Religious vultures swoop in

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-23 07:42pm

Once-atheist parents find relief in religion

By JAN WONG
Friday, July 23, 2004 - Page A1

TORONTO -- Nine-year-olds have endless questions, big and small. One that Cecilia Zhang asked her mother was: "Do you believe in God?''

At the time, Sherry Xu sidestepped the question. But the answer now, after her daughter was abducted from her bed last fall, after her remains were found in March, and after a visa student from Shanghai was charged yesterday with her murder, is yes.

Born and raised as atheists in Communist China, the couple embraced religion soon after their daughter's abduction. In April, after her funeral, they were baptized into an evangelical Christian denomination.

On Wednesday, police told Ms Xu and her husband Raymond Zhang that a young man they knew had been charged with their daughter's murder. They were instantly forgiving. "They are absolutely incredible people," said Peel Regional Police Chief Noel Catney, sounding amazed. "They reflect a position of forgiveness and empathy and compassion."

Ms. Xu and Mr. Zhang were in seclusion Wednesday and yesterday. But interviews with friends, neighbours and their pastor depict a couple struggling to cope with grief through religion.

Rev. Daniel Lee, who didn't know the couple, said he called on their home to offer spiritual help right after Cecilia's disappearance. Soon, members of the church, the Chinese Evangelical Alliance Church of Toronto, became constant companions.

"The church people are always there," said one disapproving long-time friend who spoke on condition of anonymity. "They stick to them like flies."

Each Sunday, the church rents the cafeteria and five classrooms at Georges Vanier Secondary School on Don Mills Road, a five-minute drive from the couple's home. Mr. Lee said the church has 280 members, including adults and children, half of them originally from mainland China, the other half from Taiwan.

The church, which Mr. Lee founded 11 years ago, is part of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, a global organization with three million members in 60 countries. The Alliance has 419 churches in Canada, including 80 catering to ethnic Chinese. The denomination believes that the second coming of Jesus Christ is "imminent," according to its website. Members greet one another as "brother" and "sister."

This church organized Cecilia's huge memorial service last spring, replete with prayers and gospel songs, in the borrowed premises of the People's Church on Sheppard Avenue. Mr. Lee said the couple now attend church every Sunday, plus several smaller fellowship meetings each month. "They had never been to church before. Now they steadily attend our church," he said.

Jack Jia, who lives across the street from the Zhang home and acted as a spokesman in the early days of the abduction, said Cecilia's slaying has altered his relationship with the family. "It changed us," said Mr. Jia, who has a son Cecilia's age. "We don't talk like we used to. There's a hesitation when we pick any topic."

Asked what they do talk about, he said, "It's difficult to talk about any topic. We play tennis." Mr. Jia was supposed to play a match on Wednesday night with Mr. Zhang, who once played on his university tennis team in China. But Mr. Jia, publisher of a Chinese weekly, had to work late. By the time he called Mr. Zhang, the police had moved the couple to another location in anticipation of yesterday's announcement.

The home where Ms. Xu and Mr. Zhang live, near Finch Avenue and Don Mills Road, is now empty of the student tenants who once filled their basement and spare bedrooms. After police cut out a section of counter top beside the kitchen sink where the kidnapper apparently left a footprint, the couple left it unrepaired for more than five months. In addition to that daily reminder of Cecilia's disappearance, they also kept the living room as a shrine to their daughter, filled with photos, mementos and stuffed animals.

After Cecilia's funeral, at the urging of their church, the couple went to Vancouver for a week. But Ms. Xu has never been able to return to work. Her business, after-school tutoring, has since closed. Mr. Zhang made one early, unsuccessful attempt to go back to his job as a computer specialist at Sun Life Financial. Mr. Lee said Mr. Zhang is just beginning to resume work now. They have not been back to China.

Yesterday, in a statement released by city Councillor Olivia Chow, the couple thanked the police and neighbours, friends and strangers who had shown support. "Nothing can bring Cecilia back, but we believe that this development and the judicial process ahead will bring a sense of closure that will help us move forward," the statement said.

Min Chen, the student from Shanghai charged with Cecilia's murder, was a friend of one of their female boarders. Mr. Chen, now 21, had been to their home four times and had "interacted'' with Cecilia on at least two occasions, according to Chief Catney. "When his name was mentioned, they knew exactly who it was. They had observed him interacting with their daughter, and were devastated."

