The PLA has opened an information-warfare center and is training special units in these skills, according to Shen Weiguang, a former aide to the PLA's recently retired chief of staff and a lecturer at military academies on warfare trends.

In 1996, the PLA couldn't track two U.S. aircraft-carrier groups that Washington dispatched to Taiwan, recalls Mr. Shen. "We're not deaf and blind anymore. If you come, we'll know," he says.

All these changes are giving China's leadership real military options for the first time in decades. Military analysts think the PLA still lacks sufficient naval and air power to launch a full invasion of Taiwan, for example. But the areas where the PLA is making its greatest strides -- commando forces, information warfare and missiles technology -- could, if deployed together in a few years time, demolish Taiwan's military bases and command centers, according to a Pentagon assessment of the PLA's capabilities.

The Pentagon's report, released in May, cites "the PLA's determined focus on preparing for conflict in the Taiwan Strait." In that area, the report says, the "balance of power is steadily shifting in China's favor." Beijing has sought the island's capitulation since a failed assault by Mao Tse-tung's communist troops 55 years ago.

A debate is under way in Chinese military and policy circles about whether to take pre-emptive military action, perhaps by seizing one of the small islands that Taiwan controls. "Some say that a minor action now could prevent the need for a major action later," says a former foreign-ministry official who has taken part in some of the closed-door discussions about military options.

Alarmed by China's rapid modernization, Taiwan's government, after years of foot-dragging, is proposing a special $18 billion outlay to purchase U.S. weapons.

LONG MARCH

A look at the People's Liberation Army

Founded: Aug. 1, 1927, as the Red Army

Size: 2.25 million personnel, world's largest by manpower

Budget: $25 billion official; $50 billion to $70 billion Pentagon estimate

Missiles: 30-plus intercontinental; 500-plus short-range

Army: 1.7 million personnel; 8,680 tanks

Navy: 69 submarines; 63 destroyers, frigates

Air Force: 1,900-plus combat aircraft

Bases abroad: None

Source: International Institute for Strategic Studies; WSJ Research
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

You know if China is serious about a free market competative defence industry, they will certainly catch up a lot quicker to Western tech and standards.

But truthfully I really think that some of these stories are being spread by the Pentagon in order to scare Congress into giving them more money, a-la the whole Mig-25 fiasco (cast your mind back aways...). *Why yes sir, that is a tin hat I am wearing* :shock:
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Well, at least the "no bases abroad" is comforting; it means their force projection is going to be limited to near-China. As for the information warfare stuff, well, that shit is dangerous; if they fried the NYSE, most likely it would come back to bite them in the ass.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Crown wrote:You know if China is serious about a free market competative defence industry, they will certainly catch up a lot quicker to Western tech and standards.

But truthfully I really think that some of these stories are being spread by the Pentagon in order to scare Congress into giving them more money, a-la the whole Mig-25 fiasco (cast your mind back aways...). *Why yes sir, that is a tin hat I am wearing* :shock:
The whole Mig-25 thing wasn't a deliberate inflation though, at least not by western intelligence. It was just bad luck that a new high-speed soviet drone appeared at the same time, lending a high degree of credibility to the aircraft's theorized speed and range figures.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Good for China. Though I'd be more concerned when they finally get such boats to work properly, as good as SSKs are for defencing shores and littoral areas, they still have to go up for air and resupply on fuel, so low cost and numbers may help.

Provided they things don't kill off all the decent submariners they have first.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Post by Sarevok »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Subs are the answer against carriers?