He added that Mr. Chen had previously been in the room where Cecilia was sleeping that night. Cecilia had moved into that room only a few weeks earlier, giving her own bedroom, with its locked door and ensuite bath, to her grandfather who was visiting from China. Police did not explain how Mr. Chen knew where Cecilia was sleeping that night. The female tenant he was friends with had moved out seven months earlier.

"When we broke the news to Raymond and Sherry yesterday, it was met with a great deal of relief as well as a great deal of sadness. They realized this young man's life was also going to change for the worse, so they are truly humanitarian people," said Superintendent Frank Roselli, who led the police task force on Cecilia.

Mr. Lee, who watched the press conference on television yesterday, wasn't surprised by the couple's attitude. "They are Christians now," he said. "For them to forgive requires a lot of strength. I think they get it from God. They know everyone is a sinner."

He said the congregation was praying for Ms. Xu to get pregnant again. "We pray for them. We hope God will give them more children to comfort them."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when ambulances and hearses go by, most of us feel sympathy and regret, but there are two classes of people who see opportunity: lawyers and clergymen.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-07-23 07:50pm

So what happens when they have to tell these people that their daughter probably went to hell for not being a good Christian?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-07-23 07:51pm

Joe wrote:So what happens when they have to tell these people that their daughter probably went to hell for not being a good Christian?

We'll see just how "forgiving" they really are.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-23 07:53pm

Will there ever be an article "Once-Christian Parents Confront Their Personal Problems as Atheists"?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-07-23 07:55pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Will there ever be an article "Once-Christian Parents Confront Their Personal Problems as Atheists"?

No, that would be once-Christian parents failing to grasp God's special plan for their children and selfishly turning their back on Him.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-07-23 08:10pm

What the fuck is wrong with these people? Have they no shame whatsoever?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-07-23 08:11pm

what really pisses me off is that if I were to speak out publicly about this orse-shit, I would be denounced as an "angry atheist" or an "anti-theist"

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-07-23 08:38pm

As most of you know, I was a mortician's assistant for a few years in a funeral home. During many of the pentecostal type funerals, the preacher would often go into his recruitment spiel and then say how the deceased would want to the unsaved to become saved. It was fucking pathetic.

I remember one funeral took place in a small church in a smaller town near Chico. This particular dead dude had lots of friends, so the preacher found himself talking to 150 people rather than his usual 40 or so. He wasted no time in finding the people who were crying the most and offering the "salvation of Jesus" to them. "Religious vultures" is a great description of them.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-07-23 08:45pm

"The church people are always there," said one disapproving long-time friend who spoke on condition of anonymity. "They stick to them like flies."

An accurate analogy if I ever heard one.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-07-23 08:46pm

Superman wrote:As most of you know, I was a mortician's assistant for a few years in a funeral home. During many of the pentecostal type funerals, the preacher would often go into his recruitment spiel and then say how the deceased would want to the unsaved to become saved. It was fucking pathetic.

I remember one funeral took place in a small church in a smaller town near Chico. This particular dead dude had lots of friends, so the preacher found himself talking to 150 people rather than his usual 40 or so. He wasted no time in finding the people who were crying the most and offering the "salvation of Jesus" to them. "Religious vultures" is a great description of them.

At a pagan friend's funeral, her mother brought in a Church of (God/Christ/whatever) preacher to preside. He turned it into a 'if you don't know Christ you're going to hell' sermon. All of Dara's friends were appalled. Dara and her mother had parted religious views years before, and her mom *knew* she was pagan like many of her friends. But here was this preacher trying to turn Dara's funeral into an altar call. I didn't have the guts to walk out, but several did. Later Dara's father (divorced) came out and apologized for what his ex-wife had done.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-23 08:52pm

LadyTevar wrote:At a pagan friend's funeral, her mother brought in a Church of (God/Christ/whatever) preacher to preside. He turned it into a 'if you don't know Christ you're going to hell' sermon. All of Dara's friends were appalled. Dara and her mother had parted religious views years before, and her mom *knew* she was pagan like many of her friends. But here was this preacher trying to turn Dara's funeral into an altar call. I didn't have the guts to walk out, but several did. Later Dara's father (divorced) came out and apologized for what his ex-wife had done.

That's *awful*! How messed up does a family have to be to let religion screw things up like that?

Son of the Suns · Post by **Son of the Suns** » 2004-07-23 09:37pm

How exactly were they being vultures? These people could have simply been offering their support to a family that had experienced a loss in the best way they knew how. You might disagree with their way of helping but it doesn't mean they were being opportunistic.

Son of the Suns · Post by **Son of the Suns** » 2004-07-23 09:45pm

LadyTevar wrote:
Superman wrote:As most of you know, I was a mortician's assistant for a few years in a funeral home. During many of the pentecostal type funerals, the preacher would often go into his recruitment spiel and then say how the deceased would want to the unsaved to become saved. It was fucking pathetic.

I remember one funeral took place in a small church in a smaller town near Chico. This particular dead dude had lots of friends, so the preacher found himself talking to 150 people rather than his usual 40 or so. He wasted no time in finding the people who were crying the most and offering the "salvation of Jesus" to them. "Religious vultures" is a great description of them.
At a pagan friend's funeral, her mother brought in a Church of (God/Christ/whatever) preacher to preside. He turned it into a 'if you don't know Christ you're going to hell' sermon. All of Dara's friends were appalled. Dara and her mother had parted religious views years before, and her mom *knew* she was pagan like many of her friends. But here was this preacher trying to turn Dara's funeral into an altar call. I didn't have the guts to walk out, but several did. Later Dara's father (divorced) came out and apologized for what his ex-wife had done.

That is bad. I think people need to state what kind of funeral they would like to have in their wills and such so this kind of situation doesn't happen.

I know quite a few people though who want religious funerals who are aethiests as some additional "fire insurence" just in case they are wrong about God and such, just like going and getting baptized and attending church on easter and christmas.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-07-23 09:49pm

Son of the Suns wrote:That is bad. I think people need to state what kind of funeral they would like to have in their wills and such so this kind of situation doesn't happen.

I know quite a few people though who want religious funerals who are aethiests as some additional "fire insurence" just in case they are wrong about God and such, just like going and getting baptized and attending church on easter and christmas.

I told my family that I don't care what they do at my funeral. They can "God it up" all they want so long as they tell the truth and point out that I was an atheist. I'll leave it to the attendees to wrestle with their faith and decide for themselves whether or not I'm burning in Hell for that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-23 09:50pm

Son of the Suns wrote:How exactly were they being vultures? These people could have simply been offering their support to a family that had experienced a loss in the best way they knew how.

And smothering them, and removing them from their original family and friends ... this is standard cult behaviour, but when Christians do it, it's considered "helping". Not all Christians act like this, but the ones that do are vultures.

You might disagree with their way of helping but it doesn't mean they were being opportunistic.

What would it take for you to consider them opportunistic, then?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-23 09:52pm

Son of the Suns wrote: That is bad. I think people need to state what kind of funeral they would like to have in their wills and such so this kind of situation doesn't happen.

I know quite a few people though who want religious funerals who are aethiests as some additional "fire insurence" just in case they are wrong about God and such, just like going and getting baptized and attending church on easter and christmas.

Atheists like that a hilarious

Once I'm dead I hardly care what happens at my funeral; however it says alot about people's ridiculous convictions when they God up an atheists funeral. Its like their saying 'our son/daughter/cat was a good Christian on the inside!' because they're so horribly insecure.

Son of the Suns · Post by **Son of the Suns** » 2004-07-23 10:02pm

Darth Wong wrote: And smothering them, and removing them from their original family and friends ... this is standard cult behaviour, but when Christians do it, it's considered "helping". Not all Christians act like this, but the ones that do are vultures.

There is nothing in this article that indicates that they were smothering them. One long time friend said that the church people were sticking to them like flies, which to tell you the truth sounds more like a case of jealousy than anything else. It doesn't say anything about the church removing them from their friends and family. It does, however, say that "Cecilia's slaying has altered his relationship with the family."

What would it take for you to consider them opportunistic, then?

If they had told the family that only through joining their church that their daughter could be saved or something like that, but nothing in this article indicates that they did that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-23 10:18pm

Son of the Suns wrote:There is nothing in this article that indicates that they were smothering them. One long time friend said that the church people were sticking to them like flies, which to tell you the truth sounds more like a case of jealousy than anything else. It doesn't say anything about the church removing them from their friends and family. It does, however, say that "Cecilia's slaying has altered his relationship with the family."

In other words, their friends and family don't have much more contact with them, and they're constantly surrounded by church members. What part of this do you not understand?

What would it take for you to consider them opportunistic, then?
If they had told the family that only through joining their church that their daughter could be saved or something like that, but nothing in this article indicates that they did that.

Since all churches tell people that only through joining the church can they find salvation yadda yadda yadda, this is a foregone conclusion.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-23 10:42pm

No, the churches tell the parents that they themselves can be saved through worship bla bla bla. Telling them that they can retroactively save their daughter is something I've never heard, and I think that's what SotS was referring to.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-23 10:48pm

Howedar wrote:No, the churches tell the parents that they themselves can be saved through worship bla bla bla. Telling them that they can retroactively save their daughter is something I've never heard, and I think that's what SotS was referring to.