This guy is shady.
China does not have the ships's or technology to go against US surface combatants. Plus US naval airpower is a formidable threat to their surface warship. So their best bet is to go underwater and stealthy.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Axis Kast
Vympel's Bitch
Posts: 3893
Joined: 2003-03-02 10:45am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Contact:

Post by Axis Kast »

Chinese investors are buying up the old hulks of Russian helicopter carriers with gusto - ostensibly for floating pleasure palaces. But I wouldn't be surprised if PLAN technicians and the like first forced the buyers to let them go over the ships and their internal construction - however mangled by the Soviet builders - with a fine-toothed comb.
User avatar
BlkbrryTheGreat
BANNED
Posts: 2658
Joined: 2002-11-04 07:48pm
Location: Philadelphia PA

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

-H.L. Mencken
User avatar
BlkbrryTheGreat
BANNED
Posts: 2658
Joined: 2002-11-04 07:48pm
Location: Philadelphia PA

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Oh, Blah. Will some mod put the "]" at the end of my last post?
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

-H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Ma Deuce
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4359
Joined: 2004-02-02 03:22pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Post by Ma Deuce »

I've known about the PRC's carrier ambitions for quite some time, and I'm predicting that if they do try and build one, it'll turn into a(nother) gigantic clusterfuck...
Image
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist


"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
User avatar
Ma Deuce
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4359
Joined: 2004-02-02 03:22pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Post by Ma Deuce »

MKSheppard wrote:Surprise, SLBMs are fucking huge nowadays, being only 4m shorter on
average than a silo launched missile, but being almost three times fatter.
Howedar wrote:Trident D-5. 13.41 x 1.85 meters, 58,500kg launch weight.
Minuteman III. 18 x 1.67 meters, 32,158kg launch weight.
But bear in mind that this is China we're talking about, not the US or Russia: Consider the specs of the PRC's only operational ICBM type, the DF-5:

Dimensions: 32.6m x 3.35m
Launch Weight: 183,000kg
(this thing is almost the size of an SS-18, yet only carries a single 2MT warhead)

And now, their only operational SLBM type, the JL-1, which has a puny 1,700km range (equivilent to an MRBM's range)

Dimensions: 10.7m x 1.4m
Launch Weight: 14,700kg

So no: at present, the PRC cannot mount intercontinental-ranged missiles on their subs (or anyone's subs, for that matter): However, they are working on the improved JL-2 SLBM which has an 8,000km range, and will enter service with their Type-094 SSBN.
Image
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist


"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

hmm this gives me a new idea for nationalist china in HOI just how many subs would I need to produce to ass rape the japanese?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Ma Deuce wrote:I've known about the PRC's carrier ambitions for quite some time, and I'm predicting that if they do try and build one, it'll turn into a(nother) gigantic clusterfuck...
Indeed. If the Chinese built a carrier right now I'd expect it to capsize within a week because they forgot to add the offset weight of the island into there stability calculations. They've never built a warship larger then 6,000 tons full load and even that was using imported engines, not to mention largely imported or license produced electronics and weapons.

The only way the Chinese are going to get a decent carrier any timeframe the world might give a damn about is if they have western companies do all the work for them, though it could happen in a Chinese yard. But that's something they've rejected for all military projects. They want to do it themselves, and that means taking the decades of times that takes, not to mention a couple of fuckup designs. The Soviets started their quest to a fleet carrier with far more experience then the Chinese have and even then despite very modest goals they still produced the Moskva's. Not much of a carrier, not very impressive cruisers, but certainly poorly designed pieces of junk. The fact that the Chinese have only had one example of a real carrier, Melbourne, to look at and she was built to merchant specifications, isn't going to help them much.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Stuart Mackey
Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
Posts: 5946
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:28am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Sea Skimmer wrote: Indeed. If the Chinese built a carrier right now I'd expect it to capsize within a week because they forgot to add the offset weight of the island into there stability calculations. They've never built a warship larger then 6,000 tons full load and even that was using imported engines, not to mention largely imported or license produced electronics and weapons.

The only way the Chinese are going to get a decent carrier any timeframe the world might give a damn about is if they have western companies do all the work for them, though it could happen in a Chinese yard. But that's something they've rejected for all military projects. They want to do it themselves, and that means taking the decades of times that takes, not to mention a couple of fuckup designs. The Soviets started their quest to a fleet carrier with far more experience then the Chinese have and even then despite very modest goals they still produced the Moskva's. Not much of a carrier, not very impressive cruisers, but certainly poorly designed pieces of junk. The fact that the Chinese have only had one example of a real carrier, Melbourne, to look at and she was built to merchant specifications, isn't going to help them much.
Fact is that if the Chinese want carriers, they will have to start at the beginning and work their way up that same as Britian and the US did.They will gain some insights from publicly available information and history in general, but its going to be the same old slog, hard work and mistakes that the west had to go through.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
--------------
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

well china will also have to make it Boeing product compatable.....

scary when they are Boeing and GM's biggest coustomers...
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
BlkbrryTheGreat
BANNED
Posts: 2658
Joined: 2002-11-04 07:48pm
Location: Philadelphia PA

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Fact is that if the Chinese want carriers, they will have to start at the beginning and work their way up that same as Britian and the US did.They will gain some insights from publicly available information and history in general, but its going to be the same old slog, hard work and mistakes that the west had to go through.
Who designs the carriers? I'm guessing private companies- but where do the engineers/archietects learn how to do so? If its just an engineering class at a university, couldn't they send some "foreign exchange" spies err students there?
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

-H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Post by Guardsman Bass »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Fact is that if the Chinese want carriers, they will have to start at the beginning and work their way up that same as Britian and the US did.They will gain some insights from publicly available information and history in general, but its going to be the same old slog, hard work and mistakes that the west had to go through.
Who designs the carriers? I'm guessing private companies- but where do the engineers/archietects learn how to do so? If its just an engineering class at a university, couldn't they send some "foreign exchange" spies err students there?
Ex-soviets? I heard the Soviets built a nuclear-powered carrier before the Fall.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Stuart Mackey
Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
Posts: 5946
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:28am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Stuart Mackey »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Fact is that if the Chinese want carriers, they will have to start at the beginning and work their way up that same as Britian and the US did.They will gain some insights from publicly available information and history in general, but its going to be the same old slog, hard work and mistakes that the west had to go through.
Who designs the carriers? I'm guessing private companies- but where do the engineers/archietects learn how to do so? If its just an engineering class at a university, couldn't they send some "foreign exchange" spies err students there?
From what I understand they would want to do it all themselves....
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
--------------
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Ex-soviets? I heard the Soviets built a nuclear-powered carrier before the Fall.
The Soviets where building a nuclear carrier but it never was completed. They did finish the conventionally powered Kuznetsov though and they sold her incomplete sister ship to the Chinese. However that hulk was badly decayed and the class doesn't have very well designed aviation facilities. Though how much of that would even be apparent in a rusting incomplete hulk is questionable. Anyway, the Kuznetsov continued the Soviet practice of basically tacking on aviation facilities to cruisers (it has hatches for SS-N-19 anti ship missiles that open up in the middile of the fight deck) and that means a very limited airgroup. Kuznetsov can only carry about 24 Su-33 fighters despite displacing nearly 60,000 tons full load and 45,900 standard. That's pretty terrible even considering the dozen SS-N-19's onboard. Even the crappy little 36,600 standard, 40,550 ton full load French Charles de Gaulle can haul nearly 40 fixed wing aircraft and she has a catapult (something only the US can produced, the French bought American) to let her operate a much wider range of aircraft. Kuznetsov uses a ski jump, which limits her to high performance jets.

As for a likely source of a foreign carrier design, if the Chinese got serious about the whole endeavor and the costs involved, and decided it was politically acceptable to ousource the design, France is the most likely choice. Her defence industry already has many ties with the Chinese military, particularly its navy and she has extensive experience with carrier operations and design. The Charles de Gaulle had a lot of horrible bugs, minor stuff like the engines not working and the fight deck being too short.... But a lot of that came from the government's very retarded displacement limitations on the design and most of it could be fixed. Certainly it would be a better place to look for help, particularly for building a ship intended for extermination and training rather then fleet service, the Russia. Tracking down all the people who designed Kuznetsov over two decades ago would be a real bitch anyway. And I'd bet they don't have those plans computerized.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Post Reply