They probably told them that their daughter died in a "state of grace" because she was so young and innocent, and they can join her in Heaven if they accept Jesus. In any case, the fact that the family is having diminished contact with friends and family is a classic warning sign for cultish behaviour no matter which way you slice it.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-07-23 10:48pm

Howedar wrote:No, the churches tell the parents that they themselves can be saved through worship bla bla bla. Telling them that they can retroactively save their daughter is something I've never heard, and I think that's what SotS was referring to.

Do you know much about Catholicism? Buying indulgences and praying to get your deceased loved ones out of purgatory quicker was a major part of the religion for several centuries. As far as I’m aware the sale of indulgences ended a long time ago but praying for the deceased and paying others to do the same is still a well established and common part of the religion.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-24 12:49am

Plekhanov wrote:
Howedar wrote:No, the churches tell the parents that they themselves can be saved through worship bla bla bla. Telling them that they can retroactively save their daughter is something I've never heard, and I think that's what SotS was referring to.
Do you know much about Catholicism? Buying indulgences and praying to get your deceased loved ones out of purgatory quicker was a major part of the religion for several centuries. As far as I’m aware the sale of indulgences ended a long time ago but praying for the deceased and paying others to do the same is still a well established and common part of the religion.

Since he is Catholic, I imagine he would. Since the demoniation this couple joined is evangelical Baptist, which does NOT believe in Purgatory, I don't see how this is remotely relevant. For that matter, even if they did become Catholics, your kids can't join the church retroactively after they're dead if you convert, which means, at best, they're going to Limbo. You can pray until the sun goes cold and they're never getting out.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-07-24 01:09am

Suddenly the asshole antics of Pastor Phelps don't seem so uniquely vile. These people are ghouls. My only objection to calling them "vultures" is the fact that vultures feed on the dead because they have to and provide a useful service to the ecology. These "christians" are scumbags.

Stephen King of all people had an interesting theory about why certain Jesus-Christers were so fervently against contraception, abortion, suicide and even voluntary euthanasia. Eggs, sperm and fetuses that don't come to term can't be baptised or raised to be good little Christians. Elderly people and those who are terminally ill and others who decide to check out of this world early can't be given last rites or other blessings. In all these cases, the church feels cheated of followers or donors or both.

Three years ago, a longtime friend of mine died. His family was Catholic. They found out the day of his funeral that the priest wouldn't show because rumor had it that he had killed himself. I have never in my life seen something first hand that was so gratuitously and pointlessly cruel. It was left to me and his brother and sisters to try to say something at the funeral.

So phony christians who chase coffins and grieving families are even worse than shyster lawyers who chase ambulances. I consider them just as bad as corpse-fuckers and cannibals.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-07-24 02:42am

Not entirely on subject, but since evangelising at funerals has come up:

At my best friend's funeral the pastor's wife of the "progressive" Christian church the thing was held at started reading Psalm 23, then stopped and asked everyone to imagine my friend reading it aloud from the Bible.

There was a moment of shocked silence.

Then somebody gave a loud, derisive snort of laughter, and the whole place busted out laughing...

Poor pastor and wife were visibly shaken by our unwashed, heathen behavior, it was fucking GREAT! They were less than thrilled about the bottles of Tuaca being passed around later at the graveside service, as well.
Who the fuck they thought they were, telling US how to behave at OUR friend's funeral when they didn't know him, nor had they ever even met him, is beyond me.
At least they provided some sorely needed comic relief.

Son of the Suns · Post by **Son of the Suns** » 2004-07-24 05:20am

Darth Wong wrote:
Son of the Suns wrote:There is nothing in this article that indicates that they were smothering them. One long time friend said that the church people were sticking to them like flies, which to tell you the truth sounds more like a case of jealousy than anything else. It doesn't say anything about the church removing them from their friends and family. It does, however, say that "Cecilia's slaying has altered his relationship with the family."
In other words, their friends and family don't have much more contact with them, and they're constantly surrounded by church members. What part of this do you not understand?

It says nothing about the family, just one friend. If the Zhang's choose to spend time with the church members that is their choice, and it certainly doesn't mean that they have become cult members.

Since all churches tell people that only through joining the church can they find salvation yadda yadda yadda, this is a foregone conclusion.

I meant if the church had told them that the daughter would be found safely if they joined